Palingate just got better, the baby daddy

[Lostlover]

And I don't mean to belabor it but to further clarify my comment about your joke, Soilwork, you've never pretended to be on a mission of Unity and that's why I apologized for coming down on you for it. You're no hypocrite.

But my point is the "unity" element of those kinds of jokes is the unifying of "us" versus the outcasting of "them," which has, and continues to be, a troubling characteristic of Obama support. It's a "unity" that is, in reality, divisive. That's how I see Obama and Bush as similar in the way they claim to be "uniters." They unite their crowd against a common "enemy" who are neighbors, fellow Americans, and in the case of Obama supporters members of the same party. That's not what I believe the Democratic Party should be about, and it's not the way to win general elections against a unified Republican Party.

And being fair, if Obama supporters happily chuckle at redneck jokes then they have no business being offended by African American jokes being told about the Obamas. If Democrats continue on as many have about Palin, her daughter and the boyfriend, they have only themselves to blame if some elements of the GOP get ugly about race or something else personal about the Obamas and their daughters.

Sour grapes. Sour grapes.

As with Iman and Kennyworth, I encourage you to vote for McCain. You've been getting it wrong all along, so please continue to do so.

 

[MystikWizard]

Sour grapes. Sour grapes.

As with Iman and Kennyworth, I encourage you to vote for McCain. You've been getting it wrong all along, so please continue to do so.

Kennyworth at least has enough sense not to vote for McCain, as he doesn't believe in his policies or his principles. I can't say the same for SourGrapes NickCole and bitter Iman, who are willing to abandon their principles to support candidate's ideas who they disagree with.

 

[Lostlover]

And I don't mean to belabor it but to further clarify my comment about your joke, Soilwork, you've never pretended to be on a mission of Unity and that's why I apologized for coming down on you for it. You're no hypocrite.

[But my point is the "unity" element of those kinds of jokes is the unifying of "us" versus the outcasting of "them," which has, and continues to be, a troubling characteristic of Obama support. It's a "unity" that is, in reality, divisive. That's how I see Obama and Bush as similar in the way they claim to be "uniters." They unite their crowd against a common "enemy" who are neighbors, fellow Americans, and in the case of Obama supporters members of the same party. That's not what I believe the Democratic Party should be about, and it's not the way to win general elections against a unified Republican Party.

And being fair, if Obama supporters happily chuckle at redneck jokes then they have no business being offended by African American jokes being told about the Obamas. If Democrats continue on as many have about Palin, her daughter and the boyfriend, they have only themselves to blame if some elements of the GOP get ugly about race or something else personal about the Obamas and their daughters.

Actually, that is false. 37% of Dems prefer another candidate besides Obama to be nominee. 38% of Republicans prefer someone other than McCain. I just saw this on CNN by that white haired guy with the glasses.

Here's an image that Hillary supporters are coming over to Obama. The last few hold outs are the gutter of the gutter.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/109957/Obama-Gains-Among-Former-Clinton-Supporters.aspx

Again, I ask and beg that you vote for McCain. No one will baby you here.

And I never was about unity too as you can tell. I'm about making the right decision for you without being told how to vote.

I'm going to guess that you're going to act like this post doesn't exist.

 

[Lostlover]

Kennyworth at least has enough sense not to vote for McCain, as he doesn't believe in his policies or his principles. I can't say the same for SourGrapes NickCole and bitter Iman, who are willing to abandon their principles to support candidate's ideas who they disagree with.

That is true. That is true. I think as with Lancelva, that Kennyworth is probably a nice guy just a little wrong when it comes to politics. I think he views the implications of this election as serious for this country.

But I totally agree with you.

 

[Lostlover]

There was a New Yorker cover not that long ago that was satirical, do we need to go back and look at the outrage that caused from the Obama camp and Obama supporters? And the vast majority of the population? The fact that something is designed to be or claimed to be satirical doesn’t automatically make it any less offensive or any more acceptable.

Bigotry is bigotry, despite what people here seem to believe it doesn’t work on a sliding scale. Discriminating against somebody who is black is not worse then discriminating against someone who is old or white or any other group you care to mention. It should not be the group that denotes the severity of the discrimination but the act itself - that’s the very basis of a free and equal society. I do not and will not buy into this flawed notion that being nasty to or about a black guy or a gay guy is worse than being nasty to or about anyone else.

Not to be an ass, but you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know about race relations in America to comment on.

Redneck jokes are okay. Rednecks aren't being ridiculed because of their race but because of the way the live their lives.

Just like prostitutes. Prostitutes are trashy people. And they come in every color or colour.

 

[NickCole]

I'm going to guess that you're going to act like this post doesn't exist.

Rather than respond to a post with comments directed at me like

The last few hold outs are the gutter of the gutter.

and

Again, I ask and beg that you vote for McCain.

it's best that I act like this post doesn't exist.

 

[robertstar]

And it doesn't have to make it less offensive or any more acceptable in claiming it to be satire---satire doesn't have to pull punches. So, if you care to be so desperate as to bring up the New Yorker cover, then go right ahead. I assure you, being that I actually live in this country, you won't win the "vast majority of the population" argument.

Obama campaign spokesman Bill Burton says: “The New Yorker may think, as one of their staff explained to us, that their cover is a satirical lampoon of the caricature Senator Obama's right-wing critics have tried to create. But most readers will see it as tasteless and offensive. And we agree.

McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds quickly e-mailed: “We completely agree with the Obama campaign, it’s tasteless and offensive.”

Just an example of the two campaign responses to the New Yorker cover.

Bringing up the cover was not for the record an act of desperation as you claim but to highlight the different way in which people react to offensive satire depending on the group, when that shouldn’t be a deciding factor. Should we for example expect statements from both campaigns slamming those who use discriminatory redneck satire over the coming weeks and months? Judging by the comments already surfacing there will be no shortage of it.

Flawed rebuttal, as expected. It would help if you actually respond to what is said instead of these strawmen. Things made by choice, being a Republican/Democrat, liberal/conservative, Christian/Muslim/Atheist/Agnostic/etc, chaste/slut, redneck/elitist---they aren't the same as being black or a woman or old or fat, which is why I agreed with your point regarding calling McCain 'gramps', even if you wrongly gave chance1 a freebie he didn't deserve. But it is evident you do play favorites, like NickCole, in the anti-Obama hysteria. That is why sometimes humor is harder for some categories or at the expense at certain material than it is for others.

You said (and I quote) And, btw, being a redneck or Republican or conservative is not equal to being gay or black or old, so your argument doesn't add up.

You believe a flawed response to that claim is to argue that discrimination is discrimination regardless of the group being discriminated against? You believe that suggesting it is not the group but the act that dictates how serious the discrimination is, is a flawed response? The fact that you disagree with what is being said does not make it a flawed response, the fact that you believe making a racist joke is more offensive than making a redneck joke does not mean that someone suggesting the two are equally offensive is providing a ‘flawed response’.

However from someone who believes that someone has control over where they’re born and the effect the economic conditions of that area has one their life I would expect no less. The poor chose to be poor, right? The ironic thing is that you then argue that those who are fat don’t choose to be fat, that’s apparently something they have absolutely no control over. Your argument doesn’t even begin to add up.

And for what it's worth, the very basis of a free and equal society is the capacity to say what you want without causing harm to others, which is why at least in the US we have the freedom of speech. And when it comes to humor, I think of Lewis Black, a Jew, who, without shame, admits he'd love a good Holocaust joke. Or Bugs Bunny, referencing someone else, said: "Well, like the man says, never take life too seriously. You'll never get out of it alive." (Source: Rabbit's Feat, 1960)

A free and equal society is born of the ideas at play in its name, namely that those within it are both free and equal.

The concept that to discriminate against a black man is more serious than to discriminate against a poor man is completely at odds with the concept that your society is both free and equal. As I said discrimination is discrimination and it isn’t the group being discriminated against that decides the seriousness of it but the act itself.

To deny a black man a job because is black is just as serious denying a redneck a job because he’s a redneck.

To point and laugh at the redneck for being a redneck is just as serious as to point and laugh at the black man for being black.

 

[MystikWizard]

Let me go on record as saying I could give a fuck who "Lostlover" thinks I should vote for,and what I have been ''getting wrong''..

His arguments are rarely based in reality,and I don't take advise from people I belive are fanatics.

That said, McSame's selection of a crazed fanatic,detached from reality ,have made it clear that the Christian right, recognizing ''one of their own'' will be out in force on election day.

While I was NEVER an enthusiastic supporter of Senator Obama ,I think he will need all the votes he can get,and I will be voting for him.

This is not a capitulation,to Obama or his more rabid supporters.At this point,this campaign has a surreal,soap opera quality to it.The haters feel ''energized'' by this deranged,crooked womans addition to the republlican ticket.What a suprise.

I'm going to do what I can to help Obama defeat the enemies of our community.For right now that means a modest cash donation,and my vote.

Much respect, Kennyworth.

Obama, as most people know wasn't my first candidate of choice, either ... but when it became clear to me the reckless path the Republican Party intended on continuing to go down, I had enough and left. There are stark differences between a McCain Presidency and an Obama Presidency ... and if it is a lesser than 2 evils vote ... then so be it, given those contrasts. A McCain Presidency and another 4 years of Neocon rule during these times would be disastrous for the country.

 

[NickCole]

At this point,this campaign has a surreal,soap opera quality to it.

It sure does!

Up is down and down is up; by far the most bizarre campaign I've ever seen.

I still need more information before I make up my mind about how to vote -- and no doubt more information will keep rolling in.

BTW, good to see you again my friend.

 

[Lostlover]

Your right about that Midnight77.Kennyworth doesn't support republican candidates.

Let me go on record as saying I could give a fuck who "Lostlover" thinks I should vote for,or what I have been ''getting wrong''..

His arguments are rarely based in reality,and I don't take advise from people I belive are fanatics.

That said, McSame's selection of a crazed fanatic,detached from reality ,have made it clear that the Christian right, recognizing ''one of their own'' will be out in force on election day.Thats not good for us.

While I was NEVER an enthusiastic supporter of Senator Obama ,I think he will need all the votes he can get,and I will be voting for him.

This is not a capitulation,to Obama or his more rabid supporters.At this point,this campaign has a surreal,soap opera quality to it.The haters feel ''energized'' by this deranged,crooked womans addition to the republlican ticket.What a suprise.

I'm going to do what I can to help Obama defeat the enemies of our community.For right now that means a modest cash donation,and my vote.

It's could NOT give a fuck.

But power to you Kenny.



Your heart is in the right place especially with the last paragraph.

Your whole realization about the Repubs didn't take me or anyone else on here for you to come to that conclusion. That's what I was talking about with people making their own decisions without being told.


Kenny, let's forget our past disagreements? Seriously, no sarcasm or anything.

 

[swerve]

^You should have listened to Bill ORielly's radio show today...

The twisted convoluted path he led his listeners on -- in SUPPORT of Palin -- was AMAZING!!!

He ALSO suggested that his audience SHOULDN'T participate in "liberal" forums (I'm ASSUMING that would ALSO mean JUB) because they are BETTER than us...

OH...

He ALSO said Palin is OUT OF FREEBIES -- One more BOMB -- and she's OUTTA THERE...

 

[Lostlover]

Redneck is a lifestyle. Not all whites are rednecks. It's a behavior, not an ethnicity. Once again, Robertstar is out of his league here.

 

[RandomAccess]

I think we've been had ...... click on "disclosure" underneath the "about me" tab.

Um. . . I'm feeling a little. . . um, little right now.

 

[Raincoat Massacre]

Has anyone gone to that Blog link that Random posted?

Holy shizzles, Bristol’s pregnant! I don’t think her mom knows yet.

Idiot...aim for the face...lol

 

[smelter]

^ Its a joke .....

http://levijohnston.com/Blog/disclosure/

 

[Raincoat Massacre]

I know. ICO brought that to my attention. But I still though that the facial comment was appropriate.lol

 

[NickCole]

Pathetic. African American is an ethnicity. Redneck is a pop culture term. When Jeff Foxworthy did "You might be a redneck if..." did you use that as a justification of joking about blacks? Find a better angle dude. If you want to be racist, go ahead. If you're just upset that a black person is joking about rednecks, shouldn't you be just as upset about white people joking about rednecks or do you think redneck jokes fall under the 1920's "whites only" credo?

Redneck is not a pop culture term. It goes back to the 17th Century. Modern American usage goes back at least to the 1920s.

As for Foxworthy, comedians using words and stereotype behavior they self-identify with is a time-honored tradition. Joan Rivers famously does material about Jews. Chris Rock does it about blacks, or as he puts it, "n-----s." Lots of gays and lesbians do it about gays. It's one thing for a redneck to joke about rednecks or an African American to joke about blacks, but it's different when we're talking about others. Even something like fat jokes are normally recognized as acceptably funny when an overweight person tells them but not so much when someone thin and beautiful tells them. It's the difference between self-deprecating humor and being mean and hurtful.

Your attempt to draw a distinction between ethnicity and redneck (which is a term that can be as derisive as n----r, and is perjorative when used by outsiders but "owned" by rednecks with the same kind of defiance and pride as n-----r is by some African Americans) is a distinction without difference because the point is the use of words and stereotype to denigrate and dismiss individuals and groups of people.

Yeah, cuz when Jeff Foxworthy did "You might be a redneck if....", everyone got SOOO outraged.

Exactly -- no more outraged than when Chris Rock does his n----r stand-up. But rednecks would be offended if Chris Rock did Foxworthy's redneck schtick and blacks would be offended if Foxworthy did Rock's n----r material.

Comparing "redneck" to nigger displays a vast amount of ignorance. One is a racial pejorative tied to hundreds of years of oppression, the other is a pop-culture term. Did you sleep through all four years of high-school or just during social studies?

You learned that redneck is a pop culture term during your four years of high school social studies? Which part of pop culture do you think the term "redneck" comes from -- do you think Jeff Foxworthy coined it?

 

[Spensed]

^ A lot of words can be used offensively, if that's the clear intent, e.g. fat or even skinny. But, in ordinary usage, they're not weighted with the the same derogatory and/or historically offensive intent as in faggot or racial slurs.

So, while you're right on one level, on another level, you can't straight-jacket linguistic usage with your own version of what's politically corrrect or, at least, people aren't going to pay much attention to you trying to do it.

When Leno jokes about rednecks, it may well be in a negative way, but it has nothing like the significance of using words that many people would regard as offensive. So there, while there may be not distinction in theory, there is a big distinction in accepted usage.

Obviously, if enough people begin to feel like you do, that usage might change. But I haven't seen many signs of that with respect to redneck. And my guess is neither have you.
​

 

[NickCole]

Obviously, if enough people begin to feel like you do, that usage might change. But I haven't seen many signs of that with respect to redneck. And my guess is neither have you.​

Of course not.

Rednecks have no power and they are treated disrespectfully because they allow it.

African Americans were in that same position before Civil Rights. Women were in that position before feminism, gays were in that position before Stonewall.

That doesn't make it right. And my point stands. Treat people the way you want to be treated. If your candidate is African American and you don't want stereotype slurs used against him then don't use stereotype slurs against his opponent.

Class, race and gender have long been used by privileged white heterosexual men, in recent times traditionally Republicans, to control by denigrating and dividing. Seeing blacks and women and gays, Democrats, use this same divisive tool is disheartening. We used to be the ones who knew better, who understood how destructive this is and fought FOR the vulnerable individual and group. So along comes Obama who's supposedly selling Hope and Change and Unity, and suddenly Democrats get down in the class, race, gender gutter.

 

[Spensed]

^ With all due respect, I do think that that's nonsense. It's takes a valid issue and trivializes it to absurd levels of political correctness.

Rednecks aren't a race, tribe , orientation or objects of irrational hatred or bigotry. It's a word like surfers or valley girls or MILFs or rich suger daddies, etc., etc. Sure these group words can be used offensively. But no one bothers too much about it, not because "rednecks" are powerless and treated with disrespect, but because it's just a group word that, for the most part, you can either choose to identify with or not.

As I think I said before, if you applied your logic, you'd never be allowed to use any collective noun because some individual or individuals might take exception to being caught up in it.

By the way, so you can be true to your own principles, can you stop using all "privileged heterosexual white males" as a denigrating and divisive overgeneralization that some of them might find offensive. LOL.