President Obama addresses the nation, declares war. . .

[Benvolio]

There is some evidence suggesting that FDR knew the attack was coming and deliberately did not pass on the information. Given that some serious historians believe that, it's not an untenable position to hold. There's also evidence that the British knew Pearl Harbor was being targeted and kept the information from Washington.

BTW, my conclusion on it so far is that one of FDR's people knew, and didn't pass it on to FDR.

FDR might have let the Japanese to take a ship or two, but I don't think he would allow them to have the entire fleet. My point was that he allowed the fleet to be kept together when he knew a Japanese attack was a distinct possibility. Again, if he had been a Republican you would still be hearing the howls.

 

[xbuzzerx]

FDR might have let the Japanese to take a ship or two, but I don't think he would allow them to have the entire fleet. My point was that he allowed the fleet to be kept together when he knew a Japanese attack was a distinct possibility. Again, if he had been a Republican you would still be hearing the howls.

Actually I am fairly sure that aside from far-right Republicans still buttsore about New Deal and hellbent on dismantling the safety net (which is completely against the will of the voters, btw) no one today is "howling" about FDR or of any President of either political party from that era.

So, no. No one would be "howling" about how WWII started just based on a label switch of FDR between Democrat and Republican.

 

[kallipolis]

There is some evidence suggesting that FDR knew the attack was coming and deliberately did not pass on the information. Given that some serious historians believe that, it's not an untenable position to hold. There's also evidence that the British knew Pearl Harbor was being targeted and kept the information from Washington.

BTW, my conclusion on it so far is that one of FDR's people knew, and didn't pass it on to FDR.

There are many conspiracy theories...and I doubt whether we will ever know the truth.

British Intelligence was already working closely with their American counterparts there being no reason to with hold vital intelligence on the movements of the Japanese Navy:

This article expands on this topic with the following quote evidence that British Naval Intelligence had plotted the course of the Japanese fleet through their listening posts in Hong Kong, processed through their Australian associates:

http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/sixmyths.htm

The 1989 BBC documentary Sacrifice at Pearl Harbor presents evidence that at least two Western intelligence services intercepted the “East Wind Rain” execute message on December 4. The documentary includes interviews with Eric Nave and Ralph Briggs, two cryptographers who were involved with the interception and processing of the “Winds” code message (Nave) and the subsequent “East Wind Rain” execute message (Briggs). The “Winds” code message explained the code words that would be used to signal war with America, England, or Russia. “East Wind Rain” meant war with America (however, some who saw it interpreted it as meaning war with both America and England).

Nave was a senior Australian cryptographer and was so renowned that he was sometimes called "the father of British code breaking in the Far East." Nave was on duty in Melbourne, Australia, when the “Winds” code message was broadcast on November 19. Nave helped transmit a copy of the message to Commodore J. W. Durnford of the Australian Navy. In 1991, Nave teamed up with James Rusbridger to write Betrayal at Pearl Harbor. Nave and Rusbridger note that the “East Wind Rain” execute message was intercepted on December 4 by Lt. Charles Dixon, a cryptographer with the New Zealand Army, at a listening post near Hong Kong:

News broadcasts from Tokyo that carried the "execute" weather forecasts were designed to be heard around the world—in Britain, Western Europe, Australia, and South America—and were repeated several times during the day of December 4. They had been easily picked up in Melbourne, and FECB [British Far East Combined Bureau] had no problem hearing them at their powerful intercept station on Stonecutters Island in Hong Kong, which could eavesdrop on everything sent by radio from Japan. . . .

Both parts of the Winds message [the code and the subsequent execute] were received by Lieutenant Charles Dixon, RNZVR [Royal New Zealand Volunteer Reserve], a code breaker stationed at Stonecutters Island in 1941. After the surrender of Hong Kong, on 25 December 1941, Dixon was a prisoner of war with other officers, including Lieutenant Cedric Brown, RNVR [Royal Naval Reserve]. Dixon told Brown of receiving both parts of the message, and how surprised he was that the Americans were caught unprepared at Pearl Harbor because of the information he had been receiving and decoding in Hong Kong on behalf of FECB, which he assumed was being passed on to the Americans. Charles Dixon died in New Zealand on 10 June 1985 at the age of seventy-seven. Cedric Brown was the senior naval officer on the C-in-C's staff in charge of codes and ciphers.[19]

 

[TX-Beau]

Actually I am fairly sure that aside from far-right Republicans still buttsore about New Deal and hellbent on dismantling the safety net (which is completely against the will of the voters, btw) no one today is "howling" about FDR or of any President of either political party from that era.

So, no. No one would be "howling" about how WWII started just based on a label switch of FDR between Democrat and Republican.

It's part of the propaganda, you have to choose team red, or team blue, who are at war forever and ever and always have been.

 

[nafhoosier]

It's part of the propaganda, you have to choose team red, or team blue, who are at war forever and ever and always have been.

People who complain about propaganda spread equal amounts of fear inducing propaganda of their own.

Don't you think?

 

[TX-Beau]

No, not really, what does that even mean?

 

[Kulindahr]

Quote Originally Posted by Benvolio
FDR might have let the Japanese to take a ship or two, but I don't think he would allow them to have the entire fleet. My point was that he allowed the fleet to be kept together when he knew a Japanese attack was a distinct possibility. Again, if he had been a Republican you would still be hearing the howls.

Actually I am fairly sure that aside from far-right Republicans still buttsore about New Deal and hellbent on dismantling the safety net (which is completely against the will of the voters, btw) no one today is "howling" about FDR or of any President of either political party from that era.

So, no. No one would be "howling" about how WWII started just based on a label switch of FDR between Democrat and Republican.

Duh -- when we get attacked, no one cares about what party the president belongs to.

 

[Kulindahr]

British Intelligence was already working closely with their American counterparts there being no reason to with hold vital intelligence on the movements of the Japanese Navy:

They had a very good reason: Churchill wanted the US in the war. He was almost ecstatic when he heard of the attack.

 

[kallipolis]

They had a very good reason: Churchill wanted the US in the war. He was almost ecstatic when he heard of the attack.

The United States Armed Forces had been preparing for war with the Axis powers from 1939....it was a matter of timing when the United States entered the war....Japan duly obliged by attacking the US fleet at Pearl Harbor....Germany declared war on the United States...power drunk fools believing that they could take on the United States, the British Commonwealth, the Soviet Union...and win.

 

[Stardreamer]

The United States Armed Forces had been preparing for war with the Axis powers from 1939....it was a matter of timing when the United States entered the war....Japan duly obliged by attacking the US fleet at Pearl Harbor....Germany declared war on the United States...power drunk fools believing that they could take on the United States, the British Commonwealth, the Soviet Union...and win.

True thought I'm sure if FDR could have had things his way, Japan would not have been involved like this; he wanted to get into the war in Europe not the Pacific but the nature of the Japanese attack focused the American interest there. If Hitler had shown a little sense and refrained from declaring war on the US, FDR would have had a harder time selling the Europe First strategy.

 

[xbuzzerx]

No, not really, what does that even mean?

He thought you were disagreeing with me so he was chirping in with something unrelated. He didn't realize you were commenting on the way Ben sees history.

 

[nafhoosier]

He thought you were disagreeing with me so he was chirping in with something unrelated. He didn't realize you were commenting on the way Ben sees history.

Nope.

Just saying that there is as much "anti-war" propaganda that include fear tactics as there is "pro-war" propaganda. Sounds pretty related to what he was saying to me (why he couldn't clearly read that is beyond me).

You didn't even cross my mind when I posted that, or ever, to be honest.

Unless you mention me personally in posts rather than debate, which you can't stop doing.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Nope.

Just saying that there is as much "anti-war" propaganda that include fear tactics as there is "pro-war" propaganda. Sounds pretty related to what he was saying to me (why he couldn't clearly read that is beyond me).

You didn't even cross my mind when I posted that, or ever, to be honest.

Unless you mention me personally in posts rather than debate, which you can't stop doing.

It's a trait of we terrorists.

 

[cgymike]

But George Washington said terrorism is illegal.

 

[T-Rexx]

FDR might have let the Japanese to take a ship or two, but I don't think he would allow them to have the entire fleet. My point was that he allowed the fleet to be kept together when he knew a Japanese attack was a distinct possibility. Again, if he had been a Republican you would still be hearing the howls.

If FDR had been a Republican, American forces would presumably have been tied up in Granada, Iraq, Pakistan, and God knows where else (if it were up to John McCain, we would currently be at war in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Ukraine, and Georgia). American forces would not therefore have been available for the Japanese to attack at Pearl Harbor.

Republicans, for whatever reason, like to attack people. Republicans believe that the best way to achieve peace is by starting wars.

 

[Keeland]

If FDR had been a Republican, American forces would presumably have been tied up in Granada, Iraq, Pakistan, and God knows where else (if it were up to John McCain, we would currently be at war in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Ukraine, and Georgia).

You forgot Canada and Mexico.

 

[palbert]

Aside from it's fun to bomb the bad guys, has anyone figured out how we are justifying this war in Iraq and Syria?

US ties itself in legal knots to cover shifting rationale for Syria strikes [theguardian.com]

An the shifting rationale applies to both Congress and the UN.

 

[Benvolio]

If FDR had been a Republican, American forces would presumably have been tied up in Granada, Iraq, Pakistan, and God knows where else (if it were up to John McCain, we would currently be at war in Libya, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan, Ukraine, and Georgia). American forces would not therefore have been available for the Japanese to attack at Pearl Harbor.

Republicans, for whatever reason, like to attack people. Republicans believe that the best way to achieve peace is by starting wars.

You lie. Democrat Presidents led the country into WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, and now, Syria.

 

[xbuzzerx]

You lie. Democrat Presidents led the country into WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, and now, Syria.

Well at least all of those countries have one thing in common. They aren't targets randomly picked after a totally different country attacked us.

I suppose if we did have a Republican President, now would be a great time to fight Venezuela so we could end the threat of ISIS.

 

[T-Rexx]

You lie. Democrat Presidents led the country into WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, and now, Syria.

You Republicans are every bit as good at history as you are at science.