On Topic Discussion Pride and prejudice? Race tinges LGBT celebrations

[TickTockMan]

I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread for this, but I feel it is a slightly different topic than the others.

Gay pride marches in New York City, San Francisco and in between this weekend will have plenty of participants — and also protests directed at them from other members of the LGBT community, speaking out against what they see as increasingly corporate celebrations that prioritize the experiences of gay white men and ignore issues facing black and brown LGBT people.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/pride-events-protests-claim-prejudice-exclusion-042424789.html




I honestly get where the protesters are coming from and I agree with what they are protesting. What I don't get is why they are harassing PRIDEs. For some of it it makes sense:

That divide has led to controversy when attempts have been made to address race, as in Philadelphia. The city drew criticism last summer when activists raised concerns that the Gayborhood — the city's main gay enclave — discriminated against blacks. Gay blacks complained of dress codes banning Timberlands and sweatpants, of not being served in a timely manner at bars and of being stopped and asked for identification at clubs while white customers walked in unbothered.

But in other areas I don't get it:

In Minneapolis, organizers of Sunday's Twin Cities Pride Parade initially asked the police department to limit participation following the acquittal of police officer Jeronimo Yanez in the death of Castile. But organizers changed their minds after meeting Thursday with Janee Harteau, the city's openly gay police chief who called the decision divisive and hurtful to LGBT officers.

I am not sure what Castile has to do with PRIDE. They tried the same crap at Portland PRIDE. The police should be at PRIDE to help keep order and to celebrate with us.

It seems to me BLM is trying to latch on to PRIDE in a way that is more offensive to me than in a way I would support them. They don't want to join us, they want to take over.

 

[swerve]

I have NO PROBLEMS with people using the Pride celebration as a platform to address their grievances.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I have NO PROBLEMS with people using the Pride celebration as a platform to address their grievances.

this. all day this.

sorry to break up your party with, ya know, our cries for justice. frankly our voices are getting hoarse and it's obvious that extreme measures like this HAVE to be taken just to be noticed. at no point in history were the oppressed ever heard when they waited their turn and whispered quietly a gentle "please." we have to make things inconvenient because that's the only way we can get everyone to put their iphones down long enough to hear what we have to say.

i'm usually Mr Pragmatic and try to see things from the other side but all i can think of is how despicable it is that people are upset that their party is being crashed for a cause that is so clearly important. we're not protesting because of bad treatment at Tiffany's, our lives are being taken by police, our children aren't safe and i have a resounding "FUCK YOU" to anyone who thinks that cause isn't worthy of attention anywhere, any time, any place. LGBT of color have been ignored for far too fucking long and being polite is no longer an option.

there is a sickening irony somewhere in here that i can't quite articulate

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

It seems to me BLM is trying to latch on to PRIDE in a way that is more offensive to me than in a way I would support them. They don't want to join us, they want to take over.

this is what i find most disheartening. "THEY". it should be us. i said in another thread, if gay people were being gunned down the way black people are your responses would be 1,000% different. sometimes i feel like as a black man the only purpose i serve for LGBT is my "big black mandingo cawk." my social and political concerns are an inconvenient truth that nobody really has any interest in.

and i can't reiterate how much i hope i'm misinterpreting your "they" because from my seat it looks like you're using it almost like a curse word, i can just feel the disdain through the screen. they. they like, ewwwww THEY. yuck! THEM!

 

[luckynumbah7]

But in other areas I don't get it:

I am not sure what Castile has to do with PRIDE. They tried the same crap at Portland PRIDE. The police should be at PRIDE to help keep order and to celebrate with us.

The article runs off Toronto as the subject matter but you could replace it with any land.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/06/wasnt-discrimination-pride-wouldnt-even-exist/

 

[zoltanspawn]

this. all day this.

sorry to break up your party with, ya know, our cries for justice. frankly our voices are getting hoarse and it's obvious that extreme measures like this HAVE to be taken just to be noticed. at no point in history were the oppressed ever heard when they waited their turn and whispered quietly a gentle "please." we have to make things inconvenient because that's the only way we can get everyone to put their iphones down long enough to hear what we have to say.

i'm usually Mr Pragmatic and try to see things from the other side but all i can think of is how despicable it is that people are upset that their party is being crashed for a cause that is so clearly important. we're not protesting because of bad treatment at Tiffany's, our lives are being taken by police, our children aren't safe and i have a resounding "FUCK YOU" to anyone who thinks that cause isn't worthy of attention anywhere, any time, any place. LGBT of color have been ignored for far too fucking long and being polite is no longer an option.

there is a sickening irony somewhere in here that i can't quite articulate

There's a bit of trap here, being damned if you do and damned if you don't. Too much finesse in your conversation and you're dismissed as effete and quiet. But if you stop being polite, the listener may just become reactionary and actually begin to oppose the message. I worry that anger is counterproductive.

 

[luckynumbah7]

There's a bit of trap here, being damned if you do and damned if you don't. Too much finesse in your conversation and you're dismissed as effete and quiet. But if you stop being polite, the listener may just become reactionary and actually begin to oppose the message. I worry that anger is counterproductive.

I've found eloquence combines with anger quite well. Tho one does need an exquisite sense of timing.

 

[TickTockMan]

this. all day this.

sorry to break up your party with, ya know, our cries for justice. frankly our voices are getting hoarse and it's obvious that extreme measures like this HAVE to be taken just to be noticed. at no point in history were the oppressed ever heard when they waited their turn and whispered quietly a gentle "please." we have to make things inconvenient because that's the only way we can get everyone to put their iphones down long enough to hear what we have to say.

i'm usually Mr Pragmatic and try to see things from the other side but all i can think of is how despicable it is that people are upset that their party is being crashed for a cause that is so clearly important. we're not protesting because of bad treatment at Tiffany's, our lives are being taken by police, our children aren't safe and i have a resounding "FUCK YOU" to anyone who thinks that cause isn't worthy of attention anywhere, any time, any place. LGBT of color have been ignored for far too fucking long and being polite is no longer an option.

there is a sickening irony somewhere in here that i can't quite articulate

this is what i find most disheartening. "THEY". it should be us. i said in another thread, if gay people were being gunned down the way black people are your responses would be 1,000% different. sometimes i feel like as a black man the only purpose i serve for LGBT is my "big black mandingo cawk." my social and political concerns are an inconvenient truth that nobody really has any interest in.

and i can't reiterate how much i hope i'm misinterpreting your "they" because from my seat it looks like you're using it almost like a curse word, i can just feel the disdain through the screen. they. they like, ewwwww THEY. yuck! THEM!

They; as in active BLM members.

Making one cause about another that has very little to nothing to do with the first cause is not going to make allies, but opponents or worse – enemies .

BML has been around for a while now. Why go after PRIDEs? I live in Oregon’s capitol. I have not seen one BML centric event or protest. I have been to events BLM has ASKED to be a part of and we marched and protested together., but that is not what they are doing with PRIDEs. BLM organizers are just trying to take over PRIDE events. I have no problem with BLM being part of PRIDE, but they don’t want to be PART. They want to take over and force PRIDE organizers to give into BLM’s demands, such as no police or no police in uniform.

Furthermore you say they want to draw attention to their cause. That is great. Have their own events. Or if they want to keep interrupting other events, maybe do events that make more sense like July 4th events, Memorial Day Events, Veteran’s Day events, state fairs, etc. At this point it just seems they are bullying the queer community.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

There's a bit of trap here, being damned if you do and damned if you don't. Too much finesse in your conversation and you're dismissed as effete and quiet. But if you stop being polite, the listener may just become reactionary and actually begin to oppose the message. I worry that anger is counterproductive.

yeah there's a word for people like that. assholes. who in good conscience opposes an anti-violence message? who opposes cries against state-sanctioned murder? an irrefutably sinister, selfish, vapid, soulless person, that's who.

 

[TickTockMan]

There's a bit of trap here, being damned if you do and damned if you don't. Too much finesse in your conversation and you're dismissed as effete and quiet. But if you stop being polite, the listener may just become reactionary and actually begin to oppose the message. I worry that anger is counterproductive.

To me that is everything. I think there are much better ways to get their points across.

 

[TickTockMan]

yeah there's a word for people like that. assholes. who in good conscience opposes an anti-violence message? who opposes cries against state-sanctioned murder? an irrefutably sinister, selfish, vapid, soulless person, that's who.

If you want to win, you have to play the game.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Making one cause about another that has very little to nothing to do with the first cause is not going to make allies, but opponents or worse – enemies

that's fucking sick. there's no other way to describe it but sick. these people are fathers and sons and cousins and teachers and children and they're being murdered who THE FUCK opposes that message? no human being worth their weight in salt.

BML has been around for a while now. Why go after PRIDEs? I live in Oregon’s capitol. I have not seen one BML centric event or protest. I have been to events BLM has ASKED to be a part of and we marched and protested together., but that is not what they are doing with PRIDEs. BLM organizers are just trying to take over PRIDE events. I have no problem with BLM being part of PRIDE, but they don’t want to be PART. They want to take over and force PRIDE organizers to give into BLM’s demands, such as no police or no police in uniform.

I dunno if you've heard but police have been shooting black people like it's a video game so raise your hand if you're surprised that LGBT of color don't want police presence at Pride.

Furthermore you say they want to draw attention to their cause. That is great. Have their own events. Or if they want to keep interrupting other events, maybe do events that make more sense like July 4th events, Memorial Day Events, Veteran’s Day events, state fairs, etc. At this point it just seems they are bullying the queer community.

and we're back where we started. THEY. they as opposed to us. the very reason they're crashing your party is because you INSIST on separating yourself from them, you have ZERO anger at the grave injustices being committed against them because it isn't happening to people who look like you.

i dare a single one of you to tell me the response would be the same if police were A) killing gay white men B) getting away with it with the same frequency. and if black america did any less than completely halt their lives to join the cause ohhhh i can just see the vitriol and despicable comments that would flood the internet.

 

[TickTockMan]

The article runs off Toronto as the subject matter but you could replace it with any land.

https://www.thebeaverton.com/2017/06/wasnt-discrimination-pride-wouldnt-even-exist/

I see your point, but now please see mine.


Here is an officer that rode with Dykes on Bikes.

Here are officers flying the PRIDE flag.

Also in the time of Orlando and Trump; do you really want NO police presence at all at PRIDEs?

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

If you want to win, you have to play the game.

it's not a game. and i'm literally scouring the four corners of my mind to find understanding because i cannot for the life of me conceive of how people could oppose this cause. then reality sets in and i remember the politicization of victimhood. we are different demographics so there is an utter lack of concern. and it certainly goes both ways, as a gay man i've sat and watched black america remain silent during a year when trans people were being murdered left and right and there was nary a peep from any of my favorite rappers or authors or public figures. within the BLM movement there is a complete lack of acknowledgment for LGBT.

every fiber of my being wishes that people cared about the world outside their backyard.

 

[TickTockMan]

that's fucking sick. there's no other way to describe it but sick. these people are fathers and sons and cousins and teachers and children and they're being murdered who THE FUCK opposes that message? no human being worth their weight in salt.



I dunno if you've heard but police have been shooting black people like it's a video game so raise your hand if you're surprised that LGBT of color don't want police presence at Pride.



and we're back where we started. THEY. they as opposed to us. the very reason they're crashing your party is because you INSIST on separating yourself from them, you have ZERO anger at the grave injustices being committed against them because it isn't happening to people who look like you.

i dare a single one of you to tell me the response would be the same if police were A) killing gay white men B) getting away with it with the same frequency. and if black america did any less than completely halt their lives to join the cause ohhhh i can just see the vitriol and despicable comments that would flood the internet.

1) "THEY" = active BLM members

2) I am not white. You are trying to lump everyone that doesn't agree with you into a group.

 

[TickTockMan]

it's not a game. and i'm literally scouring the four corners of my mind to find understanding because i cannot for the life of me conceive of how people could oppose this cause. then reality sets in and i remember the politicization of victimhood. we are different demographics so there is an utter lack of concern. and it certainly goes both ways, as a gay man i've sat and watched black america remain silent during a year when trans people were being murdered left and right and there was nary a peep from any of my favorite rappers or authors or public figures. within the BLM movement there is a complete lack of acknowledgment for LGBT.

every fiber of my being wishes that people cared about the world outside their backyard.

Life is a game.


And since you like to skip over it I will say it again. I fully support what BLM stands for. I don't like the way they are going about trying to get more people involved. In the long run I think they are and will be shooting themselves in the foot. You don't gain allies by pissing them off.

 

[zoltanspawn]

yeah there's a word for people like that. assholes. who in good conscience opposes an anti-violence message? who opposes cries against state-sanctioned murder? an irrefutably sinister, selfish, vapid, soulless person, that's who.

I think your agenda is the right one. But what you are saying is that people shouldn't notice rude behavior ("being polite is no longer an option") and instead notice the true moral facts of the case.

Is your goal effective, persuasive communication?

Because most people are going to notice the rude behavior, and not the true moral facts of the case.

If that makes most people assholes, and you can't deal with that idea, I'm afraid you are in for a lot more disappointment in life.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I think your agenda is the right one. But what you are saying is that people shouldn't notice rude behavior ("being polite is no longer an option") and instead notice the true moral facts of the case.

Is your goal effective, persuasive communication?

Because most people are going to notice the rude behavior, and not the true moral facts of the case.

If that makes most people assholes, and you can't deal with that idea, I'm afraid you are in for a lot more disappointment in life.

i'm from chicago and as gay black man living in the bible belt, very little disappoints or surprises me. the goal isn't effective communication, it's for police to stop shooting us. if someone is more concerned with how the message is conveyed than the lives that are being lost almost daily then we really don't need their help anyway. either you get it or you don't, either you're on board or you're not, only an exceptionally and sincerely twisted (or shallow) individual needs a marketing team to sell them on the merits of this cause. we aren't selling vacuums we're protesting police brutality and murder.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Life is a game.


And since you like to skip over it I will say it again. I fully support what BLM stands for. I don't like the way they are going about trying to get more people involved. In the long run I think they are and will be shooting themselves in the foot. You don't gain allies by pissing them off.

well some might consider their effort a success. it got people talking, for better or worse. more people are aware than before they pulled this stunt.

i dunno what they taught you in school but when women wanted to vote, when blacks wanted to sit in the same restaurants, they didn't achieve this by being polite and quiet. you all keep saying good message bad delivery but historically it has always taken some bad-ass rock the boat make people uncomfortable type shit to get the ball rolling because otherwise you all just cover your ears and pretend nothing's happening. people, of any walk of life, divide themselves into little bubbles based on who looks like them and thinks the same, ironically in the social media age it seems people are trying harder than ever to insulate themselves from anyone from a different demographic.

to be frank i've only ever really seen white gay america acknowledge black men in porn, i've got pictures on my hard drive of latin people supporting BLM, middle eastern people supporting BLM, asian people supporting BLM, but white people by and large seem to be completely uninterested if not outright challenging BLM. i would die a happy man if i saw one event hosted by LGBT where this callous and wanton disregard for human life was expressed as a concern. the lack of it doesn't speak well for our humanity, at all.

 

[TickTockMan]

i'm from chicago and as gay black man living in the bible belt, very little disappoints or surprises me. the goal isn't effective communication, it's for police to stop shooting us. if someone is more concerned with how the message is conveyed than the lives that are being lost almost daily then we really don't need their help anyway. either you get it or you don't, either you're on board or you're not, only an exceptionally and sincerely twisted (or shallow) individual needs a marketing team to sell them on the merits of this cause. we aren't selling vacuums we're protesting police brutality and murder.

Effective communication is how that is going to happen though. Most people are indifferent to most things and it will stay that way until someone communicates why they should care.