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PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

Again, how about reading the supporting material instead of quoting an opinionated article. If you want to know why they keep so much secret, look how people react when they find out information they can't understand. They take no time to research, trust blindly in those that tell them what they want to hear, and make no effort to find out the ACTUAL truth for themselves. Since we're living in your fantasy world, I'd rather have the government spying on my every move with a 1% chance of stopping a terrorist attack or preventing some state actor from stealing secrets and sabotaging various aspects of our country than having you sitting behind your keyboard, armed with the knowledge of everything the government does, doing nothing but complaining about whatever the paranoid delusion of the day is. At least in the first scenario we have a 1% chance of some sort of success.

I've read dozens of pages of "supporting material". Apparently, though, you don't read anything at all, but just insist that the government is made of saints who despite the law allowing them to don't do anything to bother the privacy of Americans.
 
I've read dozens of pages of "supporting material". Apparently, though, you don't read anything at all, but just insist that the government is made of saints who despite the law allowing them to don't do anything to bother the privacy of Americans.

Well said.

Every person working in government service always obeys the law and never, never transgresses on the rights of others.
 
I've read dozens of pages of "supporting material". Apparently, though, you don't read anything at all, but just insist that the government is made of saints who despite the law allowing them to don't do anything to bother the privacy of Americans.
Well you've obviously not read the actual documents provided because if you had, you'd see that the law does not allow people in the government to just go snooping willy nilly through your stuff. In fact, if you actually read the documents, you'll find the only way they can get anything from you to begin with is if they are targeting someone overseas and you are communicating with that target (this is what inadvertent means since you like to quote it a lot). At that point, the law requires them to destroy that information unless there is indication of an immediate threat of harm, evidence of a crime that has been or is about to be committed, or that it contains foreign intelligence. Honestly, if you're communicating with terrorists, I want the government to know about it. However, the doesn't means they're spying on you. They're spying on someone else and your communication with that person is going to get pulled in with everything else they're collecting.

The Fourth Amendment was designed to protect citizens in their day-to-day lives, not to shield them from the government in wrongdoing. If you're communicating with a target of the NSA outside of the country, then a) you are not the one being spied on and b) unless there is evidence of wrongdoing, then that communication is removed from the collection. You can argue all day that government workers can abuse this, but this can happen with a warrant as well and you have no evidence at all of this happening and it's nothing but conjecture. In fact, the only employee so far to be shown to have broken the law is Edward Snowden.
 
Well said.

Every person working in government service always obeys the law and never, never transgresses on the rights of others.

Do you have any evidence to prove that they have? People who work for the government are American citizens and are innocent until proven guilty. So if you have evidence that government employees are interfering with [STRIKE]your[/STRIKE] an American's rights, then please present it so they can be held legally accountable. If not, I'd watch where you throw around snarky allegations.
 
That's interesting. More and more it seems that not only is the NSA using terminology in unique ways in order to hide what it's doing, but what they're really doing is being inflated because media people don't understand technical terms. So the obfuscation feeds off itself, ignorance supplementing deception.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is the truth -- probably that the NSA is spying on Americans every time they get "inadvertent" data that requires no warrant, but aren't going to the effort of listening to all of us.

Again, how about reading the supporting material instead of quoting an opinionated article. If you want to know why they keep so much secret, look how people react when they find out information they can't understand. They take no time to research, trust blindly in those that tell them what they want to hear, and make no effort to find out the ACTUAL truth for themselves. Since we're living in your fantasy world, I'd rather have the government spying on my every move with a 1% chance of stopping a terrorist attack or preventing some state actor from stealing secrets and sabotaging various aspects of our country than having you sitting behind your keyboard, armed with the knowledge of everything the government does, doing nothing but complaining about whatever the paranoid delusion of the day is. At least in the first scenario we have a 1% chance of some sort of success.

Most of that has to do with journalist seeking ratings and ad clicks on their websites... it is about money and revenge because this administration is using records of journalist to ferret out fucking spies, we call them leakers but they are spies attempting to change the political landscape with leaks.

So Like I was saying from the beginning, journalist are pissed and are making this a story. It passes muster in courts, in congress.... in congress who cant even pass a farm bill, yet this gets a nod from both sides of the aisle, and it passes muster in front a President who swore up and down that it was illegal and rights were violated.
 
The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.

From the Memorandum:

Section 3-Acquisition and Processing-General
....
(b) Personnel will exercise reasonable judgment in determining whether information acquired must be minimized and will destroy inadvertently acquired communication ... at the earliest practicable point ... at which such communication can be identified either: ... or, as not containing evidence of a crime ....

Section 5-Domestic Communications
A communication identified as a domestic communication will be promptly destroyed ... unless ...
(2) the communication ... is reasonably believed to contain evidence of a crime that has been, is being, or is about to be committed. Such communication may be disseminated ....[e.s.]

I do not see the constitutional safeguards that would otherwise accompany law enforcement's acquisition of evidence of criminal activity.

Inadvertent invasion of privacy? Or, are communications now included in the "open view" exception?
 
Do you have any evidence to prove that they have? People who work for the government are American citizens and are innocent until proven guilty. So if you have evidence that government employees are interfering with [STRIKE]your[/STRIKE] an American's rights, then please present it so they can be held legally accountable. If not, I'd watch where you throw around snarky allegations.


With all that expensive equipment do you seriously believe that United States citizens are not targeted by NSA surveillance?

Do you seriously believe that United States citizens do not engage in terrorist activities in the United States cue Timothy McVeigh?

Do you seriously believe that the NSA would not conduct surveillance on a United States citizen whom they suspected of planning a terrorist operation in the United States.

Do you seriously believe that the NSA would provide me with proof that they are monitoring the telephone calls and Internet communications of United States citizens and foreigners whom they suspect are planning a terrorist operation?

The fact that for many years the NSA has been collecting details of every telephone call placed in the United States without a warrant, President Obama tells us, is no reason for Americans to be concerned if you have nothing to hide for nobody is listening to your telephone calls. Really?:D
 
The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.

It's called stonewalling. Keep denying the obvious and sufficient people will believe you.

It's standard procedure possibly cultivated by the very organisations under critique on this thread.
 
Britain's GCHQ has its own internet surveillance programs, and in cases has partnered with NSA.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa

Nothing new here. The United Kingdom does not pretend to be whiter than white.

I doubt whether there are any British citizens who do not believe that their security services do not use every tool available to them to monitor the communications of and hunt down suspected terrorists British and foreign.
 
The Fourth Amendment was designed to protect citizens in their day-to-day lives, not to shield them from the government in wrongdoing.

Ah, the mantra of the advocate of the police state!

Do you really fail to see that you're arguing for the government to be as intrusive as it wants?
 
Angela Merkel of Germany is the latest power that be that favors the NSA spying and its related European efforts. I just don't get it. Is defeating those who wish us harm by watering the seeds to a worldwide surveillance state really in the interests of the public? With just about all those in the power elite structure strongly supporting the NSA expansion.. telling us we really have nothing to worry about, that Edward Snowden is an insidious traitor who never deserves to see the light of day after he's "brought to justice". Are we who genuinely have grave concerns about the scope and reach of the surveillance state just silly nervous nellies, or paranoid crazies? Are the NSA supporters just useful idiots or have they some skin in the game, or some of both?
 
Angela Merkel of Germany is the latest power that be that favors the NSA spying and its related European efforts. I just don't get it. Is defeating those who wish us harm by watering the seeds to a worldwide surveillance state really in the interests of the public? With just about all those in the power elite structure strongly supporting the NSA expansion.. telling us we really have nothing to worry about, that Edward Snowden is an insidious traitor who never deserves to see the light of day after he's "brought to justice". Are we who genuinely have grave concerns about the scope and reach of the surveillance state just silly nervous nellies, or paranoid crazies? Are the NSA supporters just useful idiots or have they some skin in the game, or some of both?

The official response of the allies of the United States will more often or not offer support for such surveillance.

In private leaders such as Chancellor Merkel will express some misgivings.

Angela Merkel grew up in a police state - East Germany or the GDR - and is well aware that state snooping can destroy the soul of a nation especially when those who pretend to protect citizens from the enemies of the state become the enemy of the very freedoms they pretend to defend.
 
Angela Merkel of Germany is the latest power that be that favors the NSA spying and its related European efforts. I just don't get it. Is defeating those who wish us harm by watering the seeds to a worldwide surveillance state really in the interests of the public? With just about all those in the power elite structure strongly supporting the NSA expansion.. telling us we really have nothing to worry about, that Edward Snowden is an insidious traitor who never deserves to see the light of day after he's "brought to justice". Are we who genuinely have grave concerns about the scope and reach of the surveillance state just silly nervous nellies, or paranoid crazies? Are the NSA supporters just useful idiots or have they some skin in the game, or some of both?

If ever caught up in the NSA/FBI maw - even if it's for a crime that may be committed and not involving national security - you can complain to the court. Oh, silly me, the proceedings will be secret.
 
The innocence with which this NSA endeavor is presented never ceases to amaze me; my concerns in posts 129 and 180 remain undiminished.

From the Memorandum:

I do not see the constitutional safeguards that would otherwise accompany law enforcement's acquisition of evidence of criminal activity.

Inadvertent invasion of privacy? Or, are communications now included in the "open view" exception?
For the first point outlined, you need to post the ENTIRE portion you are referencing. Also, the first point actually points to the second point you made in terms of the ONLY circumstances under which evidence of a crime may be retained. Additionally, the second point you linked to references sections of the USC that you really need to read to find your Constitutional protections.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1806 and http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1825

Additionally, the disposition of what is described above isn't specified. For instance, if they get evidence of a crime about to be committed, law enforcement is legally allowed to use that information to stop the crime. If evidence of an unrelated crime is discovered during a legal gathering of evidence for a different crime, that evidence is admissible in trial. These issues have been addressed before by the Supreme Court.

With all that expensive equipment do you seriously believe that United States citizens are not targeted by NSA surveillance? What expensive equipment? And yes I do believe that.

Do you seriously believe that United States citizens do not engage in terrorist activities in the United States cue Timothy McVeigh? I have no doubt that some US citizens can be terrorists. I also have no doubt the FBI closely monitors them pursuant to law. It seems to me the ones they've been catching have been convicted instead of their case being thrown out for illegal surveillance. Must be doing something right.

Do you seriously believe that the NSA would not conduct surveillance on a United States citizen whom they suspected of planning a terrorist operation in the United States. I believe that they might but that they would get the warrant needed to do so. NSA has a mission they are required to fulfill. Arguing that the NSA shouldn't be illegally monitoring and that the NSA shouldn't be monitoring at all are two separate arguments. Which one are you making?

Do you seriously believe that the NSA would provide me with proof that they are monitoring the telephone calls and Internet communications of United States citizens and foreigners whom they suspect are planning a terrorist operation? I would believe that someone like Edward Snowden, who goes to great lengths to sneak out lots of classified documents to support his beliefs, would at the very least provide SOME evidence (voice snippet, e-mail copy, Skype conversation, etc.) that backed up his claims of all of this spying on Americans. As it turns out, he didn't and neither did any of these other "former NSA workers" who claim various forms of spying on Americans. If you're going to take the time to meticulously gather and distribute these materials while making plans to run to other countries, surely you could download a file or two showing evidence that this collection is actually happening.

The fact that for many years the NSA has been collecting details of every telephone call placed in the United States without a warrant, President Obama tells us, is no reason for Americans to be concerned if you have nothing to hide for nobody is listening to your telephone calls. Really?:D
Where did you get this information from? Was it from the leaked copy of the warrant to Verizon showing this? I'm not sure where you get the idea that they're collecting the metadata without a warrant, because the evidence presented to support this claim WAS THE WARRANT.

Nothing new here. The United Kingdom does not pretend to be whiter than white.

I doubt whether there are any British citizens who do not believe that their security services do not use every tool available to them to monitor the communications of and hunt down suspected terrorists British and foreign.
So it's ok in your eyes for the UK to do it but not the US? Your personal vendetta is showing.

Ah, the mantra of the advocate of the police state!

Do you really fail to see that you're arguing for the government to be as intrusive as it wants?
No. What I'm seeing in a person like you who will whine and complain all day about how your rights are somehow being violated, without actually being able to prove it, yet will turn around next time some attack happens and wonder why the government wasn't doing enough. Part of understanding the Constitution is understanding what the writers were trying to achieve when writing the text. The Fourth Amendment was designed to allow law-abiding citizens to be safe in their person and property against UNREASONABLE government searches. The point of the amendment was not to allow those who wish to do us harm to be shielded from the government as soon as they step foot in the country. The Constitution also gave the power to the Supreme Court to be the ultimate arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. That power was then propagated down to lower courts via Congress. All 3 branches of government have determined that the activities that go on are Constitutional. No American citizen has shown any loss of rights or harm suffered by the program. The only person here who seems to be running contradictory to the Constitution right now is you claiming all of this is illegal and unconstitutional based on your personal belief.

And no, I am not arguing the government can be intrusive as it wants. For instance, I'm not arguing that the government should be able to kick in anyone's door and randomly search for contraband. I'm not in favor of the government listening in on every domestic phone call (which someone has yet to prove.) However, I am arguing that if the government is monitoring terrorist Abu over in Pakistan and they find in their review of their material that you are calling him 3 times a day, then they should be able to monitor that communication, store it, and use to to prevent crimes.

Angela Merkel of Germany is the latest power that be that favors the NSA spying and its related European efforts. I just don't get it. Is defeating those who wish us harm by watering the seeds to a worldwide surveillance state really in the interests of the public? With just about all those in the power elite structure strongly supporting the NSA expansion.. telling us we really have nothing to worry about, that Edward Snowden is an insidious traitor who never deserves to see the light of day after he's "brought to justice". Are we who genuinely have grave concerns about the scope and reach of the surveillance state just silly nervous nellies, or paranoid crazies? Are the NSA supporters just useful idiots or have they some skin in the game, or some of both?
Or maybe she is informed on how the program works and, like the Legislative, Executive, and Judiciary branches of our government along with the governments of other countries, see that it is actually not illegal and not spying on Americans. Maybe, just maybe, the leaders of these countries see the intelligence value of these programs and the good it does each of their respective countries and have decided that it is more valuable to keep these secret and use these to stop attacks rather than release all of the information to the public so they can feel safe that they're not being targeted and then do nothing else with the information. What have you done to look out for those to wish to do us harm today?
 
For the first point outlined, you need to post the ENTIRE portion you are referencing. Also, the first point actually points to the second point you made in terms of the ONLY circumstances under which evidence of a crime may be retained. Additionally, the second point you linked to references sections of the USC that you really need to read to find your Constitutional protections.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1806 and http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/50/1825

Additionally, the disposition of what is described above isn't specified. For instance, if they get evidence of a crime about to be committed, law enforcement is legally allowed to use that information to stop the crime. If evidence of an unrelated crime is discovered during a legal gathering of evidence for a different crime, that evidence is admissible in trial. These issues have been addressed before by the Supreme Court.




Where did you get this information from? Was it from the leaked copy of the warrant to Verizon showing this? I'm not sure where you get the idea that they're collecting the metadata without a warrant, because the evidence presented to support this claim WAS THE WARRANT.


So it's ok in your eyes for the UK to do it but not the US? Your personal vendetta is showing.


No. What I'm seeing in a person like you who will whine and complain all day about how your rights are somehow being violated, without actually being able to prove it, yet will turn around next time some attack happens and wonder why the government wasn't doing enough. Part of understanding the Constitution is understanding what the writers were trying to achieve when writing the text. The Fourth Amendment was designed to allow law-abiding citizens to be safe in their person and property against UNREASONABLE government searches. The point of the amendment was not to allow those who wish to do us harm to be shielded from the government as soon as they step foot in the country. The Constitution also gave the power to the Supreme Court to be the ultimate arbiter of what is Constitutional and what is not. That power was then propagated down to lower courts via Congress. All 3 branches of government have determined that the activities that go on are Constitutional. No American citizen has shown any loss of rights or harm suffered by the program. The only person here who seems to be running contradictory to the Constitution right now is you claiming all of this is illegal and unconstitutional based on your personal belief.

And no, I am not arguing the government can be intrusive as it wants. For instance, I'm not arguing that the government should be able to kick in anyone's door and randomly search for contraband. I'm not in favor of the government listening in on every domestic phone call (which someone has yet to prove.) However, I am arguing that if the government is monitoring terrorist Abu over in Pakistan and they find in their review of their material that you are calling him 3 times a day, then they should be able to monitor that communication, store it, and use to to prevent crimes.


Or maybe she is informed on how the program works and, like the Legislative, Executive, and Judiciary branches of our government along with the governments of other countries, see that it is actually not illegal and not spying on Americans. Maybe, just maybe, the leaders of these countries see the intelligence value of these programs and the good it does each of their respective countries and have decided that it is more valuable to keep these secret and use these to stop attacks rather than release all of the information to the public so they can feel safe that they're not being targeted and then do nothing else with the information. What have you done to look out for those to wish to do us harm today?

Lots of may bes.
 
Multiply that one misguided effort to promote justice through dubious means by just how immensely wide the scope and reach of our national surveillance state is.... while there are those who genuinely believe they are on the side of the good guys even using such disreputable methods, it destroys the essence of what we claim to be proud of as Americans.
 
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