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PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

I said:

And proves, contrary to those who worship government and holy and pure, that they have been willingly and knowingly lying to us.

And you responded:

So your contention that the NSA explicitly lied, that the Senators accused them of specifically lying, and that the NSA then admitted to lying are just completely false.

The only way your claim here is true is if the Washington Post is lying.

You go to great lengths to claim the government is pure and spotless. Senator Wyden pointed out to the NSA that they had false or misleading information on the fact sheet. They changed it -- which is an admission that the good senator was correct.

Your case now rests on insisting that some, anyone, maybe everyone -- except the NSA! -- is lying.
 
THIS.... we have had hearings galore on the IRS and yet the NSA situation isn't getting the time of day from our government.... gee golly. So are you all from abroad and those of you in the US that give a shit--- are you going to push the [STRIKE]police[/STRIKE] government into the sea as Kulidhar recently applauded the Brazilian people for doing?

I'll wait.

I'm not surprised that you're chiming in with the theme that senators lied, and the NSA never, ever would.
 
I said:



And you responded:



The only way your claim here is true is if the Washington Post is lying.

You go to great lengths to claim the government is pure and spotless. Senator Wyden pointed out to the NSA that they had false or misleading information on the fact sheet. They changed it -- which is an admission that the good senator was correct.

Your case now rests on insisting that some, anyone, maybe everyone -- except the NSA! -- is lying.
I would unequivocally believe the Washington Post is lying. No, I take that back. They are sensationalizing a story as they have been known to do. However, you don't need to take my word or their word for it. You can read the linked supporting material yourself.

And I have never claimed the government is pure and spotless. In fact, I have said many times in multiple posts that they have made mistakes in the past. But I have also said that those mistakes were done by individuals or small groups within the government and that there was no far-reaching, government wide conspiracy, which you have provided no proof to support.

The Senator pointed out that he believed the information would be misleading to the public, and the NSA clarified (not corrected) the information. Again, if you read the attached supporting documents, you will see that General Alexander said exactly that.

And I have not based my case on claiming anyone else is lying. I have based my case on what actual evidence is out there and not some sensationalized news story or blog post. You, on the other hand, have provided almost no evidence or supporting material except your own biases, an occasional (and generally (mis)) quote from another JUB poster, or some link to some libertarian leaning opinion piece that you accept as fact. Your argument is week. Please go get some supporting evidence before you post again and embarrass yourself further.
 
And I have not based my case on claiming anyone else is lying. I have based my case on what actual evidence is out there and not some sensationalized news story or blog post. You, on the other hand, have provided almost no evidence or supporting material except your own biases, an occasional (and generally (mis)) quote from another JUB poster, or some link to some libertarian leaning opinion piece that you accept as fact. Your argument is week. Please go get some supporting evidence before you post again and embarrass yourself further.

I can't figure out what sort of bubble you live in. History shows that government cannot be trusted. The trend of every government throughout history has been toward gathering ever more authority and power, and abusing what it has. Republics have risen, but always fallen, and so it goes. Only throwing out a government and starting anew has ever managed to increase liberty, unless an outside power has leaned on a smaller one to increase liberty for its citizens. After a pair of university world history, plus ancient history and other courses, that's pretty obvious.

Your position rests on assuming that because those outside the circle of power can't find evidence of wrongdoing, there is no wrongdoing. That's naive, the sort of belief someone in an ivory tower with no experience of human nature might hold, but not someone who's dealt with the real world. Case in point: out of five contractors asked to assess my mom's house and provide information and estimates about installing a heat pump, only one was fully honest and didn't lie or distort in order to pump up his price. Of the two who were fully or partly honest, both told me how to deal with the government on the issue, because the government can't be trusted to be honest.

If that last applies to local government, it most assuredly applies to the higher -- and more so. Those who love power and its perks and abuses always gravitate toward where there is more power, where they abuse it the more.

If the NSA is even as pure as the inverse of the ratio tossed out earlier -- if even one in three or four of its employees is really intent on working for the people and obeying the law -- it will be a purity exceeding that of any government I've seen.
 
I can't figure out what sort of bubble you live in. History shows that government cannot be trusted. The trend of every government throughout history has been toward gathering ever more authority and power, and abusing what it has. Republics have risen, but always fallen, and so it goes. Only throwing out a government and starting anew has ever managed to increase liberty, unless an outside power has leaned on a smaller one to increase liberty for its citizens. After a pair of university world history, plus ancient history and other courses, that's pretty obvious.

Your position rests on assuming that because those outside the circle of power can't find evidence of wrongdoing, there is no wrongdoing. That's naive, the sort of belief someone in an ivory tower with no experience of human nature might hold, but not someone who's dealt with the real world. Case in point: out of five contractors asked to assess my mom's house and provide information and estimates about installing a heat pump, only one was fully honest and didn't lie or distort in order to pump up his price. Of the two who were fully or partly honest, both told me how to deal with the government on the issue, because the government can't be trusted to be honest.

If that last applies to local government, it most assuredly applies to the higher -- and more so. Those who love power and its perks and abuses always gravitate toward where there is more power, where they abuse it the more.

If the NSA is even as pure as the inverse of the ratio tossed out earlier -- if even one in three or four of its employees is really intent on working for the people and obeying the law -- it will be a purity exceeding that of any government I've seen.
I know exactly what bubble you live in. A bubble full of obvious hate and loathing for the government. It's clear in every one of your posts. You provide no fact (so the government is totally crooked and dishonest because you tell us some home inspector told you that the government couldn't be trusted?) and merely state what your opinion is and try to pass it off as fact. You've never worked for the government and you have no idea what goes on in it outside of your daily sensationalized news feed.

However, I would challenge that if the government is indeed power hungry and rife with lies and deceit, then it's only because that's what the populace has made it. In a government the is made up of members of the society who were voted in by the society at large, the only ones to blame are those in the society.

But that's assuming that the government is this power-hungry, corrupt, dishonest cesspool you make it out to be, which it is not. You hate the government, we get that. Most Libertarians do except when it comes time to rely on them, then they'll yell and scream that they aren't getting what's owed to them.

Also, I would invite you to read (and maybe get someone to help you comprehend if you're having trouble) my previus posts to see that I acknowledged several times that there are bad apples in government because it is made up of fallible people. But we live in a country where wrongdoing is required to be proven, not that innocence from wrongdoing has to be proven. Your argument is so astoundingly lacking in any rationality that it is humorous. You argue that because some local contractor that you claim told you the local government couldn't be trusted so by virtue of that fact everyone in the federal government above that must be corrupt and untrustworthy as well because it's a higher level of government. That is one of the funniest things I've read in a while. Completely lacking any substantiative premises, but it is funny. Cheers to you!

Point is, until you actually can show proof of wrongdoing, you have no argument. It's what is required by the Constitution that you pull out when you want to argue a supporting position for your points and then quickly put away when the situation doesn't match what you believe.
 
I am neither a pinko nor a Luddite. I tend to not get involved in long screeds. I have been seeking a succinct statement of my concerns, and came across this:

Our government is not totalitarian. Our leaders, even the worst of them, are not totalitarian. But our technology is totalitarian, or rather it is there and can be used and abused by those whose impulses tend, even unconsciously or unthinkingly, in that direction.

So what's needed? We must realize this is a crucial moment: We either go forward with these programs now or we stop, and think. Some call for a conversation, but what we really need is a debate—a real argument. It will require a new candor from the government as to what the National Security Agency does and doesn't do. We need a new rigor in the areas of oversight and accountability—including explicit limits on what can and should be allowed, accompanied by explicit and even harsh penalties for violations. This debate will also require information that is reliable—that is, true—from the government about what past terrorist attempts have been slowed or stopped by the surveillance state.

The quote is from Peggy Noonan, writing in the Wall Street Journal, at:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324188604578543721259199626.html

The Snowden revelations followed quickly upon my expressed concerns about the advances in biometrics.

At this point the only "truth" - pertinent to me - appears to be coming from the Snowden revelations. While the government says that for national security reasons it cannot be more forthcoming, in my mind the government has an obligation to do so.

The debate has yet to be had.
 
I am neither a pinko nor a Luddite. I tend to not get involved in long screeds. I have been seeking a succinct statement of my concerns, and came across this:

The quote is from Peggy Noonan, writing in the Wall Street Journal, at:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324188604578543721259199626.html
I would think Noonan needs to go and read the laws that govern how the NSA and other intelligence agencies conduct their business. There are laws in place that explicitly state what can and cannot be done and under what circumstances. It's in writing for anyone who looks up the FISA and FAAs can read. What the NSA does and does do is explained, on their website and in other sources, to the extent possible. If Noonan is advocating declassifying everything the government does and putting it out for the public to see, that is a task that is not doable and defeats the purpose of the government doing those things anyway. When you are going after an adversary, whether it be terrorists, hostile foreign governments, rogue enemy individuals, etc., you have to do it in a way that allows you to do so without allowing them to stay one step ahead. Would people agree with the idea that the military should broadcast its battle plans to everyone in the US to gain approval and have a spirited debate before carrying them out? I would hope the answer would be no from a logical individual. The same holds even more true for intelligence gathering, where you have to operate out of the public view in order to gather the knowledge needed. You can bet that states like China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, and a whole list of others conduct these operations daily without a peep to the world community, or even their populations, because they understand that the efficacy of such programs depend on doing them in silence. What people don't seem to get is that secrecy doesn't equate to nefarious. Just because people are scared of what they don't know, doesn't mean what they don't know is abridging their rights or making them less of a free people.

The Snowden revelations followed quickly upon my expressed concerns about the advances in biometrics.

At this point the only "truth" - pertinent to me - appears to be coming from the Snowden revelations. While the government says that for national security reasons it cannot be more forthcoming, in my mind the government has an obligation to do so.

The debate has yet to be had.
I would say your concerns about biometrics, while partially legitimate, are not necessarily germane to this argument. If you make advances to prevent identification of a person by biometrics (especially things such as gait identification), then you get into the slippery slope of eliminating things like eye witnesses and put into a domain consider to be protected under privacy a whole host of identification features that have no reasonable expectation of privacy.

However, as far as truth in this case goes, I don't believe Snowden has met the burden of such yet.

1) He released a PowerPoint (which we've only seen 4 of 41 pages of) that indicates there is a program that allows the NSA to obtain a particular set of data from US service providers. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact, and there is partial evidence to back that up. However, what wasn't provided was any evidence that it has been used to target Americans. Snowden claims the NSA stores all of this and he could access it, given his accesses, on anyone in the US, yet he provided no proof of this. The service providers claim they can provide data when NSA comes to them with a valid court order. So in the use of this program, there is no evidence to support either side, so you can't derive any truth from either of those. Both parties, Snowden because he is an admitted Libertarian leaning person who admitted to taking the job with Booz Allen to get information on the programs to use, and the service providers who could stand to lose a lot of trust and business because of this program, have plenty of motivation to direct the conversation and push their version of the story.

2) He released a Verizon warrant showing the delivery of bulk metadata to the NSA. There is no one denying this. However, the data delivered (originating phone number, destination phone number, and length of call) have been ruled in the past as not covered under the Fourth Amendment (Smith vs. Maryland) and was codified into law with the Electronic Communications Privacy Act. Thus, the fact that the government had a warrant granting them this collection (which incidentally, if you look at the warrant is only a Secondary Order) and the fact that they were collecting non-protected data indicates that no wrongdoing at all occurred. The reason the program was kept secret is because announcing to the world you're using metadata, with the appropriate warrants, to find who terrorists called from overseas in the US, compromises your ability to find and track terrorists and their activities in the US.

The burden of proof is still on Snowden to support his claims that the government collects all of this PRISM data and can easily access it whenever. Even he himself has not accused anyone of actually breaking the law and using this technology to spy on Americans. I'm not so sure why everyone else has jumped on the hyped up media spin that somehow existence of these programs automatically means that they are being used against Americans.
 
A group of bipartisan Senators has written the the NSA accusing it of using a "secret body of law" to justify its material accumulation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/senators-james-clapper-nsa-data-collection

Letter at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/28/senators-letter-james-clapper

Today The New York Times editorialized that the known NSA projects were "criminal." To date they have said precious little - and covered less - of this controversy.

And with this I take my leave of this Thread, and, soon of JUB.
 
A group of bipartisan Senators has written the the NSA accusing it of using a "secret body of law" to justify its material accumulation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/28/senators-james-clapper-nsa-data-collection

Letter at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/28/senators-letter-james-clapper

Today The New York Times editorialized that the known NSA projects were "criminal." To date they have said precious little - and covered less - of this controversy.

And with this I take my leave of this Thread, and, soon of JUB.
I will be interested to see the response to the questions in the letter. I'll also be interested to see what actions come from them. I'm betting nothing. From many of them (like Wyden and Udall) it's faux outrage over programs they've known about for a while.

As far as the New York Times article, I don't pay much attention to editorials. I like facts and evidence to be in the articles I read.
 
Another lawsuit has been filed questioning the surveillance by NSA/FBI.

Unitarian Church, Gun Groups Join EFF to Sue NSA Over Illegal Surveillance

San Francisco - Nineteen organizations including Unitarian church groups, gun ownership advocates, and a broad coalition of membership and political advocacy organizations filed suit against the National Security Agency (NSA) today for violating their First Amendment right of association by illegally collecting their call records. The coalition is represented by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), a group with years of experience fighting illegal government surveillance in the courts.

https://www.eff.org/press/releases/...ps-join-eff-sue-nsa-over-illegal-surveillance

For the complaint:

https://www.eff.org/node/75009
 
I'm anxious to see where these go. Here are my bets:

- On the EFF lawsuit

1) Dismissed due to lack of grounds to bring lawsuit (none of the plaintiffs can show they have suffered any harm).
2) Accepted and found to be Constitutional on the grounds of metadata having no reasonable expectation of privacy (Smith vs. Maryland), which is the crux of the plaintiffs' arguments -or-
3) Accepted and found to be Constitutional on the grounds of no particular party has shown any damage to their first, fourth, or fifth amendment rights due to lack of targeting.

- On the Klayman lawsuit

1) Dismissed due to the FISA Amendments Act granting immunity from civil remedies when releasing private information to the government with or without a warrant.
 
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