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PRISM: NSA/FBI Mining Internet Data since 2007

Further to kallipolis' post #114:

The Hill quotes a Representative that what has been disclosed so far is only "the tip of the iceberg."



http://thehill.com/video/house/3050...llance-programs-in-nsa-briefing#ixzz2WEN2OgVW
And many in Congress have defended the program and say it doesn't involve spying on Americans. Besides, being the "tip of the iceberg" and there being "significantly more" means that there is much more to the program than the small snippets of what is being published. I also did not see in there where Rep. Sanchez said that she verified that Americans were being spied on. In fact, she didn't mention that at all.

You're playing language games. "Could", used by such a person in such a context, means "is capable of". The way it's used indicates the belief that that's exactly what is being done.

And since then the capacity has only expanded.

On top of that, we know that under G W Bush the government was spying on Americans. In every other aspect, Obama has doubled down on Bush intrusiveness -- so to believe that in this one area Obama is uniquely clean is irrational.
No, "is capable of" means "is capable of". "Could" means that the possibility exists. It "could" be used to spy on all Americans or it "could" be used to compile the largest database of recipes in the world. If I were to say "all gun owners could go into an elementary school and kill a bunch of children", I mean that the possibility is there that it could happen, not that every gun owner is capable of doing such an act.

And yes, capacity has expanded because the amount of data throughout the world grows daily and at a faster rate. Data centers like this are built to handle future requirements. Sure I can build a data center that will hold the data I have in hand today, but it will be of no use to me tomorrow when I have more data I need to store and process.

I just don't understand where all of the paranoia here comes from. What has the government done to the people on here who for some reason think that they exist solely to target American citizens instead of go after the bad guy?
 
Modified for possible truth.

Or has it?

They're not about to tell.
Well you have yourself a "news" article similar to the ones being quoted in here. Go publish that. You could win a Pulitzer.

But I tell you what. I'll join in your outrage if your conjecture is backed up with proof.
 
where do you get the information that the NSA's new facility will contain the Titan Supercomputer?

I used the word “included,” which is to suggest that it will be part of the NSA network of facilities. I assume Titan will remain housed in Tennessee. With respect to the usage of Titan to process data from the Utah facility, I’m not sure that is something the government has admitted – because the program is classified. Other persons familiar with NSA have made that suggestion, which may include James Bamford who authored the article in Wired to which I linked in a separate thread. Mr. Bamford also wrote the book, The Shadow Factory: The NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America. If he doesn't make that affirmation directly, he does state that the Oak Ridge National Laboratory [ORNL] has been an important part of the NSA’s spy network since 2004.

In October the NSA will begin data-mining at a $2 billion Utah Data centre, with help in Tennessee from the Titan Supercomputer — reportedly the most powerful computer the world has ever known.

Business Insider Australia

ORNL's classified computing program (knoxnews.com)
 
I used the word “included,” which is to suggest that it will be part of the NSA network of facilities. I assume Titan will remain housed in Tennessee. With respect to the usage of Titan to process data from the Utah facility, I’m not sure that is something the government has admitted – because the program is classified. Other persons familiar with NSA have made that suggestion, which may include James Bamford who authored the article in Wired to which I linked in a separate thread. Mr. Bamford also wrote the book, The Shadow Factory: The NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America. If he doesn't make that affirmation directly, he does state that the Oak Ridge National Laboratory [ORNL] has been an important part of the NSA’s spy network since 2004.
James Bamford is not an authority on NSA. While his first book was interesting and contained numerous facts he obtained from FOIA requests, his subsequent books and articles get more and more paranoid and have less and less evidence and fact to back them up. Here's the information I found on Titan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(supercomputer)

Additionally, a lot of the work done by ORNL (and other National Laboratories) does involve classified work dealing with cryptography, nuclear weapons, etc. but it's all in a research setting and not an operational setting due to the amount of work that is being done by each lab and the sharing of the equipment that goes on regularly.

Also, that article you quoted, in the first sentence, tells me it's going to be full of inaccuracies, half truths, and biased information. Whenever an article starts out containing "For years Americans’ right to privacy, as granted by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, has been hijacked by the surveillance state", that tells me it's an opinion piece that they're going to try and find quotes that support their view instead of showing all information.
 
… a lot of the work done by ORNL (and other National Laboratories) does involve classified work dealing with cryptography, nuclear weapons, etc. but it's all in a research setting and not an operational setting due to the amount of work that is being done by each lab and the sharing of the equipment that goes on regularly.

Your impression may be correct. Titan definitely seems intended as a shared processor; however, I don’t think the announced classified purposes, such as code breaking, necessarily limit its actual uses. As Frank Munger’s article relates …

[Thomas Zacharia, ORNL's deputy lab director for science and technology] acknowledged, as he and other lab officials have done before, that ORNL does have a classified computing program and that the lab does work for the so-called three-letter agencies that form the intelligence community. He declined to specifically confirm work for the NSA.
 
Also, that article you quoted, in the first sentence, tells me it's going to be full of inaccuracies, half truths, and biased information. Whenever an article starts out containing "For years Americans’ right to privacy, as granted by the Fourth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, has been hijacked by the surveillance state", that tells me it's an opinion piece that they're going to try and find quotes that support their view instead of showing all information.

That's an interesting conjecture. Given that a lot of people who are serious experts in things will start an argument that way in order to get people's attention, I consider it worth less than the lead in the first .22 round fired today.
 
Well you have yourself a "news" article similar to the ones being quoted in here. Go publish that. You could win a Pulitzer.

But I tell you what. I'll join in your outrage if your conjecture is backed up with proof.

That is the most reasonable thing I have read about concerning this case. IF proof is provided that we are spying on Americans then i will be just as outraged. I have a different perspective on this and feel that their are folks ready and willing to believe anything about the government and foreigners who are always desperate for something to hold up to America and say "SEE!!! SEE!!!"

I have yet to see proof. The ravings of a man who couldn't get his salary correct so how the fuck does he have his facts correct and the rantings of folks normally considered tin foil hatters.
 
Okay, we know we have telephone data mining the Prism, which I will analogize to internet traffic and content mining. Presumably Prism's product is "locked away" until national concerns arise.

In slide made public by the newspapers, NSA analysts were encouraged to use data coming from both Prism and from the fiber-optic cables.

Prism, as its name suggests, helps narrow and focus the stream. If eavesdroppers spot a suspicious email among the torrent of data pouring into the United States, analysts can use information from Internet companies to pinpoint the user.

With Prism, the government gets a user's entire email inbox. Every email, including contacts with American citizens, becomes government property.

Once the NSA has an inbox, it can search its huge archives for information about everyone with whom the target communicated. All those people can be investigated, too.
....
In that way, Prism helps justify specific, potentially personal searches. But it's the broader operation on the Internet fiber optics cables that actually captures the data, experts agree.

CONTINUATION OF POST 129

"I'm much more frightened and concerned about real-time monitoring on the Internet backbone," said Wolf Ruzicka, CEO of EastBanc Technologies, a Washington software company. "I cannot think of anything, outside of a face-to-face conversation, that they could not have access to."

One unanswered question, according to a former technology executive at one of the companies involved, is whether the government can use the data from Prism to work backward. [e.s.]

http://news.yahoo.com/secret-prism-...1lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A3NjcmVlbl9jb250cm9s;_ylv=3

It is the "working backward" part that gives me concern.

We know from Maryland vs. King that a current DNA swab is reasonable upon apprehension and without warrant. We also know that such DNA can be used to charge for a past criminal act.

What happens if a legitimate national security inquiry - lets say with warrant - uncovers evidence of a current or past criminal activity, say, tax evasion, conspiracy to murder, kidnapping, bank robbery, etc.?

What happens if those prior acts are leveraged to secure co-operation on the national security inquiry?

Can charges on the other acts be sustained? Will the evidence not related to national security be considered "fruit of the poisonous tree?"

I think this is an issue that requires serious discussion.

Your thoughts?
 
As someone who aims to be a little more distrustful of government and believes that a healthy distrust should always be maintained, I am more shocked at the actual shock of the program rather than the details of the program itself.

Anyone paying attention to the Bush administration would have realized that numerous legislation and acts (Patriot, FISA, Protect America) had contained provisions that most civil liberties construed as potentially dangerous. And yet it is under Obama that a majority of people are now crying out at his stance on privacy and security.

And as for the technology, the potential for a program like PRISM has always been in place. The innovations that help search queries in Google or advertising organizations that can track your habits online (like googling gay porn and then finding your dash or sidebars loaded with gay dating sites afterwards) allow the NSA to sort through so much pieces of information quickly. (Interesting sidenote: that's how my friends found out I was gay, through the sidebars for advertisements when they glanced over. And again__funny how 'dating' sites showing up after looking for things like 'hard fuck' or 'cum swallow'...don't judge my online habits, the government does that already :))

Which is the main reason for this topic, the supposed legality of the program. As much as our nature says it can be illegal or unconstitutional and against the fourth amendment of unreasonable searches and seizures, it might not be so easy to say that in regards to this notion. This is not to say that a bulwark of intelligence activities are not however. It would be hard to imagine somebody saying that investigations into specific individuals necessitates daily copies of information from a plethora of individuals.

The business powers provisions collects and logs calling information and email records, the metadata of it at least. Officials like Rand Paul classify it as illegal, but the history of the Supreme Court has changed in that regard. Business papers used to be treated the same as private papers, but when the regulatory scheme for business changed to be more all-encompassing, classifying them as the same would negate a lot of legislation regulating business.

US V Miller and Smith V Maryland extended this notion to financial records given to banks and telephone records. This has now developed the notion of the 'third party' doctrine of privacy. If you entrusted information about yourself to somebody else, or if you used technology that left a data trail (for instance in a corporate computer) you ran the risk of the information being made public, and thus you had no 'reasonable expectation' of privacy. Common sense, however, dictates that most people when searching for porn, or talking to a suicide-counselor or an attorney would expect an amount of discretion in that information.

This is where the problem lies, technology murking the waters of what was relatively simple law. In our information age, EVERYTHING practically leaves a data trail. Joining this site or a political organization or a book reading club creates a record of it for a third party. Things don't require physical searches anymore. By living in an era of modern technology, it would presuppose that most have unwittingly given up the right to say fourth amendment protection under current constitutional law. Unless the Fourth Amendment can be changed or reinterpreted for a modern age, programs like PRISM can be hard to critique.
 
But I tell you what. I'll join in your outrage if your conjecture is backed up with proof.

I wonder that you demand proof that information is not being abused, but not that the data mining program has accomplished any useful anti-terror intelligence whatsoever.

It failed to stop the underwear bomber in 2009 (even though even the perpetrator's family tried to flag him for monitoring ahead of time). It failed to stop the Boston Marathon bombers in 2013 (even though they were flagged for monitoring by the FBI prior to the incident). It failed to stop the Little Rock, Arkansas shooting of two American soldiers in 2009, or the killing of seven CIA agents in Iraq in 2009. It failed to catch the Times Square bomber in 2010 (a street vendor accomplished what the NSA, CIA, and FBI could not). It failed to stop the Ft. Hood shooting in 2009, or the Newtown mass shooting in 2012.

So far as we are aware, this massive surveillance program by the NSA has accomplished nothing useful whatsoever, throughout its entire history. And don't tell me that we cannot know all the wonderful good it has done because "it's classified." Prosecuting people who have attempted crimes and failed cannot be done in some sort of secret court. If failed terrorist attempts were being foiled and people prosecuted for participation in such activity, we would KNOW about it. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that this massive spying on US citizens HAS ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING USEFUL WHATSOEVER throughout its entire history.

There is, in fact, some evidence (albeit speculative) that the PRISM program may have compromised US secrets to the Chinese. Some people in the IT community believe that the recent hacking of Google by the Chinese was actually accomplished through the NSA's back door to Google. In other words, it may have been PRISM that was hacked, not Google. We have no evidence whatsoever that PRISM has done anything to advance American security. But we have some speculative evidence that PRISM has harmed American security.

As Ben Franklin warned, trying to trade security for liberty results in the loss of both.


http://www.zdnet.com/how-secure-is-the-national-security-agency-7000016752/
 
CONTINUATION OF POST 129



http://news.yahoo.com/secret-prism-...1lBHB0A3BtaAR0ZXN0A3NjcmVlbl9jb250cm9s;_ylv=3

It is the "working backward" part that gives me concern.

We know from Maryland vs. King that a current DNA swab is reasonable upon apprehension and without warrant. We also know that such DNA can be used to charge for a past criminal act.

What happens if a legitimate national security inquiry - lets say with warrant - uncovers evidence of a current or past criminal activity, say, tax evasion, conspiracy to murder, kidnapping, bank robbery, etc.?

What happens if those prior acts are leveraged to secure co-operation on the national security inquiry?

Can charges on the other acts be sustained? Will the evidence not related to national security be considered "fruit of the poisonous tree?"

I think this is an issue that requires serious discussion.

Your thoughts?
It's the same as any criminal investigation. If you are legally being investigated for terrorism related charges and they turn up evidence that you've previously robbed a bank, they can use that evidence, in most cases, to also charge you with bank robbery. I don't see why it would be any different just because of the source of the evidence. If they use that evidence to extort some other type of cooperation with you, assuming it's not part of a legal plea bargain, then that is not legal and you are no longer conducting a legal investigation.

However, in most warrants for access to databases, they usually limit the scope of what data can be looked for and what data can be legally obtained from that. Warrants are generally specific on what can and cannot be obtained. Even the leaked Verizon warrant spelled out what data could be obtained and what data could not be obtained. If you obtain data the warrant doesn't allow, then that data cannot be legally used against a person.

I wonder that you demand proof that information is not being abused, but not that the data mining program has accomplished any useful anti-terror intelligence whatsoever.

It failed to stop the underwear bomber in 2009 (even though even the perpetrator's family tried to flag him for monitoring ahead of time). It failed to stop the Boston Marathon bombers in 2013 (even though they were flagged for monitoring by the FBI prior to the incident). It failed to stop the Little Rock, Arkansas shooting of two American soldiers in 2009, or the killing of seven CIA agents in Iraq in 2009. It failed to catch the Times Square bomber in 2010 (a street vendor accomplished what the NSA, CIA, and FBI could not). It failed to stop the Ft. Hood shooting in 2009, or the Newtown mass shooting in 2012.

So far as we are aware, this massive surveillance program by the NSA has accomplished nothing useful whatsoever, throughout its entire history. And don't tell me that we cannot know all the wonderful good it has done because "it's classified." Prosecuting people who have attempted crimes and failed cannot be done in some sort of secret court. If failed terrorist attempts were being foiled and people prosecuted for participation in such activity, we would KNOW about it. Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that this massive spying on US citizens HAS ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING USEFUL WHATSOEVER throughout its entire history.

There is, in fact, some evidence (albeit speculative) that the PRISM program may have compromised US secrets to the Chinese. Some people in the IT community believe that the recent hacking of Google by the Chinese was actually accomplished through the NSA's back door to Google. In other words, it may have been PRISM that was hacked, not Google. We have no evidence whatsoever that PRISM has done anything to advance American security. But we have some speculative evidence that PRISM has harmed American security.

As Ben Franklin warned, trying to trade security for liberty results in the loss of both.


http://www.zdnet.com/how-secure-is-the-national-security-agency-7000016752/
I know for a fact that information obtained from various intelligence agencies have protected Americans around the world. Saying that because methods are not 100% effective makes them not worth pursuing is absurd. But that's not what I'm demanding proof of. I want to see proof that the programs involve spying on Americans like people are claiming. I've seen claims ranging from they're listening in to my phone calls to they're reading all of my e-mails to they're downloading and storing everything I do. There is no evidence at all that any of this is being performed against Americans. None at all.

Everything I have seen has been, at best, half truths about the limited information. Yet, if you compare what people say to what the limited number of slides that have been published say, you'll see there is a huge amount of personal opinion that is added into these "articles". The Post and Guardian reported that the PowerPoint for Prism was like 40 slides long, yet there only seem to have been 3 or 4 slides published. What's in the rest of them? For all we know, the other slides contain information saying who it can and cannot be used against or what legal procedures must be followed to protect people's rights. It seems that they took what is most sensational from the slides and put that in their article without giving the full picture. Why is that?

And as far as the Benjamin Franklin quote (which you seem to have truncated slightly), take a look at this:

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/meyer/060911

So as not to be like some alarmists out there, this is of course an opinion article since Ben isn't alive to talk to us. However, it does provide an alternate perspective on what he could have meant by that quote other than no amount of liberty can ever be sacrificed for any amount of security.
 
As someone who aims to be a little more distrustful of government and believes that a healthy distrust should always be maintained, I am more shocked at the actual shock of the program rather than the details of the program itself.

Anyone paying attention to the Bush administration would have realized that numerous legislation and acts (Patriot, FISA, Protect America) had contained provisions that most civil liberties construed as potentially dangerous. And yet it is under Obama that a majority of people are now crying out at his stance on privacy and security.

And as for the technology, the potential for a program like PRISM has always been in place. The innovations that help search queries in Google or advertising organizations that can track your habits online (like googling gay porn and then finding your dash or sidebars loaded with gay dating sites afterwards) allow the NSA to sort through so much pieces of information quickly. (Interesting sidenote: that's how my friends found out I was gay, through the sidebars for advertisements when they glanced over. And again__funny how 'dating' sites showing up after looking for things like 'hard fuck' or 'cum swallow'...don't judge my online habits, the government does that already :))

Which is the main reason for this topic, the supposed legality of the program. As much as our nature says it can be illegal or unconstitutional and against the fourth amendment of unreasonable searches and seizures, it might not be so easy to say that in regards to this notion. This is not to say that a bulwark of intelligence activities are not however. It would be hard to imagine somebody saying that investigations into specific individuals necessitates daily copies of information from a plethora of individuals.

The business powers provisions collects and logs calling information and email records, the metadata of it at least. Officials like Rand Paul classify it as illegal, but the history of the Supreme Court has changed in that regard. Business papers used to be treated the same as private papers, but when the regulatory scheme for business changed to be more all-encompassing, classifying them as the same would negate a lot of legislation regulating business.

US V Miller and Smith V Maryland extended this notion to financial records given to banks and telephone records. This has now developed the notion of the 'third party' doctrine of privacy. If you entrusted information about yourself to somebody else, or if you used technology that left a data trail (for instance in a corporate computer) you ran the risk of the information being made public, and thus you had no 'reasonable expectation' of privacy. Common sense, however, dictates that most people when searching for porn, or talking to a suicide-counselor or an attorney would expect an amount of discretion in that information.

This is where the problem lies, technology murking the waters of what was relatively simple law. In our information age, EVERYTHING practically leaves a data trail. Joining this site or a political organization or a book reading club creates a record of it for a third party. Things don't require physical searches anymore. By living in an era of modern technology, it would presuppose that most have unwittingly given up the right to say fourth amendment protection under current constitutional law. Unless the Fourth Amendment can be changed or reinterpreted for a modern age, programs like PRISM can be hard to critique.

In terms of metadata on electronic communications, here is how I see it:

If I mail a letter to someone, I expect anyone in the world to be able to see the addressee and my return address as well as what date I mailed it. I don't expect anyone but the recipient to read the contents (unless a legally obtained warrant grants another party access to those contents.)

That's exactly how phone calls and e-mails work. An originating identifier, a destination identifier, and a time/date stamp or open information. The contents of that e-mail (ignoring the technological realities, encryption or lack thereof, etc.) are not open information (i.e. possess a reasonable expectation of privacy.)
 
I know for a fact that information obtained from various intelligence agencies have protected Americans around the world.

That is not the question.

The question is whether or not spying on Americans indiscriminately has done anything other than hurt America.


(And, BTW, your link regarding the Franklin quote is amusing. The authors try to turn Franklin's quote that trading liberty for security is bad into a claim by Franklin that giving up liberty for security is actually kinda good. Franklin wasn't referring to ALL liberties, just some. And he wasn't referring to ALL kinds of security, just some. It's amazing to me what people will say. It's Orwellian "Newspeak." Good means bad and bad means good. :lol: )
 
That is not the question.

The question is whether or not spying on Americans indiscriminately has done anything other than hurt America.


(And, BTW, your link regarding the Franklin quote is amusing. The authors try to turn Franklin's quote that trading liberty for security is bad into a claim by Franklin that giving up liberty for security is actually kinda good. Franklin wasn't referring to ALL liberties, just some. And he wasn't referring to ALL kinds of security, just some. It's amazing to me what people will say. It's Orwellian "Newspeak." Good means bad and bad means good. :lol: )
The question is not what you pose it to be. The question is is the government indiscriminately spying on American? That question has not been answered at all and nothing provided up to this point indicates that it is.

And did you read the piece I linked at all? If so, I don't know how in the world you read that from the words used in it. And you still misinterpreted his quote. I don't see at all the "Orwellian Newspeak" you claim in that piece. I'm starting to see how you are interpreting what has been presented in the news as proof that the government is spying on all Americans. What the piece is actually trying to say is that those that use a (mis)quote from Franklin to justify their rationale that the government shouldn't be involved in any intelligence gathering because it may possibly infringe upon any possible liberty out there are misguided and interpreting in absolutes rather than the premise that essential liberties being traded for temporary security is what is actually the bad thing.

What I see his quote meaning is that it's not okay for the government to take away the fourth amendment and go around kicking in everyone's door and searching their house because some lady just got her purse snatched down the road and it may happen again, not that it's not okay to collect metadata and build call chains to attempt to identify potential terrorists in the country in order to prevent terrorist attacks from this point forward.
 
The question is not what you pose it to be. The question is is the government indiscriminately spying on American? That question has not been answered at all and nothing provided up to this point indicates that it is.

That is the claim of Edward Snowden. He revealed the presence of a program known as PRISM, which enables the government to collect information including search histories, the content of emails, file transfers, live chats, and a lot of other information on a massive scale. Moreover, Mr. Snowden presented documents to The Guardian and The South China Morning Post to corroborate his claims. Both papers believe the documents to be authentic.

Interestingly, no one in the US government has denied these claims. In fact, they have admitted the existence of PRISM.

I presume your point is that Snowden only presented evidence that PRISM has the capability of spying on everyone, but he did not actually present evidence that it is. That's not a very credible argument. Why would the NSA set up this (massive and phenomenally expensive) infrastructure and then not use it?

No, we don't know exactly how it's being used. But, one has to presume that PRISM is being used in the way it was designed to be used. And that's problematic in a society where people have rights.


And did you read the piece I linked at all?

How could I have commented on the manner in which Robert Meyer twisted around the meaning of the words Ben Franklin wrote, if I had not read the article?


If so, I don't know how in the world you read that from the words used in it. And you still misinterpreted his quote. I don't see at all the "Orwellian Newspeak" you claim in that piece.

Ben Franklin said:

"Those who can give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Mr. Meyer says that what Franklin meant was that it is actually okay to give up some liberties (those, apparently, which are not essential) to obtain some safety (that, apparently, which is not small or temporary).

Franklin warned against the danger of surrendering liberty for safety, and Mr. Meyer somehow turned that into Franklin saying that it's okay to give up liberty for safety in our current circumstance, because the liberties being surrendered are not essential, and the safety being obtained is not small or temporary. That's Orwellian Newspeak. He just claimed that Franklin meant the opposite of what his words say. ["War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."]

I wonder what liberties we possess which are not essential, and what safety exists in life which is permanent?
 
I presume your point is that Snowden only presented evidence that PRISM has the capability of spying on everyone, but he did not actually present evidence that it is. That's not a very credible argument. Why would the NSA set up this (massive and phenomenally expensive) infrastructure and then not use it?

This.................
 
That is the claim of Edward Snowden. He revealed the presence of a program known as PRISM, which enables the government to collect information including search histories, the content of emails, file transfers, live chats, and a lot of other information on a massive scale. Moreover, Mr. Snowden presented documents to The Guardian and The South China Morning Post to corroborate his claims. Both papers believe the documents to be authentic.

Interestingly, no one in the US government has denied these claims. In fact, they have admitted the existence of PRISM.

I presume your point is that Snowden only presented evidence that PRISM has the capability of spying on everyone, but he did not actually present evidence that it is. That's not a very credible argument. Why would the NSA set up this (massive and phenomenally expensive) infrastructure and then not use it?

No, we don't know exactly how it's being used. But, one has to presume that PRISM is being used in the way it was designed to be used. And that's problematic in a society where people have rights.

They have not denied the existence of the system, but they have repeatedly denied that it is not used to target Americans. You, and everyone else, seem to forget that the US isn't the only country in the world. The United States makes up about 6% of the world's population. The NSA is responsible for making sure the other 94% aren't out to harm America, whether it be terrorists, state actors, foreign businesses, etc. Presumably, all of the capabilities that PRISM has would be of use against the targets NSA can go after everyday without needing a warrant at all (i.e. non-Americans not in America.)

Again, you are cramming the limited facts available (that a system exists that has x, y, and z capability) into your narrative that you want people to believe (the government hates Americans) in order to make a half-truth (the government must be using this system to spy on Americans because why else would the system exist?) That's the argument that's not very credible. If this system is capable of spying on all Americans and Snowden had the ability, as he claimed, to be able to tap into anyone's information at the push of a button, why didn't he provide an example? Why not get a phone call the President had made and release it showing that this capability was being used to target Americans? Why not show some e-mails that Pelosi or Boehner sent on their Gmail? Why not show Rand Paul Skyping with Ron Paul? It's because this information doesn't exist and he didn't have the capability to access any of it. All he has done is show that the NSA has a program in place where it can access information it needs to execute its mission. He didn't provide any evidence that it was being used against Americans at all.

So yes, the NSA could be using this infrastructure everyday and still not be targeting Americans because there are 6 billion other people out there who aren't Americans and who don't get Fourth Amendment protections.

And, by the way, $20 million a year is not "phenomenally expensive" when you're talking about a government who spends trillions a year.

How could I have commented on the manner in which Robert Meyer twisted around the meaning of the words Ben Franklin wrote, if I had not read the article?

Ben Franklin said:

"Those who can give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Mr. Meyer says that what Franklin meant was that it is actually okay to give up some liberties (those, apparently, which are not essential) to obtain some safety (that, apparently, which is not small or temporary).

Franklin warned against the danger of surrendering liberty for safety, and Mr. Meyer somehow turned that into Franklin saying that it's okay to give up liberty for safety in our current circumstance, because the liberties being surrendered are not essential, and the safety being obtained is not small or temporary. That's Orwellian Newspeak. He just claimed that Franklin meant the opposite of what his words say. ["War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength."]

I wonder what liberties we possess which are not essential, and what safety exists in life which is permanent?
You could have read the first paragraph and then commented on it, which is what I am thinking, because nowhere in that article did he claim Franklin meant the opposite of what he said. The entire article is written about and targeted to those who interpret Franklin's quote as being absolute. But if you provide a quote from the article showing where he made the point Franklin actually meant the opposite of what he said, we'll talk further. Reading more into something than what is there seems to be a strong point of your's.
 
They have not denied the existence of the system, but they have repeatedly denied that it is not used to target Americans.

The NSA and the FBI have acknowledged that PRISM is a working reality.

Then we should assume - according to your bizarre reasoning - that there are no terrorist suspects living in the United States, and that all terrorist suspects live outside the United States...and of course, according to your further bizarre reasoning United States citizens and others (foreigners) resident in the United States cannot possibly be terrorist suspects?
 
The NSA and the FBI have acknowledged that PRISM is a working reality.

Then we should assume - according to your bizarre reasoning - that there are no terrorist suspects living in the United States, and that all terrorist suspects live outside the United States...and of course, according to your further bizarre reasoning United States citizens and others (foreigners) resident in the United States cannot possibly be terrorist suspects?

You guys have a hard time with reasoned responses, which is why I stopped a long time ago.

He said a massive system was set up because America is 6% of the world and the rest of you #@$% @#%^%^@ can be spied upon. (I added #@$% @#%^%^@ in referring to non-americans just because it sounds shitty)

When warrants are presented as in the cases with Facebook and Microsoft then they can use the system to look at that persons history IF the warrant specifies and IF the search requires it. Incidently Microsoft and Facebook released the "targets" they were required to release to the government and it amounts to a tenth of a percent of their customer base.... lol. So obviously we are spying on ALL Americans.
 
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