Progressives push for a $2K/month check for duration of the pandemic

[ClubLevelVegan]

I still work seasonally for myself. So I am not out of touch with the reality of today's workforce. In my younger days a low pay job took little effort or skill and that is still true today. For the government to set an arbitrary wage (based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system) will do no good, why $15.00, why bot $30.00... heck $50. is a nice number, lets go with $50.

What is a low effort job to you? As if "low effort/skill" is any means to where people shouldn't be making livable wages, so yes you are out of touch if you don't think people that are trying to support themselves or their families have these jobs. Because either these jobs that you can apparently work yourself up in either don't exist because they have been shipped over seas or these kinds of jobs aren't available to every average American Worker.

If a burger flipper (I was one at one time) makes the same as a cop or a fireman, plumber, teacher or carpenter where is the incentive to learn? $15 per hour is $600. per week. The price of burgers will go up and people won't buy them... suddenly we have unemployed burger flippers and closed hamburger joint.

Maybe the problem isn't the fact that (if this metric is true) the burger flipper is making $15 dollars and that all these other occupations aren't being paid enough either? You realize education gets cut to ribbons in a lot of areas on the regular? Which is in part why specifically Teachers aren't paid enough. You realize all these people with these "low effort/skill" jobs are considered essential workers? They had to work and continue to work to make some sort a living through a global pandemic but you think they shouldn't be paid more. These jobs are apparently very important in keeping the economy going, where they are literally risking their health and peoples lives but they don't deserve to be paid more because it is "low effort/skill." That's bullshit.

As for your assumption about people not buying burgers because of higher prices. I worked in retail when the prices for cigarettes went up by dollars, it did not stop people from buying cigarettes. People complained but still bought them. Your point here is based on pure speculation.

When an economy parts company with the law of supply and demand there are repercussions. In a perfect world all would have a fun job and go home to a wonderful home, however the world is not and never will be perfect. The government should at times intervene on the behalf of employees, if wages are stagnant fluffing the pillow won't help. We need to ask why wages aren't going up.

Our economy is garbage. It hangs on the whims of profit and when that profit is threatened it has trouble sustaining itself. If prices for things keep needing to go up in order to compensate for people making better wages, then you're ending up where you began. It is a failure of a system if it has to work this way, it isn't sustainable. An economic system based on profit is weak and the sooner we move on from it the better.

 

[Dominus]

Our economy is garbage.

You keep attacking the profit-motive aspects of our economic system. I have asked you many many many times to give us an alternative that doesn't end up starving millions of people. Here is your chance. Stop attacking and tell us what an alternative could be.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

You keep attacking the profit-motive aspects of our economic system. I have asked you many many many times to give us an alternative that doesn't end up starving millions of people. Here is your chance. Stop attacking and tell us what an alternative could be.

Who am I attacking?

I have asked you many many many times to give us an alternative that doesn't end up starving millions of people.

Our current economic system is doing that very thing right now. Look at the state of homelessness and poverty stricken people in America. I didn't say I had all the answers, I am saying that the current system isn't working for a significant portion of Americans.

 

[Dominus]

Who am I attacking?



Our current economic system is doing that very thing right now. Look at the state of homelessness and poverty stricken people in America. I didn't say I had all the answers, I am saying that the current system isn't working for a significant portion of Americans.

I don't dispute that there are plenty of homelessness and poverty in America. But compare it to what the peasants in the Soviet Union and Communist China faced...

No one is saying capitalism is perfect. Everybody recognizes it is far from it. But in the history of economic systems that have been experimented, this one so far wins by a long shot. My family escaped extreme poverty through capitalism. What do I mean by extreme? Ever had to eat sewer rats to survive? Or on days when even there's no rats to eat, it's sleep-all-day day because hunger isn't as bad when you're just sleeping (as a kid).

Alternative to capitalism like socialism and communism may sound good on paper. But try living through it for yourself and see what happens.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

Soviet Union and China aren’t true Communism. There is a difference between calling yourself a Communist state and actually being one. By definition neither of those places were or are.

It’s kind of like America calling itself Democracy when it’s an Oligarchy.

 

[Dominus]

Soviet Union and China aren’t true Communism. There is a difference between calling yourself a Communist state and actually being one. By definition neither of those places were or are.

It’s kind of like America calling itself Democracy when it’s an Oligarchy.

Ok, I will accept your premise that those states were never true communist.

Before we go on, don't you dare accuse me of preaching again. I just accepted an argument from you.

Regardless of what you want to call them, they were real attempts at an alternative to capitalism.

I agree that the system we have now isn't perfect. But there are ways to navigate it and prosper. [Text: Removed] It's not like I shared any secret. All this info are out there. It's the same info that got my family from eating rats (literally) to being in the upper middle class.

I'll give you an example. One of my employees I pay $18/hour to do manual labor. Full time. However, he is always broke. Always asking me to get paid early. I finally worked out some math with him. He spends about $900/month on cigarettes. That's about 4-5 packs a day. His wife smokes less so she spends about $500/month on cigs. There are many other habits about them that I find questionable. Like for example they ordered a turkey and other things for thanksgiving. After they ate, they threw all the left overs away. I asked why? They told me they don't believe in eating left-overs. Then I remembered oh yeah of all the times I treated them to lunch and dinner I never saw them pack things up to bring home.

Let me tell you something. With habits like that, doesn't matter how much I pay him. They will always be poor. Always.

Does the system need change? Yes, of course. Everything always needs improvements. But can you at least be honest enough to admit that people also need to change to better their own lives? Because so far I've only seen you blame the system.

If my family could go from being dirt poor barely surviving to being upper middle class in less than a generation, surely this system isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

 

[TX-Beau]

Ok, I will accept your premise that those states were never true communist.

Before we go on, don't you dare accuse me of preaching again. I just accepted an argument from you.

Regardless of what you want to call them, they were real attempts at an alternative to capitalism.

I agree that the system we have now isn't perfect. But there are ways to navigate it and prosper. [Text: Removed] It's not like I shared any secret. All this info are out there. It's the same info that got my family from eating rats (literally) to being in the upper middle class.

I'll give you an example. One of my employees I pay $18/hour to do manual labor. Full time. However, he is always broke. Always asking me to get paid early. I finally worked out some math with him. He spends about $900/month on cigarettes. That's about 4-5 packs a day. His wife smokes less so she spends about $500/month on cigs. There are many other habits about them that I find questionable. Like for example they ordered a turkey and other things for thanksgiving. After they ate, they threw all the left overs away. I asked why? They told me they don't believe in eating left-overs. Then I remembered oh yeah of all the times I treated them to lunch and dinner I never saw them pack things up to bring home.

Let me tell you something. With habits like that, doesn't matter how much I pay him. They will always be poor. Always.

Does the system need change? Yes, of course. Everything always needs improvements. But can you at least be honest enough to admit that people also need to change to better their own lives? Because so far I've only seen you blame the system.

If my family could go from being dirt poor barely surviving to being upper middle class in less than a generation, surely this system isn't as bad as you make it out to be.

You know what, there are places in this country where people scrounge for food in the trash, and places where people for generations have survived eating squirrels.

What you are doing is inventing reasons to look away - tossing in a disclaimer here and there as if that isn't the same old tired justification for apathy that gets trotted out ad naseum, and it comes across - if indeed you are "upper middle class" like a big fuck you to people who can't earn enough in the richest courtly in the world, to eat.

We aren't capitalism we are indeed oligarchy, because the rich bought the politicians who changed the rules to funnel profit only up to them, and if it continues a whole bunch of people inventing reasons to look away won't be middle class any longer.

 

[Dominus]

You know what, there are places in this country where people scrounge for food in the trash, and places where people for generations have survived eating squirrels.

What you are doing is inventing reasons to look away - tossing in a disclaimer here and there as if that isn't the same old tired justification for apathy that gets trotted out ad naseum, and it comes across - if indeed you are "upper middle class" like a big fuck you to people who can't earn enough in the richest courtly in the world, to eat.

We aren't capitalism we are indeed oligarchy, because the rich bought the politicians who changed the rules to funnel profit only up to them, and if it continues a whole bunch of people inventing reasons to look away won't be middle class any longer.

Are you really saying asian immigrants like my family bought politicians to make the system work in our favor?

Edit.

Also, are you implying that spending $1000+/month on cigarettes has nothing to do with one's poverty? Like, nothing?

 

[Alistair]

You know what, there are places in this country where people scrounge for food in the trash, and places where people for generations have survived eating squirrels.

What you are doing is inventing reasons to look away - tossing in a disclaimer here and there as if that isn't the same old tired justification for apathy that gets trotted out ad naseum, and it comes across - if indeed you are "upper middle class" like a big fuck you to people who can't earn enough in the richest courtly in the world, to eat.

We aren't capitalism we are indeed oligarchy, because the rich bought the politicians who changed the rules to funnel profit only up to them, and if it continues a whole bunch of people inventing reasons to look away won't be middle class any longer.

[Text: Removed] If you haven’t depended on food stamps and food pantries in your life you’re not going to understand it or care.

 

[TX-Beau]

Are you really saying asian immigrants like my family bought politicians to make the system work in our favor?

Dodging the point just makes you look silly.

 

[TX-Beau]

[Text: Removed] If you haven’t depended on food stamps and food pantries in your life you’re not going to understand it or care.

These days i find I have zero patience for people who won't help, won't be safe, won't stop justifying - you get the picture.

 

[Dominus]

Dodging the point just makes you look silly.

Which point am I dodging? May be I misunderstood your point.

Let me repeat. My point is even though I agree the system needs improvements, people's habits also need to change. You can pay someone $50/hr and he will still blow it all if he doesn't have proper spending habits.

Here is a universal concept. You can't out-earn stupid spending habits. Do you or do you not agree with this concept?

Also, another point I'm trying to make is the asian community as a whole has done quite well in this system. And everybody knows we are the lease represented group out there. Even less so than the black community. So, if your premise is politicians are bought to benefit such and such group and that's the only explanation to how they prosper, are you saying asian immigrants bought out the politicians?

 

[Dominus]

These days i find I have zero patience for people who won't help, won't be safe, won't stop justifying - you get the picture.

Since I have Alistair on my ignore list, thanks for showing me what he said.

When my family first came to the US, all 7 of us lived in a broken down trailer in the worst part of town. We survived on food stamps and food pantries. My parents got us off them ASAP. It's a pride thing. On the other hand, I've known people who only knows food stamps and food pantries. That's all they know. That's all they aim for.

 

[ClubLevelVegan]

[Text: Removed] If you haven’t depended on food stamps and food pantries in your life you’re not going to understand it or care.

I hate how true this is.

 

[TX-Beau]

Since I have Alistair on my ignore list, thanks for showing me what he said.

When my family first came to the US, all 7 of us lived in a broken down trailer in the worst part of town. We survived on food stamps and food pantries. My parents got us off them ASAP. It's a pride thing. On the other hand, I've known people who only knows food stamps and food pantries. That's all they know. That's all they aim for.

I find it damning how easily you buy the far right bullshit. You have to want to believe that crap to spew it back out.

And why are you responding to him by proxy if you're ignoring him?

 

[TX-Beau]

Which point am I dodging? May be I misunderstood your point.

Let me repeat. My point is even though I agree the system needs improvements, people's habits also need to change. You can pay someone $50/hr and he will still blow it all if he doesn't have proper spending habits.

Here is a universal concept. You can't out-earn stupid spending habits. Do you or do you not agree with this concept?

Also, another point I'm trying to make is the asian community as a whole has done quite well in this system. And everybody knows we are the lease represented group out there. Even less so than the black community. So, if your premise is politicians are bought to benefit such and such group and that's the only explanation to how they prosper, are you saying asian immigrants bought out the politicians?

Yeah, maybe you're dodging the point/

 

[Dominus]

I find it damning how easily you buy the far right bullshit. You have to want to believe that crap to spew it back out.

*Sigh*

Did you know that the nazis were health freaks? Since we know the nazis were evil, does this mean we should do the opposite of what they believed in and let's all strive to become 600 pounds?

Just because I don't agree with 90% of what right wingers say, doesn't mean I'm going to illogically dismiss everything they say off hand.

Anyway, I sincerely hope you don't just dismiss everything I say off hand and really try to understand what I'm trying to say. By no means I am not advocating survival of the fittest like the typical right-winger. But surely, spending $1K+/month on cigarettes is not financially responsible by any stretch of the imagination. We can at least agree on this, yes?

The fact of the matter is this. My family came to the US in the early 90s. My parents worked minimum wage jobs at $5.xx/hr and somehow they managed to raise us 5 kids, put us all through college, and even bought a newly built $200K house in the suburbs. They still live in that same house these days in their retirement. Are you guys implying my family has NOTHING to offer advice wise? Nothing?

Here's the thing. We are not even a unique case when it comes to asian immigrants. We are a very typical asian immigrant family. So, I'm not even bragging. I can personally name 100 other asian immigrant families exactly like us. Came here with nothing. Learned the rules of this system. Worked toward prospering. Etc.

 

[Dominus]

Yeah, maybe you're dodging the point/

Ok, I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to dodge the point. I just re-read the post and still don't understand what I'm dodging. Can you please tell me clearly what the point is I have missed?

 

[Dominus]

And why are you responding to him by proxy if you're ignoring him?

Because when you quote him, I can see him. And it's human nature, once I see it I feel the urge to respond. Which is why I have him on my ignore list to begin with. I can confidently say he hates me and will 100% of the time intentionally misinterpret everything I say to rile me up. Hence why I put him on my ignore list to begin with. So, all you have to do is not quote him and i won't see what he says.

 

[TX-Beau]

Ok, I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to dodge the point. I just re-read the post and still don't understand what I'm dodging. Can you please tell me clearly what the point is I have missed?

The point is you are selling Reagan's tired old welfare queen lies, with just as callous a dismissal of suffering, the right has always used that fantasy to justify cruelty.