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Prop 8 – Why our Reaction to Defeat may signal a Longer War

How would you know your side has the advantage prior to the close of election day? And why do you think the vast majority of non-voters even care about Prop 8? You have a false dichotomy at work.

I don't get the church-going part either. I know that one isn't your doings, so I don't expect you to follow-up on it. I went to the link and I don't see any proof that religion is on the rise for 18-29 year olds.


Obviously, I can't pretend to know what 3.1 million non-voting under-30 Californians were thinking. I prefaced my statement with "perhaps" - it was a passing observation, meant to highlight that we can surmise all we like about why any age-demographic votes the way it does. Perhaps a wink emoticon was called for on my part.
 
No, you didn't make "observations". You made judgment calls based on incomplete data.

I made observations -- no judgment calls involved.
See, I told what I've observed, and observing results in observations.

Then I said where I stand, based on those observations.


Now, you can claim that what I observed doesn't mesh with the way you see reality, or with what you've observed, or with some larger trend(s), but you don't mention any such thing -- you just call "fallacy" on my observations -- yet there isn't any fallacy concerning observations.
 
Um.. what riots? What invasions of property? What assaults? The demonstrations that I went to were VERY peaceful, positive and non-violent.

Churches trashed and other stuff -- seems to me that sort of thing was mentioned in the article.

What we did was very peacefully walk through the streets and show our numbers, we gave positive messages, we also used the system to show who had hurt us.

Then I guess you weren't part of the people the article talked about.

Yes... some people have lost their jobs, some have lost their businesses, some have lost friends. Shit happens.

Such compassion...
according to the article, those things happened because of gay reaction to the vote. That makes us all look really good, huh?

I mean.. I'm confused.. you advocate gay people storming through the streets with guns so straight people are afraid of us but you think a peaceful march is a "riot?"

Oh, what a way to lie about my position!

Maybe you should read my siggie.
 
Yes the article in Christianity today is just another airing of "Christian Scaremongery" and blatant lies.

Christianity Today is a fairly serious magazine, and doesn't go in for "scaremongery". It isn't quite up to the standards of the Christian Science Monitor, but it's a solid publication with serious editing. Compared to many Christian publications, it's very careful, even stodgy, about what it prints.
 
We all know which group we can blame for Prop 8. … It's the same group that hosed blacks down and placed Japanese Americans in internment camps.

You might want to update your files. President Roosevelt signed Executive Order 9066 on February 19, 1942. Whatever accountability may be appropriate for persons involved in carrying out that order can only reasonably be assigned to persons who were at least 21 years old at that time. Therefore, the youngest of them would be 88 years old today. I’m guessing that age group constitutes only 2 or 3 percent of the overall population.

Similarly, the people who instigated the use of water hoses during the Civil Rights Movement were not youngsters when those assaults took place. The most notorious incident occurred on May 3, 1963 when Birmingham Commissioner of Public Safety, Bull Connor, ordered the city’s fire hoses to be turned upon schoolchildren. If Mr. Connor were alive today, he’d be almost 112 years old.

One thing history tells us about older folks is that they can be quite brutal when it comes to people that are different.

Kids in grade school can be quite brutal too when it comes to people they perceive as different.

Religion is much more a prominent factor with older voters than it is younger voters.

I get the same impression. So which of those parameters motivates them more – their age or their religious affiliation?

… not all of one group voted one way or the other?

All the data I have used have shown support and opposition at every age level.

I think one of the limitations we face when considering how to characterize voters is the manner in which the Census Bureau records information about our population. The data is typically based upon certain specific parameters, such as age, race, income, etc. Having that demographic information already formulated tends to encourage pundits (and statisticians) to employ those same parameters in devising their profiles to describe voter behavior.

religiosity has far more to do with voting trends than age.

Well that creates a perplexing dilemma – because the Census Bureau doesn’t record information about religiosity. :eek:


Using data developed and published by the Public Policy Institute of California, I formulated ratios for each of the demographic characteristics they used in evaluating the Prop 8 vote from last November. I arranged those ratios sequentially according to their value and then imposed a basic standard statistical analysis, considering the collection of values as a statistical population. Below are the values (rounded to one decimal) and the demographic (abbreviation) each represents. Refer to the original source data for additional descriptive information.

5.7 Evangelicals
3.3 Republicans
2.2 High School or less
1.9 Protestants
1.7 Income <$40k
1.5 Catholics
1.4 Non-Evangelicals
1.4 Married
1.3 Some College
1.3 Age 55 & Older
1.3 Non-White
1.1 Independents
1.1 Income $40k-$80k
1.1 Election Results
1.0 Age 35-54
1.0 White
0.8 College Grad
0.8 Income > $80k
0.8 Age 18-34
0.6 Never Married
0.5 Democrats
0.3 Non-Religious​

Note that I included the actual results of the election as one of the data values. That ratio is determined by dividing the percentage of yes votes (52) by the percentage of no votes (48 ) [Ratio = 52/48 = 1.1]. Each of the other ratios is determined in the same way.

The mean (average) of these 22 values is slightly less than 1.5, with a standard deviation slightly greater than 1.1. Using those results, the category “Evangelicals” represents a statistical outlier. In other words, that value is so different from all the other values that it cannot be explained within a mathematical measurement consisting of 4 standard deviations from the mean [2 above the mean & 2 below the mean] (Note: mean + 2 standard deviations = slightly less than 3.7).

If we remove the [Evangelicals] outlier and run the analysis again on the remaining 21 values, the revised mean is approximately 1.1 (nearly the same as the actual election results), but in this analysis the value “Republicans” becomes an outlier [mean + 2 standard deviations = slightly greater than 2.5].

What this illustrates is that voters who are included within the demographics of Evangelical Christians or Republican political affiliation are MUCH more likely than ANY of the other demographic descriptions to support Prop 8 [oppose gay marriage in California].

I constructed a pie chart to compare the relative relationship of each of the demographics and illustrate how a voter’s inclusion in each of the descriptions corresponds to the likelihood that they voted yes on Prop 8. The larger the slice of the pie, the more likely affiliation with that particular characteristic resulted in a yes vote.

330331.jpg


Note that a typical voter may be included in a number of the different demographics. For example, one single voter may be a Republican evangelical Christian with a High School education who earns less than $40k per year and is married and over the age of 55.

Though the ratio decreases in the younger portion of the population, age is obviously not the definitive factor. Note that the demographic most likely to reject Prop 8 (support gay marriage in California) are the “Non-Religious.”

It seems peculiar to me that some of us seem intent to ignore the obvious role of religiosity in this struggle. :(
 
Christianity Today is a fairly serious magazine, and doesn't go in for "scaremongery". It isn't quite up to the standards of the Christian Science Monitor, but it's a solid publication with serious editing. Compared to many Christian publications, it's very careful, even stodgy, about what it prints.

I'll second that. I always enjoyed it when I was a Christian and I still consult it on occassionally for this very reason, to see what the more thoughtful people on the other side were thinking. Those who would question this characterization, look up their review of Brokeback Mountain, as well as the film critics defense of reviewing the film to begin with (he was criticized for it).
 
Opinterph, you just made me hard. :-)

Awesome post - it's nice to see I'm not the only stats-geek around here. I love a man who makes his own graphs! :-)
 
Churches trashed and other stuff -- seems to me that sort of thing was mentioned in the article.

Except those are lies. No churches were vandalized, no personal property was destroyed. There were no riots anywhere. They're making that up.


Such compassion...
according to the article, those things happened because of gay reaction to the vote. That makes us all look really good, huh?

Um.. wait.. Christians organize boycotts all the time.. against Disney for offering gay staff benefits, Pepsi for sponsoring Pride Day, Ford for giving their gay employees benefits, Clay Aiken for being Clay Aiken... it's suddenly OUR fault that their didn't work and ours did?

Boycotts are a very acceptable reaction. Why should I go to El Coyote knowing that Marge would be nice to my face but then take the money I pay to donate to a cause that attacks me and my family?


Oh, what a way to lie about my position!

Maybe you should read my siggie.

I've read your siggie.. and you advocate gay people making sure that straight people know we're all walking around carrying guns... if not to scare them.. then for what?
 
I have to say that pretty much "All is Fair in Love and War" except violence, which is uncalled for from any and all sides.

However, as far as Boycotts go, again I have to say that they are Fair Game. If that means hitting some business owners where it hurts to show them that bigotry is wrong, then so be it. If their name happens to make it on a list because they donated to a cause against Gay Rights, then they should be "Man Enough" to stand up for their vote and justify their reasoning for doing so.
 
I have to say that pretty much "All is Fair in Love and War" except violence, which is uncalled for from any and all sides.

However, as far as Boycotts go, again I have to say that they are Fair Game. If that means hitting some business owners where it hurts to show them that bigotry is wrong, then so be it. If their name happens to make it on a list because they donated to a cause against Gay Rights, then they should be "Man Enough" to stand up for their vote and justify their reasoning for doing so.

You nailed it, brother.
 
Intimidation? :rotflmao: If these idiots ever tried living as an openly gay man in a homophobic town for a year or so, they'd learn something about intimidation.
 
I've read your siggie.. and you advocate gay people making sure that straight people know we're all walking around carrying guns... if not to scare them.. then for what?

That's not what you said before.

But police don't carry guns to scare people, they carry guns to counter criminals. Anyone who would think of beating up someone for being gay is already a criminal at heart, and the point of being armed is to let them know that "at heart" is where it had better stay, for their own safety. It's aiming at the same effect that concealed-carry "on demand" laws have on rape -- it plunges, because would-be rapists suddenly know that their targets may not be easy prey... they may have "teeth".

But if knowing that there are gays packing heat scares some haters, great! It's good for them -- builds character.

You nailed it, brother.

Amen to that!

Intimidation? :rotflmao: If these idiots ever tried living as an openly gay man in a homophobic town for a year or so, they'd learn something about intimidation.

Abso. Nothing like wondering every morning if your tires will have been slashed, or if there will be shit on your porch, or something similar, to make for happy days.
So far, all I've gotten is "DIE FAG" written on my truck, and been threatened by armed rednecks at a campsite I was checking out, called a pervert in public, and a few other things.
Were I a "flamer", though, I'd be dead already.
 
I have to say that pretty much "All is Fair in Love and War" except violence, which is uncalled for from any and all sides.

However, as far as Boycotts go, again I have to say that they are Fair Game. If that means hitting some business owners where it hurts to show them that bigotry is wrong, then so be it. If their name happens to make it on a list because they donated to a cause against Gay Rights, then they should be "Man Enough" to stand up for their vote and justify their reasoning for doing so.

I agree too. That's why it shocked me that Lieutenant Alphie was suggesting I do something to people (older folks) that vote to deny me rights.

I'm thinking the whole time, haven't the older people learned already how wrong it is to treat people that might think differently than you? Or that might look differently than you?

I'm also a strong believer in free speech. It's ridiculous that some posters on here give off the impression that they're up for a debate but hit the report button when he or she feels cornered.
 
police don't carry guns to scare people, they carry guns to counter criminals.

Not like I'm really feeling like going this far off topic but You're not a policeman. You're not paid (or trained) to keep the peace. You're not Batman. You're not carrying a gun to keep the peace, you're getting registered in a very public way to make sure people are afraid to cross you. And hey... I guess it works. Desperate times call for desperate measures and I don't fault you one bit.

But since you advocate carrying guns to protect yourself, why are you against a boycott of anti-gay businesses? I mean, it's also a way to counter people who hate you.

But if knowing that there are gays packing heat scares some haters, great! It's good for them -- builds character.

Then we agree. And if Christians are scared into not donating money to hurt me... it's good for them. Builds character.
 
And it bears repeating..

Christians organize boycotts all the time.. against Disney for offering gay staff benefits, Pepsi for sponsoring Pride Day, Ford for giving their gay employees benefits, Clay Aiken for being Clay Aiken... it's suddenly OUR fault that their didn't work and ours did?

Boycotts are a very acceptable reaction. Why should I go to El Coyote knowing that Marge would be nice to my face but then take the money I pay to donate to a cause that attacks me and my family?
 
And it bears repeating..

Christians organize boycotts all the time.. against Disney for offering gay staff benefits, Pepsi for sponsoring Pride Day, Ford for giving their gay employees benefits, Clay Aiken for being Clay Aiken... it's suddenly OUR fault that their didn't work and ours did?

Boycotts are a very acceptable reaction. Why should I go to El Coyote knowing that Marge would be nice to my face but then take the money I pay to donate to a cause that attacks me and my family?
\

But (to my knowledge at least) most of those boycotts never demanded that the companies fire gay employees. They demanded that companies stop either providing benefits to gay employee's partners (in effect legitimizing their relationships) or supporting/sponsoring/advertising gay events and media. There's also a difference between boycotting and hounding and obnoxiously protesting right outside a business.

Either way, having been an active, practicing Christian at the time of the Disney, Pepsi, and Ford boycotts, I'd say that those movements were outside the mainstream of Christianity. Most Christians that I knew continued to patronize those businesses, and (although I don't have any numbers handy) if my memory is correct, their revenues at the time reflect that. That being said, those actions have obviously helped stigmatize Christians in general in the eyes of the gay community. In other words, the actions of a few extremists have affected perceptions of the group as a whole, a statement which could equally have been applied to the author's points in the article.

One area where I too am troubled is in the areas of religious freedom. Hearing a law professor state that gay rights should trump religious freedom, that a Christian photographer was sued for refusing to photograph a Lesbian comittment ceremony (in a state without gay marriage), that doctors are being forced to provide services that go against their faith, and that religious groups are being denied tax exempt status just for refusing to hold comittment ceremonies in religious buildings, etc is enough to scare even this materialistic atheist. The same laws that protect my right to hold and practice that belief are the same ones that protect a Christians right to practice theirs.
 
that doctors are being forced to provide services that go against their faith,

You lost any credibility there.

If you're saying a doctor should be allowed to refuse to treat a gay person, you're wrong. 100% wrong. No health care giver should EVER be allowed to decide who meets their own personal moral standards for treatment.



and that religious groups are being denied tax exempt status just for refusing to hold comittment ceremonies in religious buildings,

Another bullshit lie told by the Christians. They lie about everything... that never happened and never will. Nobody has EVER been "forced" to hold a commitment ceremony and no church has ever lost it's tax-free status for not marrying two lesbians.
 
But (to my knowledge at least) most of those boycotts never demanded that the companies fire gay employees.

Nobody has ever demanded that Christians be fired. But we DID boycott businesses owned or run by people who gave money to hurt us. The gay community has NEVER donated money to take away the rights of Christians.

They demanded that companies stop either providing benefits to gay employee's partners (in effect legitimizing their relationships) or supporting/sponsoring/advertising gay events and media.

Um, and you support that? You think it's OK for a "religion" to demand a private company take away rights or benefits?


There's also a difference between boycotting and hounding and obnoxiously protesting right outside a business.

Hm.. Like the Christians protesting, threatening and murdering people outside abortion clinics? You ever heard of Fred Phelps?


Either way, having been an active, practicing Christian at the time of the Disney, Pepsi, and Ford boycotts, I'd say that those movements were outside the mainstream of Christianity.

Oh, here we go with the "we're not all like that" bullshit. Sorry.. maybe you're not ALL like that... but most of them are.

The same laws that protect my right to hold and practice that belief are the same ones that protect a Christians right to practice theirs.

So wait... gay people should not have rights because Christians don't believe we should? Why do they get to trump us?

You are 100% wrong in all of this. Sorry.
 
You lost any credibility there.

If you're saying a doctor should be allowed to refuse to treat a gay person, you're wrong. 100% wrong. No health care giver should EVER be allowed to decide who meets their own personal moral standards for treatment.

I am not saying a doctor should deny medical treatment to a gay person period. However, providing fertility treatments is a different story. Just as a doctor should be able to refuse to perform abortions or provide the morning after pill because it violates their morals, they should be able to deny this. Were I a physician, I would certainly hesistate to treat a single person (no matter what their sexual orientation) because I believe children are best brought up in two parent comitted households.





Another bullshit lie told by the Christians. They lie about everything... that never happened and never will. Nobody has EVER been "forced" to hold a commitment ceremony and no church has ever lost it's tax-free status for not marrying two lesbians.

not much we can say here...this has come down to he said-she said. The author claims this has happened, you don't believe it. As I said in an earlier post, I consider the publication Christianity Today to be of high enough journalistic standards to believe it.
 
I am not saying a doctor should deny medical treatment to a gay person period.

I see.

Because that's pretty much what that "coming storm" ad suggested. And allowing Doctors to become moral judge and jury? Are you REALLY comfortable with that?


not much we can say here...this has come down to he said-she said. The author claims this has happened, you don't believe it. As I said in an earlier post, I consider the publication Christianity Today to be of high enough journalistic standards to believe it.

And I'm saying that considering the other bullshit in that story, I can assure you that like most Christians, she's full of shit and making up those "poor woe is me" stories that they throw around to pretend that they're a down-trodden minority.

Remember that silly "war on Christmas" hysteria they try to stir up every year?
 
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