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Reid now hold 7 point lead against Angle

It's not unreasonable to use undemocratic means to protect minority rights.

That's why we have a representative form of government and an unelected judiciary.

That is true. However, it is not the right, nor the responsibility of these representatives to use unrepresentative means to prevent bad legislation from getting through. That's why the courts exist and why the Supreme court exercises judicial review. Using undemocratic means to preserve the democracy in the end actually leads to its destruction.
 
First, we're talking about a constitutional amendment which is beyond the jurisdiction of the courts.

Second, minority rights are exempt from democratic scrutiny for the very reason that they are in the minority while democracy operates on majority rule.

A modern liberal democracy runs on that principle, and I believe that fact has already been settled for 50+ years.

You yourself noted that they had nowhere near the votes, so what's your point? They would have passed it and nothing would have happened. In fact, I would wager that public outcry would have been even more severe.
 
It's not unreasonable to use undemocratic means to protect minority rights.

That's why we have a representative form of government and an unelected judiciary.

We started out protecting minority rights by undemocratic means, exercising the right to insurrection. The victors made a great effort to write a government structure that would protect what they'd won, but within a few generations, once the memory of the common enemy of their liberties had faded, the journey to making that government work as dreamed began traumatically and tragically in the Civil War. That struggle has never ceased; it merely moves from one place to another, one group to another, while those who've already "won" battle to keep the victory a reality.

Ballots are better than bullets, and a people who assent to their founding documents and the equality proclaimed there even better. Plainly, though, if we had a nation of such people we wouldn't be having all the clashes we do -- and we wouldn't get into situations where we have to choose between a Reid and an Angle, but would have two candidates worthy of respect, and the difficulty of the decision would be trying to choose between two excellent leaders.
 
there is no comparison in vollume or intent. the republicans have abused the constitution for almost two years.

In the ways that really count, the Republicans have been abusing the constitution for eight years.

And now we have a president who is continuing that abuse in every way. He's making a lot of feel-good, make-personal-lives-better change, but in the steps toward a truly imperial presidency with police state powers, he hasn't pulled back one bit.

Filibustering belongs in the dustbin of history along with the electoral college, the Whig Party, and powdered wigs.

So you believe in mob rule and feudalism.
 
Kulindahr, a 51% majority is hardly mob-rule!

Sure it is. In fact it's worse than a larger majority, because it means that a larger minority can have its wishes and rights trampled.

The ability of a minority in the Senate is not a deficiency, it is a virtue -- it keeps those with barely a majority from stampeding over the rest. It would be even better if somehow we could mandate there be three parties in the Senate, to slow things even more.

The function of the House is to reflect the popular will. The function of the Senate is to deliberate and put a damper on the popular will by representing the needs and views not of the people but of the states. The assumption is that mob rule, which is what a number of Founding Fathers called majority rule, is most often irrational, emotion-driven, and rarely in the long-term best interests of either the country or liberty.

So when legislation gets bottled up in the Senate, the Senate is doing what it's supposed to do: serve as a filter. It may not be acting as a good filter, but it's acting as a filter. It dampens the fires of the popular will so that, in theory, what comes out is tempered by calm deliberation.

That's why the decision to make Senators popularly elected was foolish: it made the Senators captives of the popular will just as the Representatives. It was a bastardization of the concept of Congress, exalting the false idol of democracy over the preservation of the Republic.
 
Touche, my good friend!

However, I do think your point has some of the "straw man argument" scent to it, since the focus was what was happening in the Senate.

JockBoy, I maintain that filibustering in the Senate effectively means minority rule, and that's that.

I guess my mind just won't stretch any further on this issue, and next, I'd want ditch the very undemocratic Electoral College. This country really is backward, isn't it?

So you favor doing away with the Republic in all but name. The point of the Electoral College is that the President is not president of the people, but of the Union. It has been distorted by the fact that some states have such a huge number more delegates than others. If it is to be reformed, it should be by granting every state a minimum of five electoral votes, regardless of population.

Otherwise you get feudalism, with the cities running the country for their benefit, treating the rural populace as serfs, dictating use of the land not according to what is best, but by what they think is nice or aesthetic. Private property is already a farce; your idea would be its death-knell. The U.S. would become an empire, with politicians appealing only to the mobs of the cities, leaving the rural lands to fall to control of the giant corporations -- and we know how they generally treat people.

Better that Alaska, California, the Pacific Northwest, Texas, and others secede and go their own ways than to abolish the Electoral College.
 
Otherwise you get feudalism, with the cities running the country for their benefit, treating the rural populace as serfs, dictating use of the land not according to what is best, but by what they think is nice or aesthetic.

Isn't that at least a teensy bit melodramatic?

I'm not sure why the rural population needs some special disproportionate power. Yes, they're a minority - but one of many minorities that must muddle along, most without such power.

The U.S. would become an empire, with politicians appealing only to the mobs of the cities...

Or as some might say, appealing to the majority of citizens.
 
Isn't that at least a teensy bit melodramatic?

No -- it's happening in Oregon. Laws about rural land use come from the majorities in the cities, and have far more to do with aesthetics than with sensible use of land. Point in case: in most of Oregon now, you can't build a new house on a parcel of land smaller than 160 acres. It doesn't matter if the land is actually useful for anything, e.g. whether it's bare rock in the middle of a forest or hard-pan desert where nothing will grow without human manipulation of the land, the rule is hard and fast. And that's just one example. There are laws saying how much forest must be left along roads, so drivers from the cities don't have to look at logging operations. There are laws about emissions from barns, so people from the cities don't have to put up with the stink. There are laws about having a certain acreage of land a certain elevation above a flood plain, the area dependent on the number and type of livestock a farmer has, all so city people with weak tummies don't have to read about cows drowning. A law was proposed, but thankfully failed, that would have required dairy farmers to fence off trees in their pastures, so cows couldn't take refuge under them in a storm and perhaps be struck by lightning. There are laws about rivers, beaches, lakes, and woods, none of which have any relation to sensible land use, but do have to do with what city folks and tourists get to look at where they pass through.

The result of many of these laws, which are just about always passed by liberals? Farms fail -- and are bought up by giant corporations. Small businesses fail, and are replaced by branches of giant corporations. In other words, Democrats are excellent friends of giant corporations and enemies of little people.

I'm not sure why the rural population needs some special disproportionate power. Yes, they're a minority - but one of many minorities that must muddle along, most without such power.

Well, the Founding Fathers disagreed with you, and if you happened to be a rural resident where city people are telling you how to run your land, without any knowledge of the land and its needs, you'd get it.

Or as some might say, appealing to the majority of citizens.

Not having gay marriage appeals to the majority of citizens. I guess you must be okay with that?
 
Kuli, don't mistake me for being anti-Republic. I am quite smitten with our system that makes a balance of majority-rule and minority power - including the combination of popularly elected reps, appointments (some for life), the filibuster and so on.

The question is only where the lines are drawn between majority rule and minority balance - not that the lines are there at all.

I'm sure the Founders would disagree with me about many things, including slavery and women's suffrage. But we'd agree on other things - one of which would be the power of the people to make modifications to the systems they established if enough people support the change.
 
Kuli, don't mistake me for being anti-Republic. I am quite smitten with our system that makes a balance of majority-rule and minority power - including the combination of popularly elected reps, appointments (some for life), the filibuster and so on.

The question is only where the lines are drawn between majority rule and minority balance - not that the lines are there at all.

I'm sure the Founders would disagree with me about many things, including slavery and women's suffrage. But we'd agree on other things - one of which would be the power of the people to make modifications to the systems they established if enough people support the change.

Do away with the Electoral College, and the Republic is dead.
 
Do away with the Electoral College, and the Republic is dead.

It's not necessary to do away with the EC, when mere modifications could be implemented.

But we both know nothing is going to happen to the EC for the foreseeable future.
 
Kulin, here I'm sitting, reading all the stuff you've written, and one thing comes to mind: your notions are terribly Amero-centric.

What do you think rural citizens in Canada feel about your notions? In Australia? In Sweden? In the rest of rural Europe?

They do quite well—probably better than we—without an Electoral College. You don't hear cries of feudalism in any of those regions.

My beef about the Electoral College is that it effectively disenfranchises millions of Americans. Our esteemed colleague JB3, nee Droid, is a Republican in a very heavily Democratic state, but like millions of his colleagues, he has no purpose whatsoever in showing up at the polls on Election Day. It's a complete waste of his time.

That's just flat-out wrong, Kulin, no matter how many fancy words you hurl at me about "feudalism", and I'll go to my grave thinking that.

So you want to disenfranchise entire states?

New York City would have more clout than the smallest ten states combined. There would be no point at all in people in those states voting -- no matter what they did, the people in the cities would turn them into serfs. No national politician wold campaign anywhere but the big cities, because it wouldn't be cost effective.

The U.S. is made up of states, as in sovereign entities, which are supposed to be bound together by a federal government that isn't supposed to do anything but serve as referee between the sovereign states and handle foreign policy. That it's become a tyrant is no argument for taking it the rest of the way and turning the states into provinces.

We're already headed for economic feudalism, with the wealthiest one percent running things, enabled in doing so by an archaic concept of private property, assisted in doing so by a corrupt government (to paraphrase the movie Aladdin, "They can be bought!"). Reducing the states to mere lines where laws are different, where the big states would determine the presidency and the small might as well stay home, would only further that.

And the geographic feudalism is real; I've been watching it grow in Oregon, and get worse. Even a Democrat County Commissioner here sees it; he told me a while back that half of the new laws and regulations sent to the counties by the state have really only the function of making the countryside a nice place to visit for the people in the cities; his way of putting it was to say that they're making the rural parts of the state into their park/playground, and we all get to be the living exhibits and caretakers the city people can look at and say, "How quaint!"

Of course that really means the rich city people; the poor don't get out much. So our countryside is turning into some prissy liberal's notion of what forests and farms and rivers "ought" to look like -- whether it makes economic or even environmental sense (and believe me, we have plenty of environmental regulations which are totally screwing up the environment).

So for the other federal offices, you should already know my prescription there: representation in House delegations should be proportional; as I've noted before, my guess is that we'd get at least seven different political parties seated from California, and end up with a dozen or more in the House. People's votes would actually count again, and we could actually be represented -- in reality, not in legal fiction.

And Senators should go back to being selected however a state decides -- personally, I'd go with a system something like having randomly chosen legislators choose candidates, and let the governor choose the one he likes, but whatever.

By worshiping democracy, the Republic has tilted off-balance. Getting rid of the Electoral College would kick it further out of kilter. Making the House delegations proportional would kick it back toward equilibrium.
 
It's not necessary to do away with the EC, when mere modifications could be implemented.

But we both know nothing is going to happen to the EC for the foreseeable future.

Right -- like guarantee each state, no matter how small, at least five votes, and put a cap on the total a state could have.
 
Kuli, what do you think of splitting a state's electoral votes - as I believed Maine and Nebraska do - rather than the winner-takes-all model?

And what do you think of a mandated split for all states?
 
Kuli, what do you think of splitting a state's electoral votes - as I believed Maine and Nebraska do - rather than the winner-takes-all model?

And what do you think of a mandated split for all states?

I'd leave it up to the states.

What the Electoral College represents is that the states are electing the president -- not the people. If some state voted to let their governor decide how to cast the votes, I'd let them -- however silly it may be. Of course the decision to do that has to be made by the legislature; that much is mandated by the constitution, but I don't see why a legislature couldn't say "We're delegating the decision on this to the people".

And if some state was totally made up of ReligioPublicans, they could cast lots if they wanted.

A lot of people want to see California's votes split; I don't agree -- I want to see the state split (into Jefferson, California, and Diego).
 
How am I wrong? Democrats used it enough that, at that time, they set records for its use. And they did it for the exact reasons the republicans are using it now.

You keep coming back with the "Democrats did it..... Democrats did it.......Democrats did it" defense.

So you are agreeing with me that the Republicans are abusing the filibuster. Glad you agree.
 
You keep coming back with the "Democrats did it..... Democrats did it.......Democrats did it" defense.

So you are agreeing with me that the Republicans are abusing the filibuster. Glad you agree.

and lastly... does anyone really believe at this point, knowing what we do, that Bush needed to be stopped?

that is MUCH different from using the filibuster to sabotage the entire government from functioning just to make political hay, at the expence of hungry unemployed people.
 
and lastly... does anyone really believe at this point, knowing what we do, that Bush needed to be stopped?

that is MUCH different from using the filibuster to sabotage the entire government from functioning just to make political hay, at the expence of hungry unemployed people.

Bush needed to be shot. In a perfect world, the military would have looked at the orders to go to Iraq, recognized them as immoral and illegal, and sat still while telling Congress the CiC was not fit to live, let alone serve as President.

No, wait -- in a perfect world, Bush would never have been elected, we wouldn't have offended Muslims often enough to stir up an Al Qaeda, the Twin Towers would still be standing....




<sigh>
 
You keep coming back with the "Democrats did it..... Democrats did it.......Democrats did it" defense.

So you are agreeing with me that the Republicans are abusing the filibuster. Glad you agree.

I've never said otherwise. However, you need to man up and recognize the fact that what they're doing isn't new, and it certainly is not without precedent.
 
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