Right-wing forums and homosexuality

[Kulindahr]

Heh, heh. I shall have to add that to my arsenal.

You are right that the only response to deeply held religious beliefs is ridicule and denunciation. Irrationally held opinions can never be effectively answered by reasoned argument.

I am a Baptist preacher. Well, I'm a licensed Baptist preacher despite my having become an atheist. Nevertheless, I'm still a preacher. I preach the liberating gospel of atheism.

I am the antichrist. I deny that the Christ has come in the flesh. I have renounced God and all his ways.

Do you get a kick out of helping the enemy?

All that does is show them that we have to be defeated. What it says to me is that you enjoy being hated.

If you want another tactic to add, tell them "I'll pray for you", smile beatifically, and go on your way.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh, I grant that coming out may be motivated by a frustrating anxiety of living an inauthentic life or some such. In those cases, political change may be the farthest thing from that persons mind. I suppose it wasn't even particularly close to my consciousness when I came out. Nevertheless, I knew that it would change my surroundings and my relationships whether for good or ill. I found that it changed them in both ways. It's never as bad as you expect and it's never as good as you hope for.

Stuff and nonsense.

Read my blog. Coming out was worse than I could have imagined.

 

[Kulindahr]

From a "black and white" perspective there are those who put everything on the line for our Equality and what is right and fair, and the other who listen to every level of bile that's spewed from Right-Wing forums about homosexuality while lacking the intestinal fortitude (either politically as elected representatives, or privately as guides to live one's life), and do everything that they can to prove that they're not "one of us."

Or even remotely sympathetic for that matter.

Then there are those, some here on JUB, who fight against gay rights by spewing bile back. However satisfying it may be to the ego to shit all over others, it's immature, counterproductive, and just plain stupid.

If we want others to accept us, we have to accept them.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Then there are those, some here on JUB, who fight against gay rights by spewing bile back. However satisfying it may be to the ego to shit all over others, it's immature, counterproductive, and just plain stupid.

If we want others to accept us, we have to accept them.

Which, as a moderator and contributor of this forum, I've always respected your view, and have learned a lot from you.

You've rarely done that; if ever!

Used your ego in an attempt shit on others.

 

[maxpowr9]

Then there are those, some here on JUB, who fight against gay rights by spewing bile back. However satisfying it may be to the ego to shit all over others, it's immature, counterproductive, and just plain stupid.

If we want others to accept us, we have to accept them.

An infinite amount of times this.


It takes some skillful forensics to manipulate people's beliefs. You don't tell a person they are wrong because they will disagree with you and dismiss what you said. You have to get themselves to conclude why their opinion is wrong.

 

[Knucklehead]

Rightwingers are scumbags there's no doubt about that.

How about gay right wingers though? We have a few of them right here on JUB.

But to your topic, I sometimes post on a truckers forum that has just about the same level of hatred .They ban liberals there too.

 

[Achilleus]

I grew up in a very religious society; much of what is said on that forum sounds quite familiar. Sadly, it was stuff I would have said not so many years ago. I was never a republican, but I was definitely conservative in my political views.

Now look, I am on here with a bunch of gays. I dare say, I think I am keeping much better company now.

 

[Achilleus]

"In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred."

-Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Then there are those, some here on JUB, who fight against gay rights by spewing bile back. However satisfying it may be to the ego to shit all over others, it's immature, counterproductive, and just plain stupid.

If we want others to accept us, we have to accept them.

Hear, Hear!

I couldn't agree more. In the aftermath of Prop. 8, a mob of people started protesting outside the Mormon temples in California. They spray painted the walls, and other stupid shit like that; Nothing was accomplished. But the gay community in Utah, being a bit smarter, and out of political necessity, opened dialog with the Mormon Church. Look what they accomplished, church support for an anti-discrimination bill.

We all have to live in this world together. If we want to do it peacefully, we have to talk to each other respectfully.

 

[Kulindahr]

An infinite amount of times this.


It takes some skillful forensics to manipulate people's beliefs. You don't tell a person they are wrong because they will disagree with you and dismiss what you said. You have to get themselves to conclude why their opinion is wrong.

That's something I learned from Martin Luther. Of course there are places where he gave up on people (like the Pope), but over and over again he started with what opponents believed and showed them how their own premises led to the conclusion they were opposing.

With right-wing religious folks, that's not easy. But they'll listen a lot better if you try.

 

[Kulindahr]

I grew up in a very religious society; much of what is said on that forum sounds quite familiar. Sadly, it was stuff I would have said not so many years ago. I was never a republican, but I was definitely conservative in my political views.

Now look, I am on here with a bunch of gays. I dare say, I think I am keeping much better company now.

In all the places I've been, and all the churches I've been a part of, I can think of only two which I would actually call Christian in the real sense rather than just a title. One was Lutheran (LCMS), the other was Foursquare.

In both of those, you could walk in as a homeless gay drug addict and be treated the same as the guy in the three-piece suit -- and welcomed by that guy. They definitely understood Jesus' words that "From those to whom much is given, much is asked."



BTW, He was talking about love, not about political donations.

 

[Kulindahr]

There actually is a neologism for advocates focused only on the marriage issue, but it escapes me at the moment...

Monomonogamists?

 

[construct]

You are right that the only response to deeply held religious beliefs is ridicule and denunciation. Irrationally held opinions can never be effectively answered by reasoned argument.

Do you get a kick out of helping the enemy?

All that does is show them that we have to be defeated. What it says to me is that you enjoy being hated.

Reasoned argument against deeply held religious beliefs is casting pearls before swine. Remember what Jesus said about doing that. He said, "DON'T DO IT"!

The only thing that works is "jamming" in one way or another. Ridicule and denunciation, if shrill enough, can create that sort of cognitive dissonance. My saying "I AM the Antichrist" with the same inflection as "I AM that I AM" is, I think, extreme enough in a lot of cases. Jesus was jamming when he permitted his disciples to pluck corn on the sabbath.

Now, don't talk about that rainbow choker as if that were reasoned argument. It is "jamming." It is "coming out." It does change things. It is political.

 

[Kulindahr]

Reasoned argument against deeply held religious beliefs is casting pearls before swine. Remember what Jesus said about doing that. He said, "DON'T DO IT"!

The only thing that works is "jamming" in one way or another. Ridicule and denunciation, if shrill enough, can create that sort of cognitive dissonance. My saying "I AM the Antichrist" with the same inflection as "I AM that I AM" is, I think, extreme enough in a lot of cases. Jesus was jamming when he permitted his disciples to pluck corn on the sabbath.

Now, don't talk about that rainbow choker as if that were reasoned argument. It is "jamming." It is "coming out." It does change things. It is political.

I'm not talking about "reasoned argument", I'm talking about common ground or just common civility. I've yet to meet the conservative Christian for whom the declaration "I AM the Antichrist" is going to open a dialogue -- whereas my approach has, on numerous occasions.

As for the choker, think about what a conservative Christian is going to see there -- it has yet to be that it means I like guys, right off.

 

[construct]

I'm not talking about "reasoned argument", I'm talking about common ground or just common civility. I've yet to meet the conservative Christian for whom the declaration "I AM the Antichrist" is going to open a dialogue -- whereas my approach has, on numerous occasions.

Jeeze-Louise! That statement wouldn't be an ice-breaker, for cripe's sake! It would be dropped into the middle of an already involved conversation and accompanied by a sly smile. Then, I follow it up with "You should follow me." (Besides, if I'm not THE Antichrist, I am very close to the spirit of antichrist.)

It's one of a whole stockpile of set pieces I've worked up to jam into the middle of theological arguments that are going nowhere. The conversation almost always ends at an impasse anyway. They always end by saying, "I'll pray for you," to which I reply, "Thank you. I need all the prayers I can get," with my cat-like smile.

My ice-breaker is usually a question about what they are already talking or thinking about. (I learned that from Jesus, too.) And it's a helluvalot better than "Have you heard of the Four Spiritual Laws?"

And sure, they figure your choker out soon enough. And soon enough they figure out who I am, too, but not before they've already figured out that they aren't talking to a religious illiterate. Both are part of educational experiences, and neither are explicitly discursive argumentation.

 

[Mariatenebre]

So you demonstrate how we deserve respect by shitting on their beliefs?

That's a tactic called "getting out the vote for the other side".


I prefer the tactic of sitting on a rock in the middle of the river with a bottle of SkinnyDip beer, wearing just my rainbow hex-nut choker and NRA hat, with my guitar and singing songs about Jesus.

That totally confuses them and has provided some openings for actually productive conversations. Your little game just fuels hate, because it is hate.

I want these kind of people to hate me as I hate them. Our ideologies are diametrically opposed and I am in the right and they in the wrong. There are two sides to every story one side is right and the other is wrong. The person who wishes these two sides to compromise is evil for when you compromise food and poison the end result is death. I love causing fights with these fools and I love smashing their faith based nonsense with truth and reason. They fact that these people hate me only gives me the greatest joy. Plus many of them will talk shit to me only to realize that I am a professional shit talker. I can talk a person down so hard their neck will shrink.

My tactic is to leave the house dressed like a mix between Appolonia Kotero, Vanity, Elvira Mistress of the Dark, Stevie Nicks and Aleyxis K. Tylor. I always cause a commotion by being so immaculately dressed and the redkneck broodmothers always seem to hate me for taking their husbands eyes. When I hear a conversation of ignorance from these fools I just must go in and smash their foolish world down. Which it is very easy to do so and I love making a scene. It is no wonder the people at town all think I am some sort of evil witch or something!

 

[Kulindahr]

And sure, they figure your choker out soon enough. And soon enough they figure out who I am, too, but not before they've already figured out that they aren't talking to a religious illiterate. Both are part of educational experiences, and neither are explicitly discursive argumentation.

I've been asked more than once if it represents Noah and the rainbow. That's what they take it for at first, because that's what fits in their worldview.

 

[construct]

JockBoy, I understand your sentiments entirely.

Maturity has brought me a sense of realism, however, and the simple fact remains is that these kinds of people just don't change. They can't change. I think they're religious because they've inherited some kind of "religion gene", in the same way that we can't change, because we have a "gay gene". We Americans have become particularly heavily infiltrated with them because of the Puritans.

Some of them—maybe even most of them—really are nice people, they just don't have the neural pathways in their brains to understand homosexuality, and they never will.

The best thing you can do is accept them the way they are, while doing everything you can to keep them from stripping away your rights. Maybe if you're a good enough neighbor to them, they'll even accept you as a person, if not your sexuality.

Well you know, I'm not so sure.

I've changed my mind about a few things in my life (as you can see from reading my posts in this thread). That is why I don't give up on the possibility that others might change their minds, too. I know that it probably won't happen as a result of one conversation just as I seldom change mind about things overnight.

Just to make sure I'm clear, I changed my mind about whether same-sex desire and sexual activity is good. I changed my mind about whether the claims of religions are true. I changed my mind about which political party aligned most closely with my positions. You see, I've changed my mind about a number of important things.

The key to speeding up that change is, I believe, doing or saying something that will stick and work around in the mind long after the meeting is over. It must be something that conflicts with their prior conceptions. Its like something submerged in a river that will collect the silt of additional conflicting input until a sandbar or an island emerges. Once that new formation emerges, it will force a rethinking all by itself. These new observations will force a shift in the way their outlook is ordered, and change occurs.

That is how one initiates or facilitates slow education. The trick for the "teacher" is not to expect instant learning, not to expect instant change. That almost never happens.

 

[Kulindahr]

The best thing you can do is accept them the way they are, while doing everything you can to keep them from stripping away your rights. Maybe if you're a good enough neighbor to them, they'll even accept you as a person, if not your sexuality.

 

[NickCole]

Everybody, and I mean absolutely everybody, is guilty of that on some level.

That's not true.

There is no human personality trait or response, and certainly not stubbornness and self-defensiveness about one's beliefs, that "everybody absolutely everybody" is guilty of.

 

[NickCole]

Funny that you call yourself a "student of human nature."

Funny because it's true.

If you believe that everybody absolutely everybody is stubborn and self-defensive about their beliefs you really ought to widen the range of people you interact with.

Some have deeply held beliefs and are not self-defensive, just comfortably at peace with them. Some aren't all that commited to beliefs and are pliable about changing their minds. And some people are genuinely open minded to new ideas and beliefs, and rather than stubborn and defensive they're eager to hear about different ways of looking at things.

Interesting you use the same terminology Obama used, that people "cling" to their beliefs. I'm willing to believe it's true of you and JockBoy87 since you two say so, but it's by no means true about everybody absolutely everybody.