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Russia Goes Rogue

Russia, in my view, was provoked.

How can Russia be "provoked" by a country asserting its rights over its own territory? What legal rights does Russia have within the territorial confines of Georgia and any internal disputes therein, I ask you? Where is the provocation, other than Russia's provocation of the entire affair from the very beginning?

I have already posted this last week, but thought it worth posting one more time.

According to Aslan Doukaev, the director of RFE/RL's [Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty] North Caucasus Service, "For years, Russia has made repeated attempts to provoke Georgia into taking military action against its breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Behind that plan was a basic belief that a Georgian crackdown on these regions -- which was bound to cause destruction, civilian casualties, and an exodus of refugees -- would discredit Tbilisi in the eyes of its Western backers and cast permanent doubts on its aspirations to join NATO and the European Union. ... The Georgians finally obliged last week. .... Putin's statement on August 9 that the fighting in South Ossetia virtually demolished in Russia's eyes any claim Georgia formally had to the region, and that "a return to the status quo" is now impossible may backfire as it exposes Russia to charges of land grabbing and abetting separatism."

Who is provoking whom, I wonder?

You are obviously unaware of what has led to this conflict and so I refer you to the Wikipedia.org entry on the Georgian-Ossetian conflict.

Perhaps it will give you a better understanding of what is actually going on here. Russia has no standing in this conflict, and yet has consistently fanned the flames for just this sort of conflagration. They are not at all just some innocent bystanders "provoked" by outside forces. They began this with the full intention of carrying it through to its violent conclusion.

Are you forgetting who these people are? Are you saying you perhaps have no notion of what sort of people the Russians are?
 
How can Russia be "provoked" by a country asserting its rights over its own territory? What legal rights does Russia have within the territorial confines of Georgia and any internal disputes therein, I ask you?


You seem to be forgetting or ignoring the fact that South Ossetia succeeded from Georgia way back in 1992. As a result, Russia has a UN Peace-Keeping mandate in the region. So, yes they did have a right to be in the area. And they were attacked in a military-assault by Georgia first.

And in typical Neocon fashion, you are seemingly advocating U.S. military involvement in the area, and looking to prompt a World War.

The U.S. has poked its nose in too many conflicts in the past, and this is one conflict that is not a concern to us, militarily. I have no problem with the U.S. acting as a peace-keeper and negotiating between both parties ... however the U.S. taking the side of Georgia, as is to be expected in the ideology of NeoConservatism, is clearly making matters more complicated. The U.S. does not need to become involved in every single Global conflict.

I am still suspicious that given how badly Bush wanted this Missile Defense Shield and wasn't getting it, that he goaded Georgia into this conflict, knowing what the result would be ... which he used as justification for the shield.
 
You seem to be forgetting or ignoring the fact that South Ossetia succeeded from Georgia way back in 1992. As a result, Russia has a UN Peace-Keeping mandate in the region. So, yes they did have a right to be in the area. And they were attacked in a military-assault by Georgia first.

Actually the peacekeeping "mandate" as you refer to it was a Russian brokered deal to which Georgia agreed. The UN took no part in the discussions.

The war ended through a Russian-brokered ceasefire that established a joint peacekeeping force and left South Ossetia divided between the rivaling authorities.

In the face of inner instability following the military coup against President Zviad Gamsakhurdia, Georgia agreed to the negotiations to avoid the confrontation with Russia. On 24 June 1992, the Head of the State Council of Georgia, Eduard Shevardnadze and Russian President Boris Yeltsin met to discuss the question of South Ossetia. A ceasefire was agreed upon and on 14 July 1992, a peacekeeping operation began, consisting of a Joint Control Commission and joint military patrols of Georgians, Russians and Ossetians (North and South Ossetians).

And I never claimed the Russians had no right to be in South Ossetia. I said they had no right to enter Georgia proper.

Even the Russians acknowledged this at the beginning, but they were of course lying. As usual.

On Monday 11 August 2008 Russian Colonel General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, said that Russia would abide by the terms of the peacekeeping agreement for South Ossetia worked out between Georgia and Russia in 1992. "We are not moving beyond the boundaries," Nogovitsyn said. "This is a matter of principle. The 1992 agreement, which was signed by the Georgian side too, clearly defines the boundaries of responsibility of the Russian contingent, and the peacekeepers do not have the task of invading Georgian territory."

And the Russians were not attacked in the initial assault. Read up on the time lines. They are available all over the web. I have provided a few, but I am sure that you can find your own.

And in typical Neocon fashion, you are seemingly advocating U.S. military involvement in the area, and looking to prompt a World War.

I am not amused by this. Firstly, you, along with too many others here, have a delight for labelling anyone who disagrees with your position as a neo con. The fact is that I am not one, so kindly cease and desist on that front.

Secondly, please indicate for me where I have ever advocated for US military involvement in that area. Once you have done this, then I may continue with you on this particular ridiculous claim you have made.

I have only advocated for Russian withdrawal and for the Ossetians and the Georgians to resolve this matter internally as it should have done from the beginning. Without Russian interference and supplying of criminal gangs and militias and other so-called separatists that continue to stage attacks against ethnic Georgians in the area and Georgian infrastructure in Georgia proper.

The U.S. has poked its nose in too many conflicts in the past, and this is one conflict that is not a concern to us, militarily. I have no problem with the U.S. acting as a peace-keeper and negotiating between both parties ... however the U.S. taking the side of Georgia, as is to be expected in the ideology of NeoConservatism, is clearly making matters more complicated. The U.S. does not need to become involved in every single Global conflict.

I do not disagree with you. The US should not involve itself militarily in this conflict. However, the US support for Georgia has nothing to do with ideology, but rather the fact that Georgia is a US ally. It is the responsibility of an ally to support another ally. Hence the word. Ally. See how that works?

I am still suspicious that given how badly Bush wanted this Missile Defense Shield and wasn't getting it, that he goaded Georgia into this conflict, knowing what the result would be ... which he used as justification for the shield.

There is more evidence that Russia and its proxies goaded Georgia into this conflict than that Bush would have had anything to do with it. Anything else is pure conspiracy theorist conjecture. The only one who wins from this is Russia.

If Poland and the Ukraine are beginning to rethink their initial reluctance to participate in Bush's scheme, it is only understandable, considering how they have both been the victims of Russian aggression and occupation and would prefer not to have to endure a testosterone crazed Putin on their doorstep any time soon. I do not blame them. Russia's actions clearly brought this on. They have to deal with the consequences.
 
Former U.S. Ambassador Richard Holbrooke is in Georgia and has been reporting

he is reporting that the on the ground situation in Georgia is dire - and that russian forces are rogue and causing more harm

he is certainly not on the "it's georgia's fault" thingy

and i believe he is a big supporter of Barack Obama

just saying
 
Actually the peacekeeping "mandate" as you refer to it was a Russian brokered deal to which Georgia agreed. The UN took no part in the discussions.

If our peacekeepers are "illegal", why UN didn't change them to "legal"?

Russian peacekeepers were perfidiously killed by Geogians. And then our Army had entered South Ossetia - Georgians ran away, leaving the weapons.

NATO must train Georgians more strenuously. Georgian troops haven't the Virile Spirit. Good soldier doesn't run away, leaving the weapons to the enemy. :-)

Ukraine...........
considering how they have both been the victims of Russian aggression

When Ukraine was the victim of Russian aggression? Tell me, please.

And about Russia supporting gangsters and separatists. The USA supported Albanian separatists, who killed people and stole their organs.
 
It is hard to see whether definitively the South Ossetians would qualify or not, as the international community (other than Russia) sees South Ossetia as a state within Georgia, and therefore South Ossetians as a minority group living within Georgia. Tbilisi does not recognise the de facto "government" in Tskhinvali, and regards them as mere "separatist leaders".

1. They've been de facto independent since 1992.
2. During that time, they successfully governed themselves.
3. Geogia has been doing just fine without them.

I think those three items alone should be sufficient to establish their claim to be a separate people.

The U.S. has poked its nose in too many conflicts in the past, and this is one conflict that is not a concern to us, militarily. I have no problem with the U.S. acting as a peace-keeper and negotiating between both parties ... however the U.S. taking the side of Georgia, as is to be expected in the ideology of NeoConservatism, is clearly making matters more complicated. The U.S. does not need to become involved in every single Global conflict.

"...in the ideology of neoconservatism"?
How about in the ideology of common sense? Russia here is what is know as "an aggressor", which has invaded another country without provocation. They did it because they could, not for any civilized reason whatsoever.
I'd agree that the U.S. should be staying silent, except for one thing: Europe is just sitting and basically handing Geogia over to Russia, so Putin can have his "historic borders" as he restores the Russia Empire.

Russian peacekeepers were perfidiously killed by Geogians. And then our Army had entered South Ossetia -

Georgia moved against what it considered separatist forces. Russian peacekeepers should have left at that point, since Georgia was asseerting its sovereignty over the area. If they got fired at, it was because they had abandoned the role of peace keepers and entered the fight as combatants. The only reason for them not to withdraw was to give the Russian army an excuse to invade Georgia -- which they have done.

NATO must train Georgians more strenuously. Georgian troops haven't the Virile Spirit. Good soldier doesn't run away, leaving the weapons to the enemy. :-)

I have yet to see a report about Georgian troops running away -- where are you getting this?
And do you seriously expect Tsar Putin to permit Georgia to join NATO? His intent is clearly top conquer it, resuming the role of aggressor Russia has held since the earliest tsars.

When Ukraine was the victim of Russian aggression? Tell me, please.

I could start in 1921, when Russia and Poland arbitrarily assigned chunks of Ukranian territory to themselves. Of course, prior to that the Russian Empire (or Principate of Muscovy, or what have you) conquered portions of the Ukraine.

And about Russia supporting gangsters and separatists. The USA supported Albanian separatists, who killed people and stole their organs.

But the U.S. didn't use those people as an excuse to invade and treat the population cruelly.
 
Of course, prior to that the Russian Empire conquered portions of the Ukraine.

There was no Ukraine and Ukrainian nation in 17 century. And of course there was no Russian nation in 17-18 centuries.

There were just villains (peasants) and feudal lords! One Polish vassal Bogdan Khmelnitsky changed his vassalage from Polish to Muskovitan.

All European countries were empires (like Austria) or colonies (like Czechia) before XX century. East-slavic peasants could be owned by Polish, Austrian or Russin lendlords.

So, I don't understand than modern people use modern categories, talking about the past.
 
Europe is just sitting
So, again: Why the United Nations didn't change Russian peace-keepers to European?

And do you seriously expect Tsar Putin to permit Georgia to join NATO?

No, I don't. He's trying to slow down this process. It's natural - because NATO is our political and economical competitor. "Nothing personal, just business". The USA play their game, Russia plays it's game, China plays it's game (always breaking the rules to win). By the way, I've never voted for Putin.
 
NATO must train Georgians more strenuously. Georgian troops haven't the Virile Spirit. Good soldier doesn't run away, leaving the weapons to the enemy. :-)

I have yet to see a report about Georgian troops running away -- where are you getting this?

Early in the conflict, NBC [US National] News reported that Georgia troops were fleeing and showed footage of abandoned vehicles, arms, and even personal rucksacks along a roadway. Beyond that, Russian military sources reported that Georgia troops also abandoned military depots full of weapons – and in doing so perhaps provided a basis for the Russian advance.
[Russia's deputy chief of General Staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly] Nogovitsyn said Russian troops went into Gori to establish contact with its civilian administration and to take control over military depots abandoned by the Georgian forces. "The abandoned weapons needed protection," he said. [Link]
 
The main problem in Georgia is unemployment. So, those soldiers just want to earn some money, they weren't prepared for real battle. Saakashvili knew that, but sent them in South Oseetia.
 
I'm From Tbilisi Georgia And You Don't Even Imagine The Things What Happen Now In My Country

Thw Russian Troops Still Are In Many Sities They Controll Highways Burn Woods, Rob The Houses Magizens Evrything They Want They Take They Robe Absolutely The Marine Base In Poty The Senaki Base The Gori Base Alll Mllitary Bases.

They Are With Osetian Separatists Who Help Them In This This Soldiers Are Here For More Then 10 Days They Don;t Have Food Nothing And All They Do Is Rob Everything There Are Death Cases In People They Were Raped And Killed Women. And Men Captivited.


Russian President Already Twice Sad That Russian Troops Will Be Withdranw Back And Today Was The Last Day But They Stay On Their Places And General Say That They Won't Go Anywhere Untill The Order Of Medvede.

And Russian Prime Minister Lies In The New Saying That Troops Are Withdrawn Goood You Don;t Even Iamgine What Happens Here And What Russia Says.


They Keep Ocuping Georgian Territory They Bomb Some Sities They Continue Bombing From Time To Time And They Bombed Railroad Bridge 2 Days Ago.


And They Say That They Are Here For Peace Actions Goood They Are So Cinic They Don;t Let Humanitar Things To Enter In Cities And The Jurnalists To Enter Too.


5 Jurnalists Already Killed 2 Georgians And 3 Foreigners.


All The World Knows Already What A Shit Is Russian Government And What It Wants To.


Russia Already Wanted To Attack Georgia And Did It In August Cause Then Here Would Be Snow And They Coudn't Get From Mountains So August Was Best Partof The Year.


I Have Arrived From Sauth Osetia 8 Days Ago. When I Was To Village Akhaldaba With My Troopmates. I Sabved But Most Died.



Russia Continues Occupaing Georgia Cause Is Agressor The War Is Here Not In Russia And All Kno Who Is Russia So Get Over It


But They Main Thing Is That The Lead Patriarch Of The Russia Told Them That They Would Pay Very Hard For The Things They Have Done To Some Countries And Some People

Especially Georgia Cause Doing This Sadistic Things That Do Russian Troops Here Now Is Not A Actions Of The Christian People To Chrsistian People

So Good Will Show Everybody What Will Happen Very Huge Gore Is Expecting Russia You'll See The Only Thing I Can Say Is This.
 
Where as I was critical at first of American coverage towards this, as Georgia did initiate the attack in South Ossetia, Russia responded in what one could argue was to a very disproportionate degree. As unfortunately the United States did, as well, in response to 9/11. It makes us look like all the more hyprocrites scolding other countries for this type of thing, when we have invaded other countries ourself, that were of no threat to us.

Russia, however, has more than proved their point. It is time for Russia to pull back and get out of Georgia.

Obviously, they will eventually. They just don't want it to look like they are being ordered to pull back. Russia wants to pull back slowly, and on their own terms, so they look like they are in charge of the situation.
 
Hugedickboy
If you have the facts about Ossetian partisans or Russian soldiers raping and killing people, you should go to HRW.

It may be the truth. I don't say that Ossetian partisans or Russian soldiers are angels. They may be very cruel. But your president Saakashvili told us so much unverified information - that I don't now what to think.

Saakashvili said that Russia bombed the oil pipeline Baku-Tbilsi. Then British Petroleum said that it wasn't true.
 
The Only Thiong That Will Save Georgia From Russian Aggression Is Entering Nato And Our People Faith That We Have A Lot.

I Don't Hate Russians 9people) I Have Many Russian Friend Here In Tbilisi In University. They All See What Happens Here.


The Only Bitvhes Are Politicans Putin Wants Ussr Back And Uses The Strupid Medvedev Like This So We'll See Who Get's Who Cause Russia Never Get's This



I Don't Like Saakshvili Neither Pur Government Butttttttttttttttttttt


What Russia Is Doing Untill Now Is Aggresssionnnnnnnnnnn


Our Forces Were Withdrown 6 Days Ago And Russian Must To Have Done This Tooo That Day But They Still Are Here And This Hungry Soldiers Do Veerything To Do What They Wanttt They Ruin Everything On Theit Ways Absoutely Everything.




The Mission Of Russia Is To Keep The Forces Here As Much As Can To Make Goetiga More More Material And Moral Damage As They Can Untill They Go And They Are Doing Thisss.
 
Baku Tbilisi Pipe Has Nothing Here The Main Thing Is Thattttttttttttttt The Abuse On Peopleeeeeeeee They Abuse On People Goooooooooodd


They Rape Women They Rob "marshutkas" (you Know What It Is) Buses They Control Highways They Have 18 Blogposts Stated On Higway From Igoeti To Gori And In Poti And Senaki


They Absolutely Destrid Port Of The Poti The Ships Everything The Military Marine Base Of The Poti They Take Everything And What They Can't Take They Burn.


They Bombed Twice Borjomi And Wagveri Woods They Are Still Burnind Turkish Plains Helop Us To Defeat Power Many Akres Of The Woods Already Burnt.


How Boy They Ahve Done So Much Awfull Things For This Days Good I'm Shocked. My Neighbours Aunt Killed In Her Hpuse Whle Robbing.
 
If Russia did bomb that pipe, then I can't disagree with the U.S. becoming involved as this Energy Crisis, as we've seen, is having such a huge impact on the Global Economy ... and we are most definitely feeling the effect of rising Gas Prices in the U.S. . The country is suffering at the moment due to the rising price of just about everything in this country. Fuel, Groceries, Eating Out, Consumer Goods, everything. Our Media is reporting that the Russians bombed within 10 feet of that pipe, however supposedly the pipe was not damaged.

As the prices are beginning to lower as the speculators get out of the Oils futures market, anything that risks sending that price right back up is simply going to result in military action.
 
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