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Sailor speaks out

Yes, of course...because he was so much better off in the military with being abused and exposed and vulnerable to a discharge for being gay? Gimme a break. :lol:


Well DADT was in effect when he joined the military and he was no more vulnerable to a discharge when he quit than when he signed up. And he was not being abused when he quit, he was in prep school realizing his dream.
 
26 and I had been out since my teens and knew what was going on regarding gay rights.
I also come from a family that have served.


You're 42?

Hmm.


"His openness about being hazed by his fellow sailors ended up getting him kicked out of the service under “don’t ask, don’t tell.”"


You seem to not understand what DADT is about.

Gay people can serve in the military but they have to keep their being gay a secret. That means "his openness" about that event is not allowed. So if he joins while DADT is in effect and knows the rule, and he's the one who reveals the event that outs him, his discharge under DADT is a result of his own doing.

The whole secret thing is what's terrible about DADT. I've posted many times here about the destructiveness of secrets. And if Obama were keeping his promises, DADT might be repealed by now or at least suspended while repeal worked its way through. But as it stands Congress hasn't even debated a bill about it, nor is such a debate scheduled. And Obama has been anything but a fierce advocate.
 
No, actually, I was 24. I am 40 now. I got the date wrong.


:rolleyes:



Yes, they can serve in the military IF they stay in the closet or don't engage in homosexual behavior or lead a straight life.
If they are suspected of being gay, they are tagged and followed and come under a micrsocope. I someone decides to out him or call him a fag, he would also be under a microscope and wonder why they aren't getting some pussy or married to a woman.


Uh huh.

Very good.

Looks like you're finally understanding DADT.

And that's some of the reasons it'd be really nice if Obama were keeping his promises.
 
Exactly. Because he was not one of them. He was gay. That's the whole reason that DADT needs to go and why he is a perfect example.
The minute they found out he was gay he had a target on his back and would have been discharged. If DADT wasn't in place he could just have reported the abuse without fear of being discharged just on his sexuality. The abuse and the harassment would not have meant a thing to these guys because his sexuality made these irrelevant. So in essence, being gay is worse than someone coming forward about being abused. By saying he was abused he would also have to say that he was gay. That makes him twice the victim.
He didn't have to come out because he was already suspected of being different.

this is why you should be more logical instead of emotion...these guys never knew his sexuality....he was called gay.....because he wouldnt partake in the panty raid stories or other boys tales....in the story...im dumbfounded...i understand the frustration with dadt....more than you do...but its not going to make me lump this story of blatant homphobia with dadt...please read the story again...id really like to see how you came to your conclusion...
 
No. I understood it all along.


Well if you understood it all along then you knew you were making it up when you wrote, "being gay gets you discharged."

Being gay does not get anybody discharged from the military.
 
The "you're not a gay man" argument is getting tired. Old. And sad.


I never said you're not a gay man.

I said I am.


You also keep throwing your age around like you've been around so much longer than anyone else and you know more because of it.


You lectured me about what DADT is, and I mentioned my age in the context of telling you I was around, a fully formed adult paying attention to unfolding events, when DADT was argued and negotiated and written and signed into law. I know what DADT is because I was there and paying attention. That doesn't necessarily mean I know more but it does mean I know first hand what was happening when DADT came into being and am very familiar with what it says.

And not that it's relevant in this instance but it is sometimes true that having been around longer, having been There when events unfolded, does mean that a person knows more than people who where not there. That's true when some of my older friends tell me about the Holocaust and it's true when I tell what I remember about Stonewall or being out the 70s or the first decade of AIDS and it will be true when you tell people younger than you about what you've witnessed or been part of. That's the way life is.


I am sorry that it is so hard to believe that a member of straight society can, is willing to, and will continue to, understand this community, fight alongside it, and not disregard certain laws and issues because "they don't affect me."


I don't know why you place "they don't affect me" in quotes. I certainly never said that to you or anybody else. Why so defensive? I didn't say anything at all about you. I said I'm a gay man and I was an adult in my 30s when DADT came about. I relayed information about me but you've interpreted it as something about you.


I have never once treated anyone here as an outsider in the world, I would appreciate the same sentiment when I am trying to fight beside this community for rights I feel you deserve, and injustices I feel are detrimental to this community. DADT is one of those injustices.


I never suggested you're an outsider here or anywhere.


There are a great many complications to DADT, but at its simplest core, it is about keeping quiet about who you are so you can serve this country. I don't know about you, but I find that unfair. So when we talk about being kicked out because of sexual orientation, we are bringing the law to its simplest form. Not complicating it with ifs, and, or ors.


As Democrats used to try to get Bush and Bush supporters to understand, nuance is important. Details are important.

There is a big difference between gays being barred from serving and gays having to keep it a secret. DADT is not good, should be repealed, but the truth is it IS an improvement over what existed before.


I am not concerned with the circumstances at this point, this soldier is a hero simply for the fact that he's talking. Most people just want to push the stories away and pretend things are not happening. He's not doing that. We need all the voices we can get to stop DADT.


My criteria for hero is higher than speaking out. But --though this may ruffle your feathers again-- my teens and 20s were a time when gays and others, in a much more precarious position than we are today, spoke out loudly for our rights. To me, that's what we're supposed to do, and heroic action is beyond that.

If you want this guy as your hero, have at it. I need something more to classify someone a hero.
 
this is why you should be more logical instead of emotion...these guys never knew his sexuality...


It's not just a question of emotion over logic.

It's reworking elements of what's reported to what will conform to the story line one wants. It happens so much these days that Stephen Colbert coined a word for it: truthiness, a belief that what one feels is true is just as true as what is factual.
 
My apologies for taking it personally, I found the fact that you mentioned being a gay man ironic, as I am fully aware of the audience here. There isn't a lot of diversity, between sexualities, here at JUB. So mentioning your own sexuality comes across as reminding me of mine. That's all.

What I am not understanding here is why you felt the need to come into this thread and tear into people who found this man's story inspirational. I'm sorry you saw worse things back in the day, I'm sorry you feel that today's gay youth has it easier, but being a young man in a world full of people who only want to hold him down, I feel a sense of spirit in him. That's heroic. Any act of defiance against what others say is not right, that's heroic.

Your standards may be higher for what a hero is, but why is it not possible for others to have standards different from yours? You are not educating people on anything here, you are trying to tell us we're wrong for 1) thinking DADT has anything to do with this and 2) finding this person heroic.

Nobody ever said others aren't heroic as well. A story was told, we found it inspiring, we posted. We're not holding this kid up on some high rank and saying he's a savior. Being heroic for speaking out, marching for rights and doing what you need to to survive is inspirational.

And anything involving gays in the military at this point is going to bring up DADT. It just is. Don't Ask, Don't Tell. Don't act gay, and I won't be able to ask you if you are. Every story like this is in affect, one more reason the law needs to be removed.


Stacy, if this is heroism to you then it's heroism to you.

It's not, to me.

We each have to determine that for ourselves. To me a hero is Martin Luther King, not Rocha. If Rocha's a hero then what is King? I think we need a word that distinquishes greatness from goodness, heroism from defiance.

As for this being about DADT, I agree with Archive, it's about stereotyping and homophobia, not DADT. According to Rocha, his tormenters didn't know he was gay, they went after him because he wouldn't join in their sex talk. According to Rocha he outed himself and resigned, he wasn't outed and there was no danger of him being discharged.


And I'm sorry my intent behind saying I'm gay was unclear. My fault. I should have realized how it might sound from your perspective. For me, as I'm sure for others, your presence and you contribution here is welcomed and appreciated; you're one of us, not separate.
 
And many of these people/groups you mentioned have a hatred/dislike of gays. I'm 46 years old and frankly, I'm sick of "playing nice" with these people. Where is THEIR respect and toleranace for ME? I'm no longer the "wall flower" and will call them out on their bullshit.

First let's get it straight that there are individuals, not groups, that have a hatred. My point is that hatred works both ways. Certainly there are a lot of individuals in those groups that I mentioned that have a hatred towards gays. There are many gays that have a hatred towards those groups, and not just the individuals. Case in point would be you.
 
Yes, he was called gay. Now all they had to do was hear that and launch an investigation. Wether they did or not is not the issue. The possiblity remained and it was and is very real. I think he knew that by speaking about the abuse that they would look into his personal life more and see that he was in fact gay. Then what happens after that? DADT and a discharge. If there was no fear of the DADT policy, he would have just reported the abuse and then go on to another base and fuck girls to prove that he was not gay. But being gay instilled the fear that he would get fired even when he was hazed, harassed, abused and called a fucking faggot.

first i will say...what happened to this petty officer is blatantly wrong...i do agree with that...but this speculation of him being discharged under DADT without his willful decree of homosexuality......youre not selling me on it


now with this recent post.......you lost me here...where do you get your information....he was called gay so now an investigation forms (paraphrase)....i hope your military buddies arent feeding you this crap.....because its just that ....crap.....i think you need to read up on dadt....i dont know how i can get you to realize that the military (no matter what service) cant just start an investigation because someone else (besides yourself) calls you gay....it doesnt work that way....

put it this way....if someone went to my wing commander tomorrow and told him that i was gay...with no written, audio, video, or whatever kind of proof there is...there is nothing he can do...nothing...


the policy is called Dont Ask, Dont tell....people seem to always forget about the dont ask part
 
It's not just a question of emotion over logic.

It's reworking elements of what's reported to what will conform to the story line one wants. It happens so much these days that Stephen Colbert coined a word for it: truthiness, a belief that what one feels is true is just as true as what is factual.


hmmmm...i like that...lol
 
Because if this man would have been able to go to his superior and explain that he was being hazed, bashed and terrorized he would not have had to make this move. Instead, for fear of being discharged (which, is worse than leaving under your own volition, in my opinion) he kept quiet, until he had enough, and he came out and resigned on his own. Because there is a law in place that says to soldiers "don't talk about your sexuality or we cannot protect you here."

the first question is:do you know what the military chain of command is ?

2nd question: do you know he could have reported the abuse and not have stated his sexuality?
 
"The act prohibits any homosexual or bisexual person from disclosing his or her sexual orientation or from speaking about any homosexual relationships, including marriages or other familial attributes, while serving in the United States armed forces. The "don't ask" part of the policy indicates that superiors should not initiate investigation of a service member's orientation in the absence of disallowed behaviors, though mere suspicion of homosexual behavior can cause an investigation."
:rotflmao:

youre going to quote something from wikipedia...and then ignore the rest of my post....wow....you are looney...you see..... i have the ucmj in my room...i think that trumps u buddy
 
If you are celibate, not show anyone you have any gay tendencies, are good at deceiving and lying, love talking about pussy, have sex with women to prove you are straight, act like a homophobe and harass other "gays"...you could get away with it. Sure. Once there is the slightest doubt, you are fucked. It will follow you until you marry a woman...even then there are no guarantess...lol


You are wrong and do not understand DADT.

There are gays in the military who have a boyfriend and are sexual, and sometimes it's an open secret nobody talks about but some know.

It's not true that "once there is the slightest doubt, you are fucked." Discharge under DADT requires more than the slightest doubt.

Nobody here is defending DADT, we all think it should be repealed. But you're misrepresenting what it is.
 
It depends solely on the CO your working under.

Some CO's do not care if your gay and are silently open about it. Hey, they might even be cordial with your "boyfriend" and still let you serve. The rest of the unit is fine blah blah.

Then there are those CO's that if there is a hint, there will probably be a silent investigation to see if you are gay, and then pow, you get the letter.

All they need is one shred of evidence. Hell, it could be a person, to kick you out under DADT.

But don't quote me. This is my statement, and I have no intention to debate it.
 
I love the rose colored world you are living in.

Who in the hell is going to be able to go to a commanding officer and explain they are being bashed and say "but I'm not gay though, I swear."

That is the most hilarious statement I've read today. No wait, the second, maybe third. First was that DADT has nothing to do with this, 2nd was Nick pretending he wasn't throwing my sexuality in my face and now this.

God I love a good laugh.

In this story the commanding officer knew about the abuse within the ranks and still did nothing. Therefore going to him and reporting the abuse is in fact admitting your own sexuality. I'm sorry but even the most open minded man isn't going to their commanding officer and complaining of gay bashing unless they are in fact, ready to face the allegations of being gay.

god...i hate stupidity...i asked you do you know what a chain of command is because as an enlistee....technically your co is your first line of defense...but he is not your only boss......talking to you people is like like talking to a two year old.....there are so many paths he could of taken its ridiculous...but hence you would know this if you knew what a chain of command was....thanks for playing
 
A secret that would nonetheless get them discharged. If someone decides they don't like you anymore then all they need to do is report your ass to a superior. You get reported, brought in for questioning, and bam! you're out faggot. LOL
:kiss::=D::=D::=D:
 
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