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sen. 'im not gay' w/matt lauer

  • Thread starter Thread starter 1st love ron
  • Start date Start date
Um, hate to be the one to tell you this, but most places in the western world are not that aggresive in law enforcement. Perhaps you should move to somewhere away from your home town?

Actually, according to a study by the University of Chicago Law School some time back, unless you're in the upper-middle class and above in the U.S. of A., most of the country's law enforcement is exactly like that. They don't call it that any more, but they have arrest quotas, they get points for every arrest made, so they go looking for people to arrest. As the study put it, today's law-enforcement entities aren't about catching criminals so much as making criminals.

The problem lies in that denotation itself: "law enforcement" makes people servants of the law, rather than law being a servant of the people. If the law is about public safety, then so long as everyone is safe, there's no crime -- so if Joe Stoner is buzzed on alcohol and herb and driving 95 on a straight, dry highway, with no traffic closer than a quarter mile, there isn't, given the purpose of the law, a crime. Or if Bob Sixpack is passed out from Jack Daniels under a picnic table in the park, snoring peacefully, there's no crime.
That we consider things to be crimes when no one is getting hurt reveals what our thinking about law is -- that it's for controlling people, treating them like sheep or slaves or children. And inevitably that is a sickness that leads to totalitarianism, as people are discouraged from being mature and responsible, so they need shepherds and nannies and masters.

I've thought of moving; my target of choice was Costa Rica -- but I've had a traffic ticket, and that's enough to deny permanent residency, according to their on-line information.
 
Kulindahr,

Serving society, means just that. Serving the common good, so that all benefit from our service.

It would be your spin to suggest that we automatically condemn our selves to slavery, as a result of assisting one another. It is my opinion that a free society can only be so, when that freedom is exercised in the service of others. In such a society we all benefit from the investment that people make, when serving the common good.
 
"Victim mentality"?!

When it's virtually impossible to go out and enjoy yourself without having to do it in some officially-approved locale in an officially approved manner, no "victim mentality" is needed -- the cops are just waiting to pounce on people who inevitably break one of those laws or regulations... or even who don't.

Maybe you live in some paradise where all the law enforcement folks are saints, but in just about every place within ninety minutes' drive of where I live, any time a cop is behind on [strike]quota[/strike] arrest credits, he just goes cruising recreation areas and picks people up for laws they never knew existed. They hand out warnings for "excavation without a permit" for merely digging a hole on the beach to watch it fill with water, for "diverting public water resources without a permit" for putting a line of rocks across a stream; they arrest people for "assault" when there has been no physical contact, only waving arms -- and they'll write up one charge of the same for each arm wave, so that getting into a yelling match with someone can get you hauled off to jail for a half=dozen counts of assault. And as I said before, if they stop you and you don't kneel down and kiss their asses, they'll cuff you, then make up a crime to charge you with, invent probable cause, and write a report describing things that never happened... and when you truthfully deny doing it, the D.A. points out that of course a criminal is going to deny doing it, so obviously you're guilty.


If you're going around waving your arms in people's faces, getting into yelling matches with them in public, it doesn't surprise me that you're cited for disturbing the peace.

Your rights end where other people's rights begin.


But even that foundation is wrong: the only legitimate function of law is to protect an individual's rights. Telling me I can't drink in a county park doesn't protect anyone's rights, rather it infringes on mine; telling people they can't enjoy the mental stimulant or mood-altering substance of their choice doesn't protect anyone's rights, either, it only treads on them.

Waving your arms in people's faces and yelling in public is precisely the reason drinking in public isn't allowed. Some people can't handle their alcohol or control their own behavior, and citizen safety and comfort is being protected.


Mature people don't need all these laws -- they behave with courtesy and respect. But when you saddle people with such laws, they give up being mature, and act like the delinquents they're being treated as.

You think laws make people act like delinquents.

I believe it's something else.
 
Dude, I don't exist for "society", I exist for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". I have no obligation to "society" -- rather, society has an obligation to me, namely, to keep its bloody hands off unless I'm hurting someone.


No, society does not have an obligation to you.

We each have an obligation to behave responsibly as members of society.
 
If you can't tell how snide and arrogant you sound...

No one is talking about devaluing neighbors' property, being drunk, posing a danger, etc.
I'm talking about freedom, the right to be different, the right of private property to be PRIVATE property....

You're talking like a snob who really doesn't approve of people enjoying themselves in ways you don't approve of.

Do you know what a cry-baby you sound like? Oh, my. . . you can't get drunk on public property (endangering everyone else on this public property)! You can't build a huge privacy fence around your entire property (devaluing your neighbor's property in the process)!

Property -- things I can't do (just some):
*build a fence along the edge without a "variance"
*plant anything with thorns within ten feet of the edge (like, roses)
*let my grass grow a foot high
*tear down & rebuild the garage
*build a solid-barrier fence against the neighbor's intruding hedge
*store my trailer
*put in a fire pit
*extend the basement beyond the existing foundation
*work on my truck in the front yard
*build a tower for an observatory

Enjoyment -- as before:
*hold a dance on my lawn
*drink alcohol outside my house in view of the street
*drink alcohol in any park or recreation area
*smoke downtown on the street (not that I want to, but it's forbidden)
*smoke my substance of preference
*be naked in my own house, if someone breaks in (if a minor breaks in and finds me in the shower, I get labeled a "sex offender" and have to register for life)
*clean up trash in a wilderness area
*drive on roads on public lands (many are off-limits to the public)
*do repair work on a public trail, to make it safer

And, technically, these are against the law as well:
*skipping rocks
*building sandcastles
*hiking off an approved trail in any state or federal forest

You "right to be different" amounts to your "right to be offensive to whomever the fuck you choose." You stretch "decency laws" to the breaking point with your assertion about "(if a minor breaks. . .)" And, with those last three, you're just being ludicrous. Stop whining!

Damn! I'm starting to feel like this forum is full of third graders!
 
The problem lies in that denotation itself: "law enforcement" makes people servants of the law, rather than law being a servant of the people. If the law is about public safety, then so long as everyone is safe, there's no crime -- so if Joe Stoner is buzzed on alcohol and herb and driving 95 on a straight, dry highway, with no traffic closer than a quarter mile, there isn't, given the purpose of the law, a crime. Or if Bob Sixpack is passed out from Jack Daniels under a picnic table in the park, snoring peacefully, there's no crime.

It's fascinating you're so obsessed about courtesy versus rudeness in our words expressing our opinion that you wanted to split CE&P into separate places, one for those you consider civil and another for those you consider rude; and yet you seem to think we all should have to tolerate picnicing next to drunks waving their arms in our faces and yelling or snoring "peacefully" under tables. And no doubt you support those drunks packing hidden firearms.


I've thought of moving; my target of choice was Costa Rica -- but I've had a traffic ticket, and that's enough to deny permanent residency, according to their on-line information.

If Costa Rica is so strict about laws, that a traffic ticket gets you banned from permanent residency, why does CR appeal to you?
 
IC07

Your point is valid and helps us appreciate that serving the common good is instrumental in guaranteeing the rights of each and every human person to expect assistance, as a result of participating in the community effort to share the burdens of a humanitarian society.
 
The problem lies in that denotation itself: "law enforcement" makes people servants of the law, rather than law being a servant of the people. If the law is about public safety, then so long as everyone is safe, there's no crime -- so if Joe Stoner is buzzed on alcohol and herb and driving 95 on a straight, dry highway, with no traffic closer than a quarter mile, there isn't, given the purpose of the law, a crime. Or if Bob Sixpack is passed out from Jack Daniels under a picnic table in the park, snoring peacefully, there's no crime.
That we consider things to be crimes when no one is getting hurt reveals what our thinking about law is -- that it's for controlling people, treating them like sheep or slaves or children. And inevitably that is a sickness that leads to totalitarianism, as people are discouraged from being mature and responsible, so they need shepherds and nannies and masters.

This premise is absurd. How can you guarantee that Joe Stoner's highway will be straight and dry, with no other vehicles for a quarter mile? How can you be sure that Bob Sixpack's bourbon-fuelled nap won't disrupt a family planning to use the picnic table for something like... say, a picnic?

The truth is, you can't. Enforcing law after the fact is too late, especially for the victim.

Sure there have been a few absurd laws here and there over time, but the vast majority of laws are clearly and logically targetted at the protection of the majority of the community.
 
If you're going around waving your arms in people's faces, getting into yelling matches with them in public, it doesn't surprise me that you're cited for disturbing the peace.

Read closer, please!
There wasn't any waving of arms "in people's faces", and the charge wasn't "disturbing the peace" -- the people involved were almost ten feet apart, and the cops charged them both with multiple counts of assault. And that's common.

Your rights end where other people's rights begin.

Waving your arms in people's faces and yelling in public is precisely the reason drinking in public isn't allowed. Some people can't handle their alcohol or control their own behavior, and citizen safety and comfort is being protected.

But you're indulging in the typical neo-liberal penchant for ending people's rights long before other peoples' begin, of punishing the responsible and mature for the potential actions of the irresponsible and immature.
It isn't "citizen safety and comfort" that's being protected by such laws, it's the prejudiced sensibilities of the descendants of Puritans -- people who are so afraid they might be offended by one of the few who might fail to control behavior that they can't handle letting the vast majority enjoy a simple freedom.

You think laws make people act like delinquents.

I believe it's something else.

I say you're out of touch.
If I had five bucks for every person I've heard express disrespect for all law because there are so many, so pervasive, even to saying "I'll do what I want, and fuck the law; they'll arrest me if they want whether I do something wrong or not" -- and I'm not talking just rednecks, but college students and professionals. But again, read more closely -- it isn't laws per se, it's the profusion of laws that become so invasive and ubiquitous that it becomes difficult to not violate one or more -- and the fact that they can pass a law, not tell anyone, and suddenly arrest people right and left... people who will have no defense, because thanks to a clumsy jurist who couldn't get his Latin right, "ignorance of the law is no excuse".
 
A
The problem lies in that denotation itself: "law enforcement" makes people servants of the law, rather than law being a servant of the people. If the law is about public safety, then so long as everyone is safe, there's no crime -- so if Joe Stoner is buzzed on alcohol and herb and driving 95 on a straight, dry highway, with no traffic closer than a quarter mile, there isn't, given the purpose of the law, a crime. Or if Bob Sixpack is passed out from Jack Daniels under a picnic table in the park, snoring peacefully, there's no crime.
That we consider things to be crimes when no one is getting hurt reveals what our thinking about law is -- that it's for controlling people, treating them like sheep or slaves or children. And inevitably that is a sickness that leads to totalitarianism, as people are discouraged from being mature and responsible, so they need shepherds and nannies and masters.

This premise is absurd. How can you guarantee that Joe Stoner's highway will be straight and dry, with no other vehicles for a quarter mile? How can you be sure that Bob Sixpack's bourbon-fuelled nap won't disrupt a family planning to use the picnic table for something like... say, a picnic?

The truth is, you can't. Enforcing law after the fact is too late, especially for the victim.

Sure there have been a few absurd laws here and there over time, but the vast majority of laws are clearly and logically targetted at the protection of the majority of the community.

The premise is not absurd.
The only proper reason for a law is to protect the rights of the individual. If the rights of an individual have not been bothered, there can be no crime. What you're arguing for is treading on the rights of the individual just on the off chance that his behavior might potentially infringe on the rights of others.
By that premise, not only should we have laws against drinking and driving, but against driving with your shoes untied, or even driving with passengers -- after all, untied shoe laces might get tangled on the pedals and make the vehicle hard to control in a crisis, and passengers might be distracting to the driver. We ought, then, also have laws forbidding the sale of five-gallon buckets, since infants might drown in one (it happens), and of bathtubs, since individuals might slip and hit their heads and become paraplegics (also happens), and furthermore we ought to ban electric fences, because someone not knowing what one is might grab a wire and, unable to release it, die of a heart attack (it happens).
You argue that "Enforcing law after the fact is too late, especially for the victim", and in context thus assert that any time there might be a victim, the behavior should be against the law -- that's the logical foundation for your argument. And of course today's neoliberals do just that, advocating laws against anything that might hurt not just someone else, but one's self. The irony is that "liberal" used to mean totally defending individual freedom, but now it means curtailing individual freedom on the off chance that someone else's freedom might possibly be touched on in some potential state of affairs.

But you're inconsistent: what you should have argued for, in the case of drinking in the park, is a law against sleeping under picnic tables, since using one for a picnic is, in your argument, paramount. In fact, the law should forbid using one for anything but a picnic -- not for reading at, not for leaning a bicycle against, but only for picnics. Further, you're ignoring the reality of a situation in order to cling to your anti-freedom view -- bourbon Bob's nap isn't "disrupting" anything; he's sleeping peacefully -- or do you want to ban naps on public property, on the chance that someone else might want to use that property in a different way?
The trouble is that you don't want the public to use public property except for "respectable" reasons, and that's the foundation of a worse tyranny than anything the Founding Fathers rebelled against, because it sidesteps the question of what is respectable. Yours is the same argument that the Fred Phelps of the world use: if it doesn't seem "proper", it should be outlawed; it's the de facto foundation of anti-sodomy laws and their companions forbidding any sexual activity between persons of the same sex; namely, that such things are "disgusting" (however much people may appeal to the Bible or something, the only argument against oral sex between two men is that their sensibilities are offended).

Your final statement is quite revealing, as it shows a view that human rights should be subject to the wishes of the majority, any time something might possibly hold out the chance that someone could conceivably be harmed. That's the very tyranny Thomas Jefferson feared -- the tyranny of the majority, the tyranny of the mob.
 
Kulindahr,

Serving society, means just that. Serving the common good, so that all benefit from our service.

It would be your spin to suggest that we automatically condemn our selves to slavery, as a result of assisting one another. It is my opinion that a free society can only be so, when that freedom is exercised in the service of others. In such a society we all benefit from the investment that people make, when serving the common good.

There are only two options: either people are free (they own themselves), or they aren't.
You're saying that they don't.

This is the communist error, to believe that the common good is served by requiring everyone to work for it; the fact is that the common good is best served when every person is free to serve his or her own personal interest -- that's what drives creativity, innovation, invention, and the generation of wealth.
The objectivists are right on this point: no one is motivated by "serving the common good"; they're only motivated by their own benefit. That benefit may be emotional, as with those who volunteer for Habitat for Humanity: they derive personal pleasure from seeing low-income families get housing under circumstances they can afford. It's true of my volunteer safety and conservation project: I derive pleasure and satisfaction from seeing a coastal slope being made safer for others to use, but even more I derive pleasure from seeing the environment recover and the coastal krumholtz revive and flourish.
Adam Smith and many others observed that the investment others benefit from most is the investment a person makes for his own personal reward -- because that is a stronger motivating factor than anything else. The portion of everyday (and not-so-everyday) items benefiting us all which were made serving personal profit is most likely "99.99 fine" (to borrow a phrase). That common good arises not from an insistence on serving the common good, but on the emphasis on personal freedom for pursuing personal happiness -- which, recall, is a foundational principle of this country.

How we got from that truth to believing that we each have some sort of inherent obligation to everyone else, is beyond me. But you hold the latter so deeply I have to wonder if you believe that Henry David Thoreau was evil, and Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and John Adams sorely misguided.
 
It's fascinating you're so obsessed about courtesy versus rudeness in our words expressing our opinion that you wanted to split CE&P into separate places, one for those you consider civil and another for those you consider rude; and yet you seem to think we all should have to tolerate picnicing next to drunks waving their arms in our faces and yelling or snoring "peacefully" under tables. And no doubt you support those drunks packing hidden firearms.

If Costa Rica is so strict about laws, that a traffic ticket gets you banned from permanent residency, why does CR appeal to you?

This post would, for a certain 'general' of JUB renown, come under "lying liars and their lies". You seemingly can't help making things up to advance your views.

So I'll not dignify the lies by responding to them; I will, however, respond to one item -- drunks and guns.
Those drunks have the right to be packing "hidden" firearms. They do not have the right, any more than anyone else, to misuse firearms. But they show their foolishness if they do not, once a second drink comes into the picture for anyone in their group, immediately not only put away said firearms apart form ammunition, but preferably disable those firearms in a way they can't undo unless sober.
Herein is one item showing that the NRA is the world's foremost firearms safety organization: no NRA instructor will permit even a single open weak beer on the premises if firearms are to be handled, nor permit anyone under the influence to participate in a firearms class regardless of whether firearms are to be handled or used. This is true also of the Pink Pistols I shoot with, BTW -- someone opens a beer, and the shooting is over for the day, period.
See, the point is to support responsible behavior -- and until your hypothetical drunks do something plainly irresponsible, their behavior is their own business.

Oh -- Costa Rica: it's arguably the freest country in the world, but got crossed off my list when I found out about their immigration rules. I'm beginning to doubt there's really a free country left in the world.
 
Kulindahr

Personal freedom is never compromised, when serving the common good.

The returns for our hard work are never imperilled, when sharing our burden of support for our community.

In ensuring the good health of our community we are also ensuring the health of the investment that we make in our community, in order to create sufficient wealth to guarantee our freedom from want should we ever be in need.

The freedom of the individual human person is never on trial when sharing a little time and energy, for the purpose of serving the common good. Our investment in our community will always be on tap when ever we are faced with the prospect of needing support from our community, for whatever reason.

Our investment in serving the common interest of our community ensures that our return on the investments that we make in our life, are more than mere financial rewards.

Marx and Engels were not the first people to preach the gospel of sharing the common wealth, for the benefit of all. The Nazarene invited all to recognise that material returns on our investment in life are insufficient to guarantee all the benefits that can accrue from living a life that sacrifices a little of our gain, in order to mitigate the lack in others.

The naive believe that they will never be in lack, of anything.
 
Kulindahr
Personal freedom is never compromised, when serving the common good.

That's only true if the individual gets to make a totally independent decision about (1) what is the "common good" and (2) what should be done about that and (3) whether or not to act on the preceding.
Otherwise, you have an open invitation to totalitarianism.

In the Soviet Union, adherence to the official truths was decreed to be for "the common good". In revolutionary France, the actions of the Committee for Public Safety were all taken "for the common good". Censorship is always held forth on the basis on being necessary "for the common good". GW Bush wants to freely spy on all Americans "for the common good". Fred Phelps wants to eliminate gays from the race "for the common good". Indira Ghandi had entire villages sterilized without informing them, "for the common good". Japanese-Americans were deprived of liberty and property "for the common good". Prohibition was "for the common good".

Zoning is "for the common good", but it leads to class segregation and increased pollution.
The "War on Drugs" is "for the common good", but it is the cause of better than four fifths of all violent crime.
Police not being required to protect particular individuals but only the aggregate is "for the common good".


But every last one of those things not only interferes with individual liberty, they are also all harmful to individuals -- which means that "for the common good" it is acceptable to deprive of liberty, of the pursuit of happiness, even of life itself.
Such a position is evil, and so cannot possibly be "for the common good".
 
...the law against alcohol in a public park doesn't respect individual rights; it doesn't even respect individuals; what it does is say that rather than allow and encourage people to behave like adults and confront others who are behaving inappropriately, we'll just not allow even the possibility. That's treating people like children -- so is it any wonder we have so many people who resent law altogether?
Are there laws that inappropriately limit our freedoms? Sure. But what happens if you eliminate any such regulation entirely?

Think about all the fine, gentle and scholarly folk you may encounter in a public park (thats sarcasm). Shall we leave it to these fine folk to determine what behavior is in public and confront anyone who offends that sensibility? The word you chose is absolutely appropriate to this scenario ... confront. The outcome of your equation is confrontation, and the biggest, roughest, toughest guy is the typical winner in that equation.

I'd prefer to walk through the park minus the threat that my reasonable actions might offend the distorted sensibilities of some thug and prompt a confrontation.
 
Kulindahr,

Liberty is the very right of each and every human person.

I see no reason why in a country such as the United States you should fear your right to live in freedom, being compromised when choosing to volunteer to serve the common good.

No one is being dragooned in to performing tasks that do not meet with your enthusiastic approval.

Let us not create a bogeyman, where none exists.
 
Are there laws that inappropriately limit our freedoms? Sure. But what happens if you eliminate any such regulation entirely?

Think about all the fine, gentle and scholarly folk you may encounter in a public park (thats sarcasm). Shall we leave it to these fine folk to determine what behavior is in public and confront anyone who offends that sensibility? The word you chose is absolutely appropriate to this scenario ... confront. The outcome of your equation is confrontation, and the biggest, roughest, toughest guy is the typical winner in that equation.

I'd prefer to walk through the park minus the threat that my reasonable actions might offend the distorted sensibilities of some thug and prompt a confrontation.

You're using confrontation in a very negative sense, as a synonym for aggression.
I mean it as "stop being a spineless coward and stand up for yourself".

I don't see the sarcasm: most of the people I meet in parks, other than their government-trained tendency to be cowards, are calm and polite, and the disorderly types are dissuaded from being actually disruptive by someone confronting them with that information and requesting they tone it down.
This worked just fine at swimming holes I used to go to when in college -- swimming holes frequented by people into heavy alcohol consumption, drug use, sex off in the bushes, mooning passing cars, smoking, jumping mountain bikes into the river.... but everyone understood that each is responsible for himself, and should stand up for himself, and stand up on behalf of children and other vulnerable types.
Never once was there trouble... except when a cowardly type called the sheriff over a silly insignificant thing which "offended" him, like a little boy running to his momma. Relying on the "authorities" caused a swell of discontent that changed the entire atmosphere into one of suspicion and antagonism rather than mutual respect and responsibility.
Someone once even showed up with a rifle and set up for shooting floating targets -- but he never did, because all the adults and most of the teens just went and stood around him, and a chick told the guy, "Not here -- find a place without people". Confronted by all those folks staring at him silently, he packed and left.
That's confrontation, and it's mature civilized behavior. Calling the authorities is a regression to the dependency of early childhood, a declaration of victimhood: "I can't stand up for myself, someone help me!"

And though it's left me trembling sometimes, it's served well so far at swimming holes where someone disses me for my rainbow choker as a "fag tag": when the people are willing to back someone's self-respect, the unruly generally back down.

Perhaps its most effective testimonial is how Ghandi confronted the British in India -- until they backed down. He didn't cower, he didn't call for help, he didn't use violence -- he just faced them down and refused to be cowed.

Confrontation is an expression of your dignity as a human. If you can't stand up for yourself and confront others with their offensiveness, you must not think too highly of yourself.
 
Kulindahr,

Liberty is the very right of each and every human person.

I see no reason why in a country such as the United States you should fear your right to live in freedom, being compromised when choosing to volunteer to serve the common good.

No one is being dragooned in to performing tasks that do not meet with your enthusiastic approval.

Let us not create a bogeyman, where none exists.

I'm being dragooned into paying for, under threat of guns, all sorts of things I deeply disapprove of: a massive federal bureaucracy, the barring of public use of public lands, government programs that generate crime, police programs that operate with little regard for the law, penalties for increasing safety, regulations which make it impossible to help others unless you have attorneys and lots of funding, citations and court proceedings for exercising my freedom of expression.
Remember: all those things I cited before are actual examples of things that have happened, and not just once but repeatedly. The laws are there, they enable persecution of people for the most innocent of actions, and they will be used.

As for not having to live in fear for living in freedom, can you say "USA PATRIOT Act"?
 
if Joe Stoner is buzzed on alcohol and herb and driving 95 on a straight, dry highway, with no traffic closer than a quarter mile, there isn't, given the purpose of the law, a crime.

I disagree, DUI laws are a VERY important way of protecting the public. There should be ZERO tolerance for driving (especially) drunk, under any circumstances short of the driver's life being threatened. [EXAMPLE: he has to get to the ER *now* and cannot wait for the ambulance, or he is drunk but he is required to flee a natural disaster.] As I've said before to a number of people: "Drunk driving is, by far, the most dangerous thing that people commonly do."

I would feel so threatened that I would probably be afraid to travel much of ANYWHERE if there were no penalties whatsoever for DUI. Those laws are a deterrent. I feel that the highway death toll in the U.S. would be at least 150,000 per year rather than the current 40something thousand, if it was considered absolutely OK to drive drunk (which I think causes more problems than ALL other drugs, illegal ones as well as side effects from pharmaceuticals, put together).

The guy may be driving a stretch of [U. S.?] 95 in clear weather with no traffic within 1/4 mile, but that can change almost instantly as the semi, which is 0.26 or 0.27 miles ahead of him, approaches from the other direction and there's a collision a mere 9 seconds later. DUI laws have to consider that there can ALWAYS be nearby traffic, even if the road is "clear" at one specified moment.

DUI should include other mind-altering drugs as well (heroin, meth/speed, opium, LSD, ecstasy, etc.), but I DO NOT think that marijuana/THC should be included on the list, because
(1) people using pot usually compensate for their DUI by driving much more carefully, and
(2) because THC is stored in the *FAT* tissues, it can turn up a "positive" as long as a MONTH after use, and therefore a positive doesn't prove that the person is intoxicated.

I feel there should be no penalties of any kind for private usage of "substances of choice" - is it really wise to regulate stupidity within somebody's home? DUI laws cover the usage of such substances when coupled with driving, and quite rightly so (but again I don't think pot should be included). Those should be the only penalties for using recreational drugs, though if caught there should perhaps be some requirement of three or five hours (in the evening or daytime, to allow for work schedules) of education which objectively and truthfully talks about the bad effects of these drugs. I mean truthfully covering the bad mind effects AND possible health effects, not the propAGENDA'ist bullshit which the ONDCP continues to feed us.
 
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