Shooting at Colorado high school

[Kulindahr]

I do not honestly understand all or part of a youth's realization that killing is okay because it solves their immediate problems and it seems those students who do go over the edge also commit suicide. If anyone can figure out how to prevent suicidal behavior you need to share with all of us. I've had too many (one is too many) friends kill thenmselves as a way out.

1. Teach society to stop stigmatizing the mentally ill. The late 70s thing of hearing a friend was going to a therapist and saying, "How wonderful!" may be a bit far, but it would be better than treating people like they're old-style lepers (the 'evangelicals' have a lot to answer for here).

2. Take ten billion a year from the Pentagon and use it to fund a comprehensive mental health system focused on those ages 13-23. In that age range, the brain itself is literally unstable as it is undergoing rewiring, and if the brain is unstable the mind is at risk.

3. Authorize, even require, all public institutions which come to the realization that in terms of mental health someone is a danger to self and/or others to report this to their local mental health people, who would then put a "hold" on any purchase of a firearm or ammunition. This would not be a "no sale" in the NICS, but would trigger a requirement for examination to demonstrate stability. Take some more bucks from the Pentagon to pay for this.

4. Develop some sort of peer support network for youth. I was doing some research on large and extended families recently, and there seems to be reason to believe that in times when there were lots of people in or near the home to turn to, youth suicides were fewer. We've atomized society to the point that kids especially feel that there's no one to call on who will really help. Everyone should feel free to do what I did once in college: went to a friend's place and told him I was on the verge of ending it all and I wasn't leaving till I felt safe again. That should never, ever result in rejection, and in fact kids especially should be praised for having the strength to demand help that way.

5. Get through people's heads that platitudes do more harm than good. If someone says they feel like killing themselves, the proper response is to listen, and not leave that person until he/she feels safe. We called this "ministry of presence" in one place I helped out, but that's just an overly-fancy way of saying that not being alone is healing and strengthening!

 

[Callum]

Oh my…America's favourite pastime strikes again!

 

[Kulindahr]

Mark, I put it that your model is all wrong.

Crazies and killers aren't a bunch of cockroaches trying the windows and doors, trying to figure out how to get at their targets. They're crazies and killers.

We aren't seeing shootings increase because they have easier access to guns -- there has ALWAYS been easy access to all sorts of guns in this country. We're seeing an increase because there are more demented and violent people.

The guns don't make them that way. They ARE that way.

Think of how many million guns there are in the U.S. Violent gun crime is not present in direct proportion to the numbers of guns present. For this to be a valid assumption, one would have to track the numbers of school shootings, mass shootings, etc., from their inception, and then compare to the total number of guns in the public's hands. One will not find a proportional increase.

One cannot even dump it all on the Reagan era abandonment of the mentally ill. Many of these attacks have happened with young men who were not repeat violent offenders. That is to say, they would not have been in an institution at their age anyway, not most of them.

Superbly said!

In the past when firearms could be ordered through the mail and there were no background checks, mass shootings were actually less frequent -- so absolutely it isn't availability.

One thing that struck me in watching a movie called The Mechanic last week was that we never, ever in the media show the absolute angst of those who shoot someone else -- it's almost invariably portrayed as nothing earth-shaking. But I can testify for myself and a number of friends that even reaching for a firearm in a situation where there's no other way to prevent harm can and likely will shake any normal person to his roots and beneath. That needs to be shown -- indeed, the NRA could do us all a great service by adding that aspect to all the Armed Citizen reports: how did using a firearm to stop a threat affect them?

As for the Reagan abandonment of the mentally ill, the indirect result is that no kid is going to ask for mental help when society's picture of those with mental health issues is one of "total loser". We adroitly hide the fact that our mental hospitals deal with a high volume of people from upper economic classes, people such things aren't supposed to bother, and leave everyone thinking that anyone with any mental illness is incompetent, slow, dirty, and probably a criminal, definitely someone to be shunned.

 

[Kulindahr]

$hit, really he killed because of the debate team.

To be good at debate requires an adversarial attitude to begin with -- or will instill it rather promptly.

To be kicked off the team communicates that one is a failure, indeed incapable of winning -- because winners do well and get trophies.

So kicking a kid off the debate team means telling someone with an adversarial streak that he's a loser.

That doesn't sit well with teens. We shouldn't be surprised if one reacts in an adversarial fashion.

 

[Kulindahr]

Well at least we know why he didn't make the debate team.

His insistence on just blowing the other team away instead of being able to actually articulate his point of view just didn't fir within the rules.

Citation?

 

[Kulindahr]

You can take the gun out of the culture but not the culture out of the gun. UK just has a different social makeup/history. OK...not explaining myself well but it isn't the availability of guns. It's a violence prone culture goes back to manifest destiny and all that. UK not all similar...

But Colorado seems to have more than a fair share of these events....

Yes -- the US has a significantly adversarial culture. I'm not sure it has much to do with manifest destiny; I could make a better argument that it has to do with the Puritan heritage -- people who think that drowning those accused of being witches do not contribute constructively to a culture!

I once suspected that our exaltation of people like Jesse James and Bonnie and Clyde was a major influence, but info from Australia and other places with such legendary figures made me dial that back to an unhelpful but hardly determinative influence -- movies today showing that ending problems using a firearm is a happy resolution are bigger contributors.

The interesting thing about the Colorado shooters is that they seem to come from definitely advantaged families, and that even friends have described them as"odd" or "weird".

 

[Kulindahr]

3D printers printing weapons

Not even part of the picture yet, despite Chuck Schumer's ranting. The only firearms coming from printers that are worth anything at all have to have major parts made of metal -- barrels and firing chambers made of plastic just don't last... and thanks to my fellow Pink Pistols posting videos, I've watched handgun after handgun come from a printer and blow up before finishing an eight-round clip.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh my…America's favourite pastime strikes again!

Hardly. Injuring ad even killing others playing sports is far more popular. Some years there are more concussion in high school and college sports than there are critical or fatal shootings.

 

[Kulindahr]

Industry is not without sin here. Can your job application ask you if you have diabetes or heart anomalies? Yet, everyone knows you can have to report mental health issues to your potential employer.

It is a sad irony that if you report having suicidal thoughts, it can be professional suicide once mental health issues come out in the work place.

Yeah. I liked that about one place I worked; for insurance reasons the application required revealing mental issues, but the boss and hiring guy never read that page. We definitely had a higher proportion of people seeing psych-docs than the average population, but it was a happy and productive place -- something the boss fostered, but which OSHA did their best to kill when a whiner reported something to them.

 

[Kulindahr]

To the contrary , the entire import of debate is to address conflict via the mode of reason and rationality.

It should indeed be surprising when a kid turns something intellectual into a motive to murder a teacher.

Ever worked with a debate team? With the wrong coach, winning can become everything.

 

[darden]

I now it is going to be an unpopular view from the right wing Yanks, but when is the US going to realise that making it harder to own guns will stop this sensless killing?

rates of gun violence (including "spree" shootings) have actually been on the decline for decades. but we're much more aware of it now thanks to the internet.

20 years ago, a kid walking into a school and injuring two students before killing himself probably never would have made the news outside of local papers. now, it's instantly broadcast everywhere in the world right as it happens and anyone with a google news alert for "guns" is instantly made aware any time someone uses a gun anywhere in the world.

I'm in favor of gun regulation, but it's silly to think that anything short of repealing the 2nd and 4th amendments* would stop shootings from happening. most of these seem to be teenagers stealing legally-purchased guns from their parents, family friends, etc. no amount of background checks or waiting lists would stop that.

(repealing the 2nd alone would still leave millions of guns out there on the streets... we'd also need to repeal the 4th so police can start busting down doors and searching everyone's home for contraband. we'd also have to 100% secure the two wide-open boarders that the US has, which is something I'd imagine countries like England and Australia didn't have to deal as much with after passing their sweeping reform legislations)

 

[m1thousand]

Mark, I put it that your model is all wrong.

Crazies and killers aren't a bunch of cockroaches trying the windows and doors, trying to figure out how to get at their targets. They're crazies and killers.

We aren't seeing shootings increase because they have easier access to guns -- there has ALWAYS been easy access to all sorts of guns in this country. We're seeing an increase because there are more demented and violent people.

The guns don't make them that way. They ARE that way.

Think of how many million guns there are in the U.S. Violent gun crime is not present in direct proportion to the numbers of guns present. For this to be a valid assumption, one would have to track the numbers of school shootings, mass shootings, etc., from their inception, and then compare to the total number of guns in the public's hands. One will not find a proportional increase.

One cannot even dump it all on the Reagan era abandonment of the mentally ill. Many of these attacks have happened with young men who were not repeat violent offenders. That is to say, they would not have been in an institution at their age anyway, not most of them.

Why werent they (school shooters) around when the post office and mass murders were going on?

I agree. Well said (as always)

I'm not worried about plastic guns -- so far, even with experts working on the problem, no printed gun manages more than a handful of shots before it blows up. Unless you want to go to materials that would make a printed gun cost hundreds or thousands of dollars, it just can't be done yet. OTOH, many gun parts can be printed, the ones that don't take much of a shock, but that's not enough to make a gun "invisible". So though 3D printers are becoming widely available, it will be some time before one will be capable of printing a useful firearm... there are some thing they could print now that could be very deadly, but I'm not going to specify.

Many things failed when first tried. But why is there legislation about this if this wasnt a legitimate concern?

PS: Hey. Im just asking. I watched the Today show do a segment about 3d printers and guns and they never said there had been failed attempts. Once again, the media reporting half truths

congress-undetectable-3d-printed-guns-are-still-illegal
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-5...detectable-3d-printed-guns-are-still-illegal/

The-worlds-fully-3-D-printed-gun-tested-Feds-blows-faces
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-3-D-printed-gun-tested-Feds-blows-faces.html

 

[dereperez]

Oh my…America's favourite pastime strikes again!

That remark is off-color (or off-colour for you Cannucks).

 

[Callum]

Hardly. Injuring ad even killing others playing sports is far more popular. Some years there are more concussion in high school and college sports than there are critical or fatal shootings.

That remark is off-color (or off-colour for you Cannucks).

Oh, I should have clarified -- was referring to the over-saturation and glorification of violent acts in media. Violence in America is definitely a cruel hydra of sorts, a problem no other developed country has on such a scale. There are too many elements to "fix" this issue and there will never be a solution no matter how much wishful optimism is thrown at it.

Outright blaming gun culture is something the left whines about, the right oftentimes blame Hollywood/entertainment, some argue America's adversarial culture, both sometimes refer to mental health stigma. The issue with blaming any of the aforementioned is that other developed countries also have all of the above, with the exception of guns. Something's gotta give somewhere.

 

[rareboy]

Citation?

Pure Assumption....

 

[LeicsDom]

But, as it has been argued ad nauseum, those with criminal intent will find a gun. Being harder to find will not stop the psychos, or in this case, probably just the malevolent.

But it will cut down the number who use guns.

 

[LeicsDom]

I do not honestly understand all or part of a youth's realization that killing is okay because it solves their immediate problems

I don't think it is about solving their problems. It is more about a feeling of not being listened to.
Of course it is way too extreme a solution

 

[LeicsDom]

That is speculative, based on the assumption that these events are only happening because they can happen so easily.

It is just as easy to speculate that the violent tendencies that drive these attacks will continue, with the kids still finding guns. There are just too many out there, and hunting weapons aren't going away under anyone's proposed legislation.

This was a shotgun. And you have failed to address the question of the machete and Molotov cocktails. That indicates a lot more than a pissy kid getting up one day and deciding to take dad's shotgun and kill his teacher with it. These psychos plan out there crime over time. Getting a weapon or making a pipe bomb isn't going to be in the too-hard pile for them.

My point is that if it is harder to possess weapons then the perpetrators will use lesser weapons.
It is far too easy for SOME kids/adults to get hold of guns.
There may be some correlation between easily getting a gun and supplementing that weapon with others.
It may be that, without access to a gun and its attendant assumption of superiority and/or arrogance, the perpetrator may not have felt a compulsion to source other weapons to supplement his arsenal.

 

[LeicsDom]

That's a convenient way of characterizing not getting everything they want. Jumping to the conclusion that they are just acting out from being ignored is a bit simplistic and to generous to the perpetrators. It denies both malevolence and evil, both of which could be accurately used to describe many of these murders.

Of course malevolence and evil have to be present but I feel that it is the easy access to weapons of all sorts which allows those feelings to manifest themselves. If the person is not feeling isolated, ignored, hard done by then they will not be spurred to wreak 'revenge'
It appears in this case that all that sparked his outburst was being dropped from the debating society. Hardly a reason to react so badly but it was obviously the straw that broke the camel's back. There will emerge a whole raft of mental health issues in due course

 

[MoufOfKhaos]

Lovely. Another school school, and then we get the 'Muhricah bashing, right on schedule.

Contact me when your countries are perfect.