Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

[Kulindahr]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

Well and there's another thing too, and it's the reason why, I believe, Kul did not respond to the point raised to him about the framers of the Constitution enshrining into law human bondage. It makes you grapple with two truths that I think are uncomfortable for purists like Kulindahr:

1) The founding fathers were not right on everything, they were not infallible, and they did not give us a perfect or completely just system worthy of defending verbatim without change according to original intent in the 18th century for all the rest of time.

2) That not everything as originally intended in the 18th century framing was, or is, appropriate to apply to modern times or modern sensibilities or to our sense of inclusive democracy or social justice as it IMPROVED over time from the one they had at the time of the founding of this country-- including, but not limited to, the issue of slavery.

Kul would set the goalposts so that no change could ever contradict the intended meaning of the framers at the time the Constitution was written. Unfortunately, under that same ruleset, women would not be voting today, nor would non-landowners, and blacks would be human property.

You're either purposely lying, a la Glen Beck, or again not paying attention to my posts. Either way, this isn't worth responding to.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

If the evals were paid for by the government, that's an arguable case. But "conservatives" won't want to pay the cost to have the militia thus evaluated, even though it would help -- to use the Amendment's language -- the security of a free state.

I'd have such evals as part of a standard program beginning about age twelve -- along with training on how to treat firearms safely (for twelve year olds that's easy: unless under the direct supervision of a responsible adult, leave them alone).

And in the meantime, any time a public institution like a college notes that someone is too dangerous to have on campus, that data should be in the NICS!

It seems, then, Kulindahr, that the only area where we disagree is that, in an assumption of nothing changing with regard to qualifications, standards and proper training required for private gun owners under the "militia" aspect of the 2nd Amendment, it appears to me to be your position that the status quo should simply remain regardless of whether any qualifications are ever established. It's mine that the cost to society is too high and the benefit to society (security of a free state, the ability of individual citizens to stop crime with their firearms) is too sporadic and mythical to be taken seriously as a tradeoff for the cost.

Or in other words, it appears to me that you think what we both agree should happen is strictly optional, whereas I think it should be a condition for widespread private access to firearms, in light of what guns are doing in our society.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

You're either purposely lying, a la Glen Beck, or again not paying attention to my posts. Either way, this isn't worth responding to.

Do I need to start a drinking game where I take a shot everytime a post you do not wish to reply to, you simply respond with "you didn't read my posts?"

My points are pretty relevant, and at this point I just think you don't want to address them. You dodged a similar challenge to your assertion that it was never the framer's intent that anything other than exactly what they meant should be changed in law when we brought up the 13th Amendment.

The Constitution is a framework, letting it be a prison would have us 300 years behind on a multitude of issues.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

As usual, the US is already moving on from this shooting and is blaming anything other than guns. By next week, because these were all 'civilians' the debate will be strangled again as everyone blames video games and the unsolvable mental health care system for this latest tragedy. Hell, some of that has chewed up most of this thread and I suspect that we won't even see page four and if we do, it will be the same sterile debate about the 2nd Amendment versus the preservation of a civil society.

It is an irony for sure that the 2nd Amendment fanatics who rest their argument on a watchful and responsible citizenry are safe in the status quo they wish to keep only because of an attention-deprived, apathetic citizenry.

The problem is that politicians have trained the electorate to have such a short attention span that once blame gets argued over, everyone loses interest in actually solving anything.

BTW, what's "unsolvable" about the mental health care system? It's only beyond solution if apathy prevails.

At any rate, the discussion needs to move from the Second Amendment, where the individual right is, as Justice Sotomayor put it, "settled law", and over to Article 1, section 8: Congress has the authority to discipline the militia. The militia is plainly not disciplined, so let Congress get off their asses and do their jobs!

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

It seems, then, Kulindahr, that the only area where we disagree is that, in an assumption of nothing changing with regard to qualifications, standards and proper training required for private gun owners under the "militia" aspect of the 2nd Amendment, it appears to me to be your position that the status quo should simply remain regardless of whether any qualifications are ever established. It's mine that the cost to society is too high and the benefit to society (security of a free state, the ability of individual citizens to stop crime with their firearms) is too sporadic and mythical to be taken seriously as a tradeoff for the cost.

Or in other words, it appears to me that you think what we both agree should happen is strictly optional, whereas I think it should be a condition for widespread private access to firearms, in light of what guns are doing in our society.

It's my position that you don't trample the Constitution for your "solution", even if it means no solution is immediately forthcoming.

Beyond that... Time to start a thread.....

 

[JayHawk]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

The problem with a mental health solution is that it would be toothless and blind. The NRA will never allow doctors to remove gun rights and without a tracking system you can never be sure someone does not have weapons PRIOR to a diagnosis.

I agree that the mental health system is SHIT and whack jobs are the main reason we have so many issues. However without tracking system and mental health system ability to remove access to weapons, coupled with required security locks for all gun owners.... then any effort fails at the word go.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

The problem with a mental health solution is that it would be toothless and blind. The NRA will never allow doctors to remove gun rights and without a tracking system you can never be sure someone does not have weapons PRIOR to a diagnosis.

I agree that the mental health system is SHIT and whack jobs are the main reason we have so many issues. However without tracking system and mental health system ability to remove access to weapons, coupled with required security locks for all gun owners.... then any effort fails at the word go.

Presenting the mental healthcare system as the primary solution also somehow assumes everyone capable of snapping, or going to snap, can be reliably identified or identified at all.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

Do I need to start a drinking game where I take a shot everytime a post you do not wish to reply to, you simply respond with "you didn't read my posts?"

My points are pretty relevant, and at this point I just think you don't want to address them. You dodged a similar challenge to your assertion that it was never the framer's intent that anything other than exactly what they meant should be changed in law when we brought up the 13th Amendment.

The Constitution is a framework, letting it be a prison would have us 300 years behind on a multitude of issues.

You're changing the foundation of your argument in the middle of this post, which makes it fallacious.

And your points were based on falsehoods about my position. You seem to be like a certain "conservative" on this board, unable to separate your imagined position of "the opposition" from what people here say.

 

[JayHawk]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

True, however most high profile cases have significant signs of mental issues prior to their acts.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

You're changing the foundation of your argument in the middle of this post, which makes it fallacious.

And your points were based on falsehoods about my position. You seem to be like a certain "conservative" on this board, unable to separate your imagined position of "the opposition" from what people here say.

I think you're playing games to get out of the fact that you have essentially asserted that any attempt to get away from the original intent of the framers at the time of the writing of the Constitution is somehow inherently corrupting law and trampling on the Constitution, when the framers clearly intended many things we have changed, including suffrage and human bondage.

You don't get to say one amendment should be read as a fundamentalist would interpret a bible verse and others are malleable or okay to amend and update over time. So which is it?

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

The problem with a mental health solution is that it would be toothless and blind. The NRA will never allow doctors to remove gun rights and without a tracking system you can never be sure someone does not have weapons PRIOR to a diagnosis.

I agree that the mental health system is SHIT and whack jobs are the main reason we have so many issues. However without tracking system and mental health system ability to remove access to weapons, coupled with required security locks for all gun owners.... then any effort fails at the word go.

Tracking isn't needed, besides being impossible.

For the rest, yes -- for a well-regulated militia, meaning what G. Washington did by the term, communities have to be able to remove access to weapons, and there have to be strict storage rules (written by people who understand firearms, BTW; I don't have secure storage for my firearms right now, so except for the one under my personal control, I've removed critical parts from each one so they're nothing but paperweights or door props -- and that's a quite legitimate method [in fact it would tickle me if a bad guy broke in to see him grab one of my disabled ones and try to threaten me with it]).

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

Presenting the mental healthcare system as the primary solution also somehow assumes everyone capable of snapping, or going to snap, can be reliably identified or identified at all.

That's far, far less true than the assumption on the other side that telling a criminal it's against the law for him to have a firearm will keep him from getting and using one. Most criminals who want to use a gun just laugh at gun laws as they apply to themselves (while cheering for ones that supply more victims), so no such law is going to have any significant effect. But a law requiring, for purposes of the militia, for every adult to have government-paid evaluations, will catch a very large portion of people who are a threat -- as we know, a proper system would have prevented several of the shootings in the last couple of years, since the shooters were already known to be psychologically incompetent for having weapons.

And that's all we can do -- take measures that will actually address significant chunks of the problem. If a rigorous mental health system would eliminate even a third of such shootings, it's worth the investment.

 

[Kulindahr]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

I think you're playing games to get out of the fact that you have essentially asserted that any attempt to get away from the original intent of the framers at the time of the writing of the Constitution is somehow inherently corrupting law and trampling on the Constitution, when the framers clearly intended many things we have changed, including suffrage and human bondage.

You don't get to say one amendment should be read as a fundamentalist would interpret a bible verse and others are malleable or okay to amend and update over time. So which is it?

You're making the same fallacious error. You're also once again stating my position falsely.

I'll say this much again: NOTHING in the Constitution is "malleable" -- that's the anti-liberty position from liberals who want it to "evolve", so they can change the meaning without changing the law.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

That's far, far less true than the assumption on the other side that telling a criminal it's against the law for him to have a firearm will keep him from getting and using one. Most criminals who want to use a gun just laugh at gun laws as they apply to themselves (while cheering for ones that supply more victims), so no such law is going to have any significant effect. But a law requiring, for purposes of the militia, for every adult to have government-paid evaluations, will catch a very large portion of people who are a threat -- as we know, a proper system would have prevented several of the shootings in the last couple of years, since the shooters were already known to be psychologically incompetent for having weapons.

And that's all we can do -- take measures that will actually address significant chunks of the problem. If a rigorous mental health system would eliminate even a third of such shootings, it's worth the investment.

I don't understand how you can propose a system that in your first paragraph you eliminate as having any potential for working.

After all, if criminals want guns they'll just get them illegally and not undergo any of the checks, training and evaluations, according to you.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

You're making the same fallacious error. You're also once again stating my position falsely.

I'll say this much again: NOTHING in the Constitution is "malleable" -- that's the anti-liberty position from liberals who want it to "evolve", so they can change the meaning without changing the law.

It was your position as at least myself and a few others here understood it, and since you refused to respond, you don't get to simply sit back and say it's our fault we don't get your position correctly.

 

[Stardreamer]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

NRA's LaPierre blames poor security for Navy Yard shooting

Ya know LaPierre needs to get a panel of five year old's to proof his comments for common sense and believably before he goes on camera. From what I can tell the Navy Yard's security was as good as most military bases and if that's 'wide open' then nothing short of what you go through for the airport is good enough.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

NRA's LaPierre blames poor security for Navy Yard shooting

Ya know LaPierre needs to get a panel of five year old's to proof his comments for common sense and believably before he goes on camera. From what I can tell the Navy Yard's security was as good as most military bases and if that's 'wide open' then nothing short of what you go through for the airport is good enough.

The only fix we'll ever hear from the fanatical gun camp is "there should have been more people there with more guns." Whether it's a classroom or a military base that gets shot up.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

La Pierre is not fanatical, he's greedy and pushes that very option because the gun industry is giving him head.

 

[xbuzzerx]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

La Pierre is not fanatical, he's greedy and pushes that very option because the gun industry is giving him head.

I probably do a poor job of distinguishing between people fanatic from personal financial interest and people who are fanatic from delusions they can fight the U.S. military one day with their handgun because they're so intertwined and say the same things that make no sense.

 

[TX-Beau]

Re: Breaking News: Shooting At U.S. Navy Yard In Washington, D.C.

Simple if they are head of something that pays big money, venal and greedy - if they are on a blog saying "libtard" idiot fanatic.