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Shooting instructor dies after being accidentally shot by girl

Could have been worse the little girl uzi could have shot herself, parents, & anyone else in the place. Fortunately there was only one fatality.

Next up on the family agenda teach the 9 yr old how to safely handle and use a 26" - gas powered 2 stroke chain saw.
 
Could have been worse the little girl uzi could have shot herself, parents, & anyone else in the place. Fortunately there was only one fatality.

I have had this same thought.

And what would have happened if the girl had wiped out the entire shooting range? Nothing. The owner of the place would have explained how appropriate it was to put an Uzi in the hands of a child, the NRA would have proposed legislation to put more Uzis in the hands of more children, and Kulindar would have explained how the girl is part of the militia that has been protecting us for the past 225 years.


Next up on the family agenda teach the 9 yr old how to safely handle and use a 26" - gas powered 2 stroke chain saw.

I have no doubt that, had the 2nd Amendment granted a right to use of chainsaws for the purpose of clearing dead trees, that we would all be sawing each other in half with impunity. Because #murica
 
"7 Ways Children Can Have Fun at the Shooting Range" via @TeamWON. READ: http://www.womensoutdoornews.com/...
— @NRAWomen
This tweet sent after the shooting. At least they waited until the body was cold.

They are, now, officially IDIOTS.

Only one or two steps behind the intentional absurdity in T-Rexx's post:
the NRA would have proposed legislation to put more Uzis in the hands of more children
Which may mean it's not an absurdity at all. Instead, he may have nailed it.

The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.
 
You namby pamby lefties are the crazy ones.

Every nine year old girl has the right to bear arms. Nine year olds are citizens too! If you take away her right to bear arms, she is nothing but cattle.

Sure, it's tragic she blew some guy's brains out all over her little pink sweater, but THAT"S NOT WHAT IS IMPORTANT HERE! What the statistics don't show is how many nine year olds are alive today, and how many friends and families they have saved, because they are trained to use guns. Nine year olds save thousands of lives every year with their guns, but all that the media reports is the bad stuff.

Some guy somewhere did a study two decades ago that proves this! Okay, when he got asked to prove his statistics he couldn't provide the data because his hard drive crashed and not a single person who worked with him on the study could ever be found, but that's not the point! All those other professional, verifiable, peer reviewed studies that show that more guns equals more gun deaths? They're WRONG!

I feel sorry for this little girl, because now she will probably hate guns, just because of one silly accident. She will never know the love of guns like Americans should. Her parents need to get her right back out there on the shooting range, before she develops a real phobia. If they're not careful, she'll grow into a namby pamby lefty like all you guys, and NEVER carry a gun, and then she will live her life in constant fear of being attacked by some psycho with a gun. She might never know the safety and comfort of living with guns.
 
*Late NRA president Charleton Heston must be looking up at us, squealing with delight! (!)

No, because this goes against everything the NRA has to say about youth and guns.

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This ^ is what she should have been shooting, nothing else. It's specifically designed so kids can handle it.
 
I would take a non-automatic gun any day over a automatic one. Non-automatic guns are much easier to use. Firing an automatic gun and hitting your target takes a skill most people do not have, nor should have.

Exactly. My hunter safety instructor had a marksman rating with fully auto, and it is very, very hard to get.

Tactically, automatic weapons aren't for killing people, anyway -- they're for spraying so many bullets into the air the other guy decides it's better to keep his head down.

The post below is why I decided to post in this thread as well -- I don't appreciate people lying about my position (I presume this is meant to be what I said).

Another thread in hot topics. Same subject. Synopsis:
  • This would never have happened if they had picked a more age-appropriate weapon.
  • The instructor was doing it wrong
  • Clearly the instructor was an idiot, who should have followed the procedures I've decided make sense to follow when you teach a student in Grade 4 how to fire an assault weapon. You should tie the end of the weapon down when the child can't handle the Uzi because that would be a perfectly reasonable and sane thing to do.
You can't make this stuff up. It could be from saturday night live or the Onion or monty python.

The first two bullet points are accurate. The third is a distortion worthy of Rush Limbaugh.

The instructor made so many mistakes it's ridiculous, yes. I don't know if he was an idiot, or had been there too long that day, or what, but from viewing videos of other instructors with young shooters at that same rage, he wasn't even following their standard practices: he was standing on the wrong side of her, incorrectly in contact with her, and totally out of position to control the weapon if she lost control, as was almost inevitable.
There are no "procedures I've decided make sense", there are standard safety procedures that weren't followed. Besides the failings of the instructor already listed above, there are safety devices specifically made for keeping people safe when first-time students are attempting to handle automatic weapons -- but none were used.
The instructor -- who I doubt had any training or certification to be called that in the first place -- should have never handed her the weapon. Her body mass was too small to be able to handle it in the first place, and there is no way a kid that young is going to have the strength to control it anyway. Even if she had qualified on both those counts, the accident would have been likely anyway because the instructor gave not a single bit of guidance in how to control the firearm.
There is nothing "reasonable and sane" about this situation. And no, you don't "tie the end of the weapon down" -- that's sheer stupidity. It is not uncommon, though, to use a restraining loop for beginning students, to stop the muzzle swing before it goes too far.
The point of mentioning safety precautions which are available but were not used is to show that not only did the "instructor" foolishly allow the girl to even touch the weapon, but that his incompetence went far beyond that.

Finally, it's obvious that you can "make this stuff up", because you did.
 
The worst damage that the NRA and the Gun industry has done is to train people to think Guns are entertainment.

No one had to "train" anyone to think that way -- almost anyone who's ever taken the opportunity to actually do some shooting realizes that they are entertainment -- or, rather, that they can be. But just like, say, stock car racing, you have to know where is appropriate, what safety measures are appropriate, and especially, what participants are appropriate. And both the NRA and the firearms industry emphasize those.
 
Also that guns are safe. There is nothing "safe" about an instrument specifically designed to kill people.

Very few firearms are "specifically designed to kill people". Of those that are, not a one belongs in the hands of anyone under the age of sixteen -- and many, if not most, sixteen-year-olds are mature enough to handle one.

Although some guns which were once designed to kill people are a different matter; many bolt-action military rifles of the past are excellent for hunting and no more dangerous than a BB gun when handled correctly. The problem here is that a so-called "instructor" put a firearm into the hands of someone in whose hands it could not possibly have actually been safe.
 
...and once again, just to show everyone how fucked up and tone deaf the NRA is:

NRA: 'Children Can Have Fun At The Shooting Range'



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/nra-children-gun-range_n_5725674.html

They're talking about age-appropriate firearms under the guidance of actual instructors -- and the article was about targets kids might have more fun shooting at than boring bull's-eyes.

So far from being "tone deaf", if anything they're making the point that what happened was truly irresponsible and foolish.
 
Gun tourism grows in popularity in recent years



http://news.yahoo.com/gun-tourism-grows-popularity-recent-years-052300809.html


I thought this was a good read. It proves TX-Beau's point.

I don't see any "point" he's made that this has anything to do with.

It does show one thing:

Cohen's business, for example, is installing a tethering system that will prevent machine guns from riding upward after firing — the same motion that killed the gun instructor this week.

Remember the restraining loops I mentioned? Now, after not having them got someone killed, they're going to install them.

This, though, astounds me:

He said he doesn't know what went wrong, pointing out that Vacca was an Army veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'd say that the guy being a veteran of those two places is one reason things went so wrong: the guy had never been trained to think of kids as kids, with definite limitations, not just smaller "soldiers". If he'd been a real instructor, he would have remembered that in the military they don't even just hand you a weapon and say "Shoot!" -- they put you through intensive training first, including heavy safety training.

Then there's this:

Dave Workman, senior editor at thegunmag.com and a spokesman for the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, said it can be safe to let children shoot an automatic weapon if a properly trained adult is helping them hold it.

Obviously, the adult in question was not properly trained. But I disagree: the only way you could get me to let a kid that young fire a fully automatic weapon is if the weapon was bolted down on all three axes, so it couldn't move at all -- and then you'd have to fork over for insurance for everyone involved. And you'd have to pay me on the order of $10k in the first place, and give me two hours to train the kid (translation: try to scare her out of the whole idea) beforehand.


Lastly:

Scarmardo said his policy of allowing children 8 and older to fire guns under adult supervision and the watchful eye of an instructor is standard practice in the industry

If that's so, the "industry" needs to wake up. From the piss-poor alteration of its rules after this, it doesn't look like they will. So here's my suggestion: Congress needs to act, under its authority over the militia. For starters, designate fully automatic weapons as specifically military, and only allow properly trained members of the militia to fire one. Second, require actual instructors, NRA certified. Third, require the use of safety devices such as restraining loops. Fourth, require ranges to carry insurance for all minors allowed to shoot there.

Once upon a time people took firearms seriously and wouldn't have made a mistake like this. Since that kind of responsibility seems seriously lacking among a significant portion of the population, Congress has an obligation to take things in hand.
 
I think that technically an Uzi is a machine gun, next up, artillery!!

I saw the owner of the shooting range interviewed on TV, honestly, obviously this guy didn't even understand why people were incredulous. He kept kinda implying that all was safe since they only hired ex-military/law enforcement, like the problem with this was crime or something - I kept waiting for the interviewer to bring up the point that the ex-military/law enforcement trainer got offed by a nine year old girl, so OBVIOUSLY the credentials of the instructors were not the problem, but, no dice. They let him off easy. In any other "entertainment" industry there would be charges.

I have yet to hear that he had any credentials at all. He wasn't NRA certified as an instructor, and if he was military certified, well, that isn't sufficient for dealing with kids.

I haven't decided if there should be charges, but there should be a lawsuit or two.
 
I have had this same thought.

And what would have happened if the girl had wiped out the entire shooting range? Nothing. The owner of the place would have explained how appropriate it was to put an Uzi in the hands of a child, the NRA would have proposed legislation to put more Uzis in the hands of more children, and Kulindar would have explained how the girl is part of the militia that has been protecting us for the past 225 years.

Wow -- you're just a left-wing Benvolio: you operate on the basis of imagined monsters, and thus can't see reality, and you make shit up about other people's positions.

Everything the NRA has to say about kids and guns says this was wrong.
The girl obviously was not part of the militia; she wasn't yet 16, so she can't be, and under federal law at the moment females are only part of the militia if they want to be (males are stuck with it).
 
This tweet sent after the shooting. At least they waited until the body was cold.

They are, now, officially IDIOTS.

They're idiots for discussing what kinds of targets kids would rather shoot at than boring geometric ones? with age-appropriate firearms?

I'd say the idiots are the folks here who plainly didn't pay attention to what the NRA actually said. It's like after a big multiple vehicle wreck set off by an underage driver, someone might step up and talk about how and when kids can drive, and people screaming at the person for encouraging kids to drive illegally.

Only one or two steps behind the intentional absurdity in T-Rexx's post:

Which may mean it's not an absurdity at all. Instead, he may have nailed it.

The depth of ignorance here is astounding. Please, show me in the NRA's award-winning safety programs aimed at youth and firearms, where it says kids should be encouraged to use weapons too large for them?

The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun.

Actually the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is training so deep that even a bad guy won't be able to conceive of misusing a firearm so as to hurt another person.

But that's never going to happen because of all the deeply irrational fear of inanimate objects from the left. Listening to left-wing talking heads on this issue, one would have to conclude that they believe that guns are really demons from hell, with the power to possess people and make them be violent.
 
I have yet to hear that he had any credentials at all. He wasn't NRA certified as an instructor, and if he was military certified, well, that isn't sufficient for dealing with kids.

I haven't decided if there should be charges, but there should be a lawsuit or two.

Well there's a good question, what kind of licencing is required before you get to make policy decisions about letting children play with automatic assault weapons?
 
Everything the NRA has to say about kids and guns says this was wrong.
The girl obviously was not part of the militia; she wasn't yet 16, so she can't be, and under federal law at the moment females are only part of the militia if they want to be (males are stuck with it).

I would say what the NRA has to say about the appropriateness of this should be secondary to what the law says about it. Provided the teacher was properly qualified, was it even legal to put a combat assault weapon in a 9 year old girl's hands and teach her to use it? I don't know AZ law, and haven't heard anyone saying this was patently against state regulations, but it clearly should have been.

This "every state just sorta makes up whatever based on its population's mix of attitudes on guns" creates situations like these, regardless of what the NRA advises.
 
There is absofuckinlutely no way in hell the NRA wants national standards. Unless it's that there can't be national standards.

I agree, the NRA is NOT government.
 
Well there's a good question, what kind of licencing is required before you get to make policy decisions about letting children play with automatic assault weapons?

At the moment, apparently none. And "play" strikes home: that "instructor" seemed to be trying to be a playmate, not an authority figure.
 
There is absofuckinlutely no way in hell the NRA wants national standards. Unless it's that there can't be national standards.

I agree, the NRA is NOT government.

This is true; the 'leadership' would just play the states' rights card. But Congress has the authority under Article I to organize the militia, so La Pierre and his cronies can stuff it. Granted, there's no authority to regulate the weapon itself, but there's plenty of authority to set rules for who can "play" with one. In fact, I see no constitutional barrier to just flat out saying that no one not a member of the militia is allowed to so much as put a finger on the trigger of one.
 
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