Attention Signs you're getting old.

[Alistair]

Methinks Dorothy is a vestige of gay clubs/bars/drag shows. It's only a thing for the drag fans and Broadway musical bunch, who were the cinema and television reps for gays until recently. I'm a fan of the movie, although not Judy, and never associated the movie with my orientation.

Maybe that says something about the oppression of gays for so long and how difficult it made it to find our dream, our yellow brick road. Maybe it's a good thing younger generations have not identified with the angst and despair of Dorothy.

Never stopped to break it down before. Just wrote it off as drag queen schtick.

A friend of Dorothy was because Dorothy was accepting of everyone. I believe it was used widely as I remember a story about the military using it too.

 

[gsdx]

In my day, it was a secret code:

"Do you know Dorothy?"

"I know Dorothy."

"I'm a friend of Dorothy's."

 

[Alistair]

Not the story that I remember but this is what wiki said about the history with the navy

In the early 1980s, the Naval Investigative Service was investigating homosexuality in the Chicago area. Agents discovered that gay men sometimes referred to themselves as "friends of Dorothy." Unaware of the historical meaning of the term, the NIS believed that a woman named Dorothy was at the center of a massive ring of homosexual military personnel. The NIS launched an enormous hunt for Dorothy, hoping to find her and convince her to reveal the names of gay servicemembers.

I don’t know how true that is.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

Not the story that I remember but this is what wiki said about the history with the navy



I don’t know how true that is.

That came from Randy Shilts's book Conduct Unbecoming, about the history of gays in the military. (I still remember him telling the story on All Things Considered.)

 

[Dargelos]

It is scary to think that an agency playing a vital role in a nations security could be so idiotic.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

Okay, guys. Dorothy Gale as Dorothy Gale, the young girl from Kansas, wasn't a gay icon in and of herself. Judy Garland -- the adult Judy -- became a gay icon because of her movie musicals and concert performances (like the famous one at Carnegie Hall). Judy would often end her concerts with "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" sung as a yearning torch song; gay men in the 1950s and '60s really identified with that, so Judy-as-Dorothy was part of the gay icon thing by extension.

And that's how gays became "friends of Dorothy." ("Friends of Judy" would have been too obvious.)

 

[NotHardUp1]

Without any statistical evident, I would still infer that Garland was beatified because she had so much angst, and shared a lot of turf with alcoholic and doper gays who "self-medicated" their pain and worsened their lot in so doing.

And I continue to asser that the gay club and bar cruising crowd always did, and still does, represent a minority of gays, but the most visible and most vocal. The melodramatic and over-the-top bravado of Garland was appealing to a very specific subset, the same that enjoyed similar traits in drag personas.

Just one gay's impression, but I'm not seeing anything data-wise that means it's not true, either.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

Maybe that says something about the oppression of gays for so long and how difficult it made it to find our dream, our yellow brick road.

Not our yellow brick road, not exactly. Our over-the-rainbow.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Not our yellow brick road, not exactly. Our over-the-rainbow.

I have to confess that I have always disliked the song and its mythical rainbow. To me, it always embodied wistfulness and pining, and idealized tomorrows.

The poverty I came from, and the harsh realities of the dominant homophobic society, made that sentimentality a luxury I could not afford.

My dreams had all put on their boots and work gloves by the time I became gay in my adolescent teens.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

Without any statistical evident, ... Just one gay's impression, but I'm not seeing anything data-wise that means it's not true, either.

Where would such statistics come from?

I would still infer that Garland was beatified because she had so much angst

Yes.

and shared a lot of turf with alcoholic and doper gays who "self-medicated" their pain

Not just addicts. Any gay who hoped for some place and time where he could be who he was and love whom he loved without worrying about losing everything if other people ever knew -- some "over-the-rainbow."

I continue to assert that the gay club and bar cruising crowd always did, and still does, represent a minority of gays

Yes. But to the extent there ever was a gay male subculture, they're the ones who created it.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Where would such statistics come from?

A sociology, demographics controlled poll, to begin with.

1. Are you gay or bi?

2. Do you openly identify as gay or bi?

3. Do you believe you are represented well in media by gays depicted or by gay advocates?

4. Do you feel Broadway stars and musicals somehow speak for you uniquely as a gay man?

5. Do you feel Judy Garland as "Dorothy" has special meaning to you because you are gay? If so, why?

The survey would have to be controlled by those who understand how not to skew data by selecting the pool of resondents with any known bias.

Not just addicts. Any gay who hoped for some place and time where he could be who he was and love whom he loved without worrying about losing everything if other people ever knew -- some "over-the-rainbow."

True, but there's no suggestion Garland was kept from loving whom she pleased. Her life was a big mess due to her addiction, and I still think a large percentage of those going to gay bars in the bygone decades developed those same problems. Literally, all the out gays I knew in my hometown were alcoholics.

Yes. But to the extent there ever was a gay male subculture, they're the ones who created it.

Yes, and they unintentionally co-opted gay identity in the process.

That's why we see a pushback against those tropes today, as gay is being redefined along orientation, and epoxied to some cultural norms of femininity, flaming, cattiness, promiscuity, flamboyance, urbanized, white middle class, embittered, cruising, rent-boy, coastal, or any of the other connotations that came as a combo pack.

 

[gsdx]

We might not even be having this discussion about Dorothy if the producers of The Wizard of Oz had had their way. They wanted to remove 'Over the Rainbow' from the film. They felt it slowed down the movie too much.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

A sociology, demographics controlled poll, to begin with.
1. Are you gay or bi?
2. Do you openly identify as gay or bi?
3. Do you believe you are represented well in media by gays depicted or by gay advocates?
4. Do you feel Broadway stars and musicals somehow speak for you uniquely as a gay man?
5. Do you feel Judy Garland as "Dorothy" has special meaning to you because you are gay? If so, why?
The survey would have to be controlled by those who understand how not to skew data by selecting the pool of respondents with any known bias.

I'm trying to imagine how and by whom that poll would have been conducted, and who would have answered it frankly, in the 1960s and '70s, which is when this association came about. (Already by the '90s, young gays didn't know who Judy Garland was or why she'd been an icon, and they knew the "friends of Dorothy" thing, if they knew it at all, as a relic of the past.)

True, but there's no suggestion Garland was kept from loving whom she pleased.

There never was. That was projected onto the song by gay men, the way ideas and issues so often get projected onto or associated with songs or books or people in popular culture.

Yes, and they unintentionally co-opted gay identity in the process.

Of course they did. That was what was visible. Gay guys living quietly in Albuquerque or Anchorage or Alabama, calling no undue attention to themselves, are living the best lives for themselves, which is great, but they don't create any visible gay culture that gets identified by the wider society. And that's ideal for those guys, but the wider society can only identify as a culture things that it can see.

That's why we see a pushback against those tropes today, as gay is being redefined along orientation, and epoxied to some cultural norms of femininity, flaming, cattiness, promiscuity, flamboyance, urbanized, white middle class, cruising, rent-boy, coastal, or any of the other connotations that came as a combo pack.

There has always been a pushback. We (whoever we is) got a bit of a respite in the late '90s and '00s, but that's it.

 

[NotHardUp1]

I'm trying to imagine how and by whom that poll would have been conducted, and who would have answered it frankly, in the 1960s and '70s, which is when this association came about. (Already by the '90s, young gays didn't know who Judy Garland was or why she'd been an icon, and they knew the "friends of Dorothy" thing, if they knew it at all, as a relic of the past.)

All the more to my point. Assumptions that everyone did or didn't connect with the Dorothy image is entirely anecdotal.

Of course they did. That was what was visible. Gay guys living quietly in Albuquerque or Anchorage or Alabama, calling no undue attention to themselves, are living the best lives for themselves, which is great, but they don't create any visible gay culture that gets identified by the wider society. And that's ideal for those guys, but the wider society can only identify as a culture things that it can see.

I would say that the run-of-the-mill gays not in the spotlight ARE going to gay bowling leagues, gay dinner outings, gay choruses, and hiking groups, as out gays, but it's not flashy. It doesn't avoid attention, but it simply doesn't capture media focus because it's not exception. Again that is to my point. Most gays are not exception in their gayness. They simply love men and male sex, not any image created by a party group.

The wider society is gradually understanding that as they are forced to see more gays as more gays are out. When a couple's son comes out, but he doesn't fit any of the tropes, they learn, and their circles learn. It's a very slow process.

 

[backagain]

All the more to my point. Assumptions that everyone did or didn't connect with the Dorothy image is entirely anecdotal.


I would say that the run-of-the-mill gays not in the spotlight ARE going to gay bowling leagues, gay dinner outings, gay choruses, and hiking groups, as out gays, but it's not flashy. It doesn't avoid attention, but it simply doesn't capture media focus because it's not exception. .

Hardup1, that is what I would describe as the life that you lived and trying to incorporate into reality. Not so, each and everyone of us have has different experiences.

 

[Thad1527]

I think I've done all those things. And I certainly don't make headlines. I haven't made a TV appearance since 2002.

 

[TickTockMan]

Once a year you need to go through your phone contacts and delete the ones that died.

 

[fredroy]

Once a year you need to go through your phone contacts and delete the ones that died.

Same for Facebook.

 

[pigface]

Once a year you need to go through your phone contacts and delete the ones that died.

Go through the spiral bound notepad and put a line through those that have died, or changed to a cellular phone only.

 

[Alistair]