So, Im Bi But a Lot of Gay Culture Annoys the S#!^ Out of Me...

[subobj]

When these discussions come up (among my friends or on a board), I always feel like the elephant in the room that no one is acknowledging is "attitude." That aura of "I'm part of this scene and you're not and don't think for a second that you'll ever be more a part of it than I am right now."

Unless you're one of the glamorous ones (whatever that means depends on the specifics of each individual social scene), this attitude (which, let's admit it, is pretty pervasive, kind of the default comportment toward sociality in general in gay cultures of all kinds) can be really hurtful. And it's not even like you want to be part of the "in" crowd -- in fact, the whole idea of there being an "in" crowd based on such superficial things as appearance or adherence to set a looks & behaviors strikes you as pretty shallow and repugnant.

So why is the attitude there in the first place? I think it's clearly a case of people who've been marginalized making themselves feel better by marginalizing others. It's a human thing, and it's not restricted to gay people. But it hurts like hell when it comes from gay people, because they're the ones who are supposed to be our allies in a world that would rather, for the most part, deny our very right to existence.

How does one fight this? Not by excluding oneself, but rather by refusing to go away.

 

[Rick18]

I frequent a club around here, and I constantly see the different subgroups clash. Bears vs. twinks, masc vs. fem, pretty vs. not-so-pretty.

It's really sad that so many men think that because they're in a certain category, they need to act like an ass to someone from another category before the other person acts like an ass to them. I'm a twink, but I have no problem talking to anyone that would like to talk. So many older men look at me and literally turn their noses up at me because they assume I'm one of the typical twinks who thinks I'm going to be young forever and older people aren't worth talking to.

I don't particularly like being judged for being a twink, but that's just how life goes. I'm sure this also happens in the straight scene too. I often see bigger women making fun of bigger guys and skinny women because they think they should get a hot man (not saying they shouldn't), yet they make fun of skinny women for all the shit they've caught from being big. It's just a bad cycle that so many people, gay, bi, and straight get caught up in.

 

[Samskeyti]

If you're sick of the gay culture, anti-conform, start a subculture. The Hippies did, we can be the gay hippies.

 

[TygreBryte]

I actually sort of hope that's not the only way to be a gay hippy....

 

[gothamking]

1. Your statments make you sound very small minded. You make it sound like a disease. You're examples sound judgemental and incoherent. What does being catty have to do with techno music? There are straight men who are catty. There are also a lot of straight men who like techno music. I think you are just attempting to reinforce a horrible stereotype that you have wittnessed by watching too much LOGO.

2. Most of that shit annoys me too. At the same time I accept people for who they are and what they want to be. My best friend is a drag queen. I love him for it! It is art and he is damn good at it.

Danno, I assume this is directed at me.

Well, I dont think of myself as small-minded, generally. What I was expressing was my frustration with how gay culture, which bills itself as a "come as you are" community, is really rather restrictive and shallow. I guess I dont share a lot of the values of the mainstream gay culture, like self-absorption, one-night stands, and open relationships. Sure, the drawbacks of straight culture deserve its own thread, I was just commenting how I feel disconnected with a lot of what happens in this comminity. Of course, straight culture has everything I listed about gay culture. I had just hoped gay culture would be more of a refuge of sorts for me as a bi. Instead, Ive found it largely (though obvioulsy not entirely) exclusionary...even here in SF. Many gays Ive spoken to have a "youre either with us or aginst us" attitude with bis.

I never said, I wouldn't be friends with a drag queen or twink. Hell, Im even friends with Republicans! I dont really care what people are into. Im just interested with people who share my values, which gay culture largely doesn't. But then again neither does the hip hop culture of the Bay Area or the Silicon Valley high tech money culture down in San Jose. Im just tried of expressing my desire to someday have kids and have gay people roll their eyes. Yet, those same guys' eyes light up at the sight of Dolce and Gabbana bag.

Oh, and I don't watch LOGO, never have...I watch ESPN mostly. Waay hotter guys.

 

[gothamking]

not every guy is like that. and you live in San Francisco one of the cities where people could give two shits what you do. i get up there every other month and i can tell you that 90% of the gay/bi guys there are not all flamers, there mostly pretty normal guys. who go about their life's and dont worry about what others think.

maybe you need to get comfy with who you are and not worry about what the guys down the block are doing, or how their acting.

"what we dont like in others, is really what we dont like in our self's"

Again, I assume this is directed toward me...

Well, Im pretty comfortable with myself, actually. I love being bi! I just don't think a lot of gays are comfortable with the idea that I can be into both men AND women. I wish gays would understand that my bisexuality is not an assault on their homosexuality.

And as for the guys down the block, I wouldn't care what they were doing if they weren't blasting Donna Summer music all the time....

 

[dalton41]

Ok, I suspect people are gonna be all over me for this, but here goes....

As a bi man, I just dont identify with a lot of gay culture. In fact, a lot of it bugs the shit out of me. Im not down with drag or "the scene"or leather or brunch or decorating or cattiness or techno or eyeliner or fairies or boy spelled with an "i" or twinks or the drama of it all. I just like being with guys. I dont need or want this stuff. Honestly, a lot of it just turns my stomach and makes me more glad to be bi than gay. Not that being bi is in any way easy. But then again, gays give me more flak about being bi than anyone else, including str8s.

Obviously, this is a problem sometimes because a lot of gay and bi guys are into all this in one way or another.

Thoughts?

I feel the same way. When I first started going to gay bars, it was fun at first, but it was the same week after week after week. Same people, same problems and since I was not acting gay (I was being myself), most gays were turned off by me.

And I had no closet issue. Mostly because I found that it was nobody's business what I was. Why should I come to people who I had no interests in? So at age 50, I found a wonderful man that is 10 years younger and he was exactly who I had been looking for. I came out to him not even knowing if he was straight or bi or gay, I told him how I felt towards him. I do have another friend at work who knows about us but that is it.

 

[supergurl]

not every guy is like that. and you live in San Francisco one of the cities where people could give two shits what you do. i get up there every other month and i can tell you that 90% of the gay/bi guys there are not all flamers, there mostly pretty normal guys. who go about their life's and dont worry about what others think.

maybe you need to get comfy with who you are and not worry about what the guys down the block are doing, or how their acting.

"what we dont like in others, is really what we dont like in our self's"

I AGREE!!!

MAYBE YOU NEED A LITTLE MIRROR TIME!

 

[newbiguy]

we are what we are and they are what they are so live and let live why let it bother you?

 

[Sinister Ceez]

I think a lot of this misunderstanding comes failure to be able to relate to certain aspects of "gay culture".

I could be way off here but in my experience I've seen a lot of people who seem to adopt "acting gay" as an identity. I've been told things like I'm "straight acting" because I don't fall into the stereotypical behaviors. When I reply asking, "How exactly is having a boyfriend and liking men straight acting?" They try to explain themselves and I swear to you 9 times out of 10 I get a similar answer telling me something along the lines of my not doing this or doing that. Which were are stereo typical "gay" behaviors.

A lot of people have alos told me thing along the lines of I'm:

"confused"
"bi now, gay later"
"greedy"
"in denial"

The list goes on. I've come to realize that in some people in the GLBT community can be just as if not even more so harsh to others who are not like them than those who they criticize as intolerant when it comes to this topic. I'm sure there have been many cases where these stereotypes may be true for some indivuduals it's not true for everyone and there are limitless exceptions. I try to explain to them that humanity is not so easily governed by an absolute set of rules carved in stone. There is no black and white, just endless shades of gray...

 

[AngelFromAbove]

I don't identify with a lot of the stereotypical aspects of the gay culture, but I wouldn't say it annoys me. At least not any more than the stereotypical bisexual culture which seems so full of closet cases and men who think other men are purely sex objects to be played with inbetween "real" relationships with women. Both gay culture and the bi culture have some shortcomings in my eyes.

While there is a gay subculture, I would not say that there is a bisexual subculture, so to speak. However, there is that perspective with many bisexual men, as you said, that men are sex objects; men are for pleasure, women are for relationships.

 

[Piquechampion]

I don't identify with a lot of the stereotypical aspects of the gay culture, but I wouldn't say it annoys me. At least not any more than the stereotypical bisexual culture which seems so full of closet cases and men who think other men are purely sex objects to be played with inbetween "real" relationships with women. Both gay culture and the bi culture have some shortcomings in my eyes.

I´ll take anyday the screaming queen or the gym pumped club guy than any one of those creeps who fool around in public restrooms, and then they go and kiss thier wives with those same lips

 

[AngelFromAbove]

I believe there is as much of a bisexual subculture as there is a gay subculture. The perspective that men are mere sex objects and women are for relationships is a popular one amongst bisexual men. Look no further than this forum for some rather convincing proof of that.
My point is, just as sure as there is a gay subculture full of effeminate, club hopping, oversexualized men and drag queens, there is also a bisexual subculture full of men who believe anything beyond having sex with a male is emasculating, that keeping their wives in the dark about there escapades is the right thing to do, and that most gay men are beneath them because they are not masculine enough, or to put it more bluntly: fags. Personally I find both of these subcultures to be annoying at times because they're both horrendously hedonistic and scarcely concerned with the emotional aspects of relationships.

Well, when I was referring to the lack of a bisexual subculture, I meant that unlike other subgroups in America, bisexuals do not come together as a collective identity; that's the only reason that I hesitate to call it a subculture. However, I do understand what you are saying as far as certain ideas that many bisexual men carry.

I see you; Eye to eye, eye to eye. I wish there was a smilie for that.

 

[fireside]

Oh, and I don't watch LOGO, never have...I watch ESPN mostly. Waay hotter guys.

ESPN, in their effort to keep up with the ever-changing landscape of television, has turned innocent sporting events into reality television shows by focusing not only on the results on the field, but how everyone and their momma feels about certain players, coaches, etc. It's becoming Bristol's own SoAP Network, and I'm getting bored with it.

Cases in point:

- LSU's last second pass against Auburn. The announcers are all over "if he bobbles that, they lose". Quit worrying about 'what if' and worry about 'what just did'!

- Patriots coach [Bill] Belichick passes off a quick handshake to Colts' coach [Tony] Dungy after their game on Sunday. Reporters pick up on that as abrasive, insincere, etc. What, do you want them to knit a fucking sweater at midfield? Come on, guys.

That said, there are aspects of every community with which people individually will not identify. I, for instance, as an African American bisexual male, find myself pigeonholed before I open my mouth: I like rap, I speak ebonics, I have one (or more) kids by one (or more) women. I see the looks people give me when meeting me for the first time, or when I walk up to my tables. (Of course, being that I live in New Orleans, they probably assume I've looted something during the hurricane's aftermath.) As soon as I speak my first sentence, they get a confused look on their faces that quickly changes to "holy shit this guy might be smarter than me".

Anyways, that doesn't mean you can't be a part of that community in some way. It just means that your niche isn't where everyone else finds theirs. It's others' prerogative to be catty, "I'm prettier than you", "I only like white guys", "your stomach isn't flat enough", "you're too old", dress-wearing, leather strapping, assless chap wearing, to rock the leather chain-mail speedo. I'm just not going to participate, and would like to find others that wouldn't, either.

I do wish there was a gay sports bar--a bar where there are wall-to-wall flat screens showing multiple sporting events the world over, but with a largely gay/bisexual/at least open-minded about the subject crowd. Put a MusicMatch Jukebox on the wall, and let the screaming at your favourite team begin!

 

[theFallenGod]

OMG I am in SHOCK....

This entire thread and NO ONE has pulled out the ever hateful "self-hating fag" comment....

That usually accompanies one of these threads... because if you don't like everything the exclusive gay club has to offer than you must be a self-hating fag...

If you have any views different from the very cliquish gay culture than you are obviously a self-hating fag...


On a side note though... it is understandable... if you don't fit into any of the categories that define a majority of us than you are likely to be shunned...

However....

Just be yourself... you'll find someone better that way instead of trying too hard to fit in and becoming fake....

 

[boy0boy]

Well, I dont think of myself as small-minded, generally. What I was expressing was my frustration with how gay culture, which bills itself as a "come as you are" community, is really rather restrictive and shallow. I guess I dont share a lot of the values of the mainstream gay culture, like self-absorption, one-night stands, and open relationships. Sure, the drawbacks of straight culture deserve its own thread, I was just commenting how I feel disconnected with a lot of what happens in this comminity. Of course, straight culture has everything I listed about gay culture. I had just hoped gay culture would be more of a refuge of sorts for me as a bi. Instead, Ive found it largely (though obvioulsy not entirely) exclusionary...even here in SF. Many gays Ive spoken to have a "youre either with us or aginst us" attitude with bis.

I never said, I wouldn't be friends with a drag queen or twink. Hell, Im even friends with Republicans! I dont really care what people are into. Im just interested with people who share my values, which gay culture largely doesn't. But then again neither does the hip hop culture of the Bay Area or the Silicon Valley high tech money culture down in San Jose. Im just tried of expressing my desire to someday have kids and have gay people roll their eyes. Yet, those same guys' eyes light up at the sight of Dolce and Gabbana bag.

Oh, and I don't watch LOGO, never have...I watch ESPN mostly. Waay hotter guys.

Well going through this thread has proved less stressful than I imagined, good to see most of everyone remaining sane enough to avoid ridiculous assumptions and anger.

I have to say, although I can agree with some of what you said and many other guys here have proved to be true, that - there are a lot of guys who don't agree with those traits. But for you to say "a Lot of Gay Culture Annoys me" irks me because of one missing some words. (Look below for the bolded addition that would have made it more ideal.)

Now not to jump down your neck personally but for people who do actually see those traits as "the general gay community" I am saddened that you let straight commercialism make your choices for you. The fact is, most of that is so commercialized and made huge by the media that those ideas are 'true for all gay guys' to the small minded person. As you can see yourself there are many of us 'real' people who don't like that stuff either.

Tolerance in general is a fine line that will never be one extreme or the other. As much as we can point fingers at how some people who are gay judge you for being bi, the opposite has been proven with bi guys judging gay guys as fem. A good thought is to think about it in racial terms, do you think someone being half white and half black is suddenly accepted by both? Nope definately not. If anything they have more to struggle with being torn one way or the other, to 'prove' themselves. I see being bi in the same light. You didn't neccesarily choose the easy way out seeing as you kinda ostracize yourself from many gay guys, and the close minded straight people will no longer accept you as well. Point being: any close minded person is someone you should avoid, if you come across a 'bitchy' fem guy, then take his attitude as a personal flaw, not group him with anyone who looks similar.

I find bisexuality to be somewhat of a hard concept to understand myself, because I am not myself... just like some straight people have with accepting me. I just don't contain that piece that makes me attracted to both, but I meet bi guys and really enjoy learning about them for who they are. In a way I admire them, I think it would be difficult. Just like I admire trans people who have chosen their life to live regardless of the seemingly endless reasons to "play it safe."

I really understand your need to get the original message off your chest and in no way is this an attack, (which I don't think it comes across like) but I just wanted to share some of my thoughts.

I don't identify with a lot of the stereotypical aspects of the gay culture, but I wouldn't say it annoys me. At least not any more than the stereotypical bisexual culture which seems so full of closet cases and men who think other men are purely sex objects to be played with inbetween "real" relationships with women. Both gay culture and the bi culture have some shortcomings in my eyes.

i really liked this response. if my long ramblings don't make sense then this is basically what I'm thinking.

 

[rareboy]

I think that the majority of gay guys don't have a 'scene' they're into.

....but everyone should just enjoy it for what it is and recognize that like NASCAR, it is just a lifestyle choice for a lot of people. I don't get off on car racing or sports, but I certainly respect others' right to enjoy them.....and I've actually been at a couple of tailgate bbq's and enjoyed myself as well.

 

[thewiz]

It is interesting that a bunch of friends and I were having a similar discussion the other night. No one ever believes I am gay, maybe because up until a couple of years ago I lived as a straight man in a straight world with a wife and kids. Coming out was not something I ever regret and I love being with guys although I have a number of women friends; hell the other night I had five lesbians and three straight women in their 20's in my house and bed!

Back to the point, we did notice that the gay world of DC (which is a lot of the city) often seems pretty homogenous -- hair all cut and neat; clothes stylish; techno music, etc., etc. I tend to date younger guys (older or my age guys in DC are another thread topic or PM) and I had thought that they all had the same issues, same problems, same drama.

I've started going to places other than the usual clubs (the theater, volunteering, a new gay sports bar, a country-western gay bar) and find that there are differences in the groups much like there were in the straight world. In the straight world there were rednecks, jocks, sluts, goodie-two-shoes, holy Mary's, and the like. There are just new names in the gay world: bears, twinks....

A new bar just opened -- Nellie's Sports Bar -- and while twinks do go there, there are just as many jocks and "men." I know I tried to date a very feminine guy once and while it was exciting and something I needed to experience, it was probably not for me.

In our discussions we came to the conclusion that it was often where you are that determines the groups. There are country-western gay bars, sports bars, and the techno....kind of like a smorgasborg. Sometimes we get in ruts because we are comfortable going to certain places; it's when we stretch that we find the new and perhaps what we were originally looking for.

 

[mikehancock]

Ok, I suspect people are gonna be all over me for this, but here goes....

As a bi man, I just dont identify with a lot of gay culture. In fact, a lot of it bugs the shit out of me. Im not down with drag or "the scene"or leather or brunch or decorating or cattiness or techno or eyeliner or fairies or boy spelled with an "i" or twinks or the drama of it all. I just like being with guys. I dont need or want this stuff. Honestly, a lot of it just turns my stomach and makes me more glad to be bi than gay. Not that being bi is in any way easy. But then again, gays give me more flak about being bi than anyone else, including str8s.

Obviously, this is a problem sometimes because a lot of gay and bi guys are into all this in one way or another.

Thoughts?

I agree that there are some aspects of every culture that many of us don’t relate to or even care for. However, the answer is to be open to exploring what it is you do enjoy from each culture and focus on that. We are so quick to label ourselves and each other instead of just being.

 

[Raincoat Massacre]

I'm gay and I HATE the gay scene...
Parades, and cher *GAG*