On Topic Discussion So, should the baker be legally compelled to make the gay wedding cake? (US Supreme Court)

[Kulindahr]

I hate how concise you are, it almost makes it impossible to disagree with you, alas we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. For the life of me I still can't see this as anything but that ugly D word and it's all the more palpable with that suggestion about hanging a sign that lets homos know their patronage isn't welcome.

I think that would depend on how the sign read. If the law mandated one that read "My conscience will not allow me to (do X)", it would place the burden squarely where it belongs.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

I think that would depend on how the sign read. If the law mandated one that read "My conscience will not allow me to (do X)", it would place the burden squarely where it belongs.

To draw the parallel again to a real historical example, is there a difference between "whites only" and "no negroes?" is one supposed to be more polite than the other?

 

[luckynumbah7]

I have no clue. I know some things are based on number of employees, but if this is one?

Hm. I'd think that might depend on how the discrimination is phrased and the context of it, employee numbers included. Most of what I'm familiar with is people/small business claiming undue hardship (for all kinds of things) and that can be argued in a lot of ways, at least half of them done to save a dime, whether it be a literal one by refusing specific updates or because there's a fear that accepting certain clientele would evacuate a business. Most stores cater to specific demographics but it's the rare store who tells a possible customer 'we don't want your business.' The latter tend to find themselves dead in the water unless they have a good product and a large consumer base.

Since he didn't employ any of the work related assuaging techniques like recommending another artist or apologizing for his own hang ups, I gotta assume he was aiming for free publicity. But when you have to aim for the free shit, how successful is your business really.

 

[luckynumbah7]

whether it be a literal one by refusing specific updates or because there's a fear that accepting certain clientele would evacuate a business

Not that the latter is ever phrased in quite that way.

 

[MakeItTonite]

One of the promises supporting gay marriage was that that it wouldn't affect opponents in any way, shape or form. I'd classify forcing a private citizen to bake a cake as a way, a shape, a form.

I agree that certain battles should be chosen a little more carefully.

 

[medic1]

^But he is not a private citizen in this sense, as he operates a bakery selling to members of the public, which includes you and me.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

One of the promises supporting gay marriage was that that it wouldn't affect opponents in any way, shape or form. I'd classify forcing a private citizen to bake a cake as a way, a shape, a form.

I agree that certain battles should be chosen a little more carefully.

Fuck opponents. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 "affected opponents" of desegregation and inequality, as well it should have. You don't get to be a discriminatory fuck-bag with special protection from the law. Who "opposes" gay marriage anyway? People that dense don't really deserve favors from the supreme court. How about we oppose destroying the environment? Or killing unarmed black people? Or xenophobia? Nahhh, you know what's a worthy cause? Fighting against people who both have penises or vaginas from making a commitment to each other, sounds like a hellafied worthy cause.

 

[gsdx]

One of the promises supporting gay marriage was that that it wouldn't affect opponents in any way, shape or form. I'd classify forcing a private citizen to bake a cake as a way, a shape, a form.

I agree that certain battles should be chosen a little more carefully.

What if he refused to bake a cake for a black person? Or someone wearing a yarmulke? Or a single mother with 3 kids and no wedding ring on her finger? Or someone in a wheelchair? Or even refusing to allow a blind person into the shop with a guide dog?

Discrimination is still discrimination, no matter how you colour it.

 

[Kulindahr]

To draw the parallel again to a real historical example, is there a difference between "whites only" and "no negroes?" is one supposed to be more polite than the other?

That's not relevant to what I said.

 

[Kulindahr]

Hm. I'd think that might depend on how the discrimination is phrased and the context of it, employee numbers included. Most of what I'm familiar with is people/small business claiming undue hardship (for all kinds of things) and that can be argued in a lot of ways, at least half of them done to save a dime, whether it be a literal one by refusing specific updates or because there's a fear that accepting certain clientele would evacuate a business. Most stores cater to specific demographics but it's the rare store who tells a possible customer 'we don't want your business.' The latter tend to find themselves dead in the water unless they have a good product and a large consumer base.

Since he didn't employ any of the work related assuaging techniques like recommending another artist or apologizing for his own hang ups, I gotta assume he was aiming for free publicity. But when you have to aim for the free shit, how successful is your business really.

I'm not so sure he was "aiming for" anything other than keeping his tidy little world comfortable to him.

 

[Kulindahr]

One of the promises supporting gay marriage was that that it wouldn't affect opponents in any way, shape or form. I'd classify forcing a private citizen to bake a cake as a way, a shape, a form.

I agree that certain battles should be chosen a little more carefully.

I don't remember any "any way, shape or form" promises, just that it wouldn't affect anyone else's marriage or anyone's churches.

 

[Kulindahr]

What if he refused to bake a cake for a black person? Or someone wearing a yarmulke? Or a single mother with 3 kids and no wedding ring on her finger? Or someone in a wheelchair? Or even refusing to allow a blind person into the shop with a guide dog?

Discrimination is still discrimination, no matter how you colour it.

This is why I suggested that any signs should have to state "My conscience won't allow me...." Putting that in front of any of the above would result in a major backlash. Hopefully, putting in in front of "decorate a cake approving of gay marriage" would as well.


BTW, I have a service dog and used to be ejected from stores on all sorts of specious grounds even after informing them he's my service dog. It wasn't until I talked with the Department of Justice Civil Rights Division and got in writing that local police departments are subject to maximum fines for aiding businesses in violating the Americans with Disabilities Act did things change -- plus the fact that it allowed me to sue them as well, which if the DoJ had won I'd automatically win. (I keep hoping some business jerk will refuse me and the DoJ will take them to court; I could use the $50k a civil suit would bring me.)

 

[MakeItTonite]

What if he refused to bake a cake for a black person? Or someone wearing a yarmulke? Or a single mother with 3 kids and no wedding ring on her finger? Or someone in a wheelchair? Or even refusing to allow a blind person into the shop with a guide dog?

Not quite the same thing. The baker didn't refuse to serve the gay couple. He turned down their request for a custom wedding cake explaining that the celebration of same-sex marriage defies his religious beliefs. As I understand it he did offer to bake them anything else they might like. (He also states that he won't do anti-American, racist, or Halloween themed cakes, to name a few.)

Discrimination is still discrimination, no matter how you colour it.

It is a form of discrimination. The question is whether or not the baker can do it legally. I don't believe he has much of a case. I don't see his creating a wedding cake as a celebration or an endorsement of nuptials. It's a transaction; the exchange of payment for his service. If out of the kindness of his heart he decided to gift a wedding cake, that's what I would considered to be a clear gesture of celebration and endorsement.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

I voted "Unsure / Don't Know" and I am still on the fence.

 

[Deandbn]

my goodness.. what a fuss over nothing.. just get someone else to make it.. hey maybe even a gay person who would probably do a better job..

 

[hylas]

Wow... I know not that many folks have voted on this poll, but I'm really disappointed. :/

 

[mydrew1]

As individuals yes, but not the business

 

[peeonme]

my goodness.. what a fuss over nothing.. just get someone else to make it.. hey maybe even a gay person who would probably do a better job..

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"...Martin Niemoller

Today it's a cake, tomorrow a motel room, then a restaurant can't serve you with a clear conscience.

 

[Benvolio]

"First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me"...Martin Niemoller

Today it's a cake, tomorrow a motel room, then a restaurant can't serve you with a clear conscience.

And then they came for the bakers who wanted freedom of speech.
The oppressors here are not the bakers but those who want every detail of life, including the decorating of cakes, to be controlled by the government.

 

[MakeItTonite]

Wow... I know not that many folks have voted on this poll, but I'm really disappointed. :/

Why do you say that? Why are you so disappointed? It's a complex issue with heavy ramifications no matter how it turns out. That's just life.