So, what do you guys think about the possible mosque by ground zero

[Ryuukie]

America needs to practice what it preaches. The U.S. Constitution gives people the right to practice whatever religion they choose. It doesn't say except at Ground Zero.

Besides, 9/11 was the work of insane people. The Muslim religion didn't do it.

 

[levenshulme31]

I'd rather it wasn't built there or anywhere else. Not because I have any objections to a mosque being near the WTC site, I'd just rather people stopped believing medieval horseshit.

The day when ALL religion is consigned to another wing in a museum can't come fast enough.

 

[Críostóir]

Every time someone brings up the "yeah, let's see what happens if you try to build a church in Saudi Arabia" idiocy, I want to ask "Um, aren't we supposed to be better than them?"

Saudi Arabia is one of the most repressive regimes in the world. The House of Saud are scumbags, and I wish they would all drop dead, along with every single member of the religious police.

I feel the same way about the Christians in Uganda who are trying to pass laws making homosexuality punishable by death. They should all die.

But this is America. We're better than Saudi Arabia (who isn't?) and Uganda (ditto). We should be trying our best to live up to our ideals, the ones our young people are dying for in Afghanistan and Iraq. Religious freedom is one of those ideals.

Just because they CAN build it there, doesn't mean they should.

No, it doesn't necessarily follow. But there are good reasons to build it, and to build it there. There are lots of Muslims in that area, and lots of non-Muslims, and while New Yorkers got over most of the anti-Muslim fervor pretty quickly, there are still some tensions. This is far enough from the WTC site not to be in anyone's face (only New Yorkers really understand that, apparently: two blocks in Manhattan is a whole different neighborhood) but close enough that people might go there to learn about Muslim culture and history, and perhaps learn what those of us who knew Muslims even before 9/11 have always known: Al Qaeda and their ilk are considered outcast heretics in Islam.

You might find plenty about Islam that's objectionable, and so do I. But killing innocent people--even enemy noncombatants--is expressly forbidden in the Qur'an. Muslims are extremely reluctant to say "he's not a Muslim" about anyone, but all the Muslims I know are quite willing to say it about Osama bin Laden.

One of my father's graduate students told me that his reaction on 9/11 was "Oh, no, what are you doing to my country? What are you doing to my religion?" I think that says it right there.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

Let's just put it this way. If a group of Christian Fanatics were to fire bomb Mecca with a fuel air explosive or something and kill thousands of Muslim pilgrims; I would not just nine short years laters be encouraging a group of Christian activists (good or bad) to establish a Christian Church at the site of Ground Zero Mecca.

No logical reason to oppose either scenario, but I still think the wounds are a lttle too fresh for us to pretend that religion was not the fuel that ignited the fire.

It's perfectly constitutional to put a mosque on Ground Zero, but too soon and a bad idea nonetheless.

 

[MercuryJones]

Let's just put it this way. If a group of Christian Fanatics were to fire bomb Mecca with a fuel air explosive or something and kill thousands of Muslim pilgrims; I would not just nine short years laters be encouraging a group of Christian activists (good or bad) to establish a Christian Church at the site of Ground Zero Mecca.

NYC is not a Christian site of worship. It's a city.

It's perfectly constitutional to put a mosque on Ground Zero, but too soon and a bad idea nonetheless.

And it's not "on Ground Zero".

It's a few blocks away in a dense urban area, in a commercial space no one cared about until now.

 

[bankside]

There is no "sensitivity" that needs to be demonstrated by this group toward bigotry.

Clearly this group is not a branch of Al Quaida, or they would have been shut down and detained at Guantanamo. They are not responsible for flying airplanes into the buildings of New York, and if any person has evidence to the contrary, they should be making that evidence available to the authorities.

In short, this group have no case to answer, and if prejudiced people don't understand that, it is their problem. I wish them all the unnecessary discomfort and misery they volunteer to endure at the wrong end of their own dim comprehension of the facts.

I hope the group builds the centre, and I hope they build it taller.

I don't support the aims of this group. I would rather they built a planetarium or a research lab or something useful to humanity - even a brothel to be honest, but since it is not yet illegal to go against my whims and preferences, nothing should be done to stop it.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

Bulidins world a ova
just a buildins
fill with stooooooopid little men
what not even men
but stoooooooopid cretin morons
while world die
thousands ans thousnads buildins fill with stoooooooopid turdy little men world ova do nothin fa no one or planet but wear funny hats ans suits ans silly outfits

how long stoopid little men what turdy stoopid cretins wear silly oufits pretend a bes important ta nothing? 10000 years?

aint public betta anythin else do?

all da stoopid little cocks alls fill da stopppid univeristys world ova from every country planet

big sign on MOON GROW DA FUCK UP ya stoppid little turds of nothin ans get real job

right dat what a me think

FEMALES GET REAL! CLose ya legs fa 10 years Ya dos a know this 21st century not 5000BC

world fairys keep up da ya knows!

 

[CowboyBob]

Why is this even an issue? It's something the conservatives thought up to attract voters. Stop shitting on the American Constitution, Republicans!

 

[unclaimedblessing]

The construction may be legal and constitutional but it reflects an enormous insensitivity for the thousands of innocents butchered just a few city blocks away.

 

[MercuryJones]

The construction may be legal and constitutional but it reflects an enormous insensitivity for the thousands of innocents butchered just a few city blocks away.

Why?

Do you think gays shouldn't marry each other because it shows insensitivity to bigots?

 

[fetaby]

I blame reality tv. Everything has to include OTT drama.

 

[MercuryJones]

And two blocks in Manhattan is equivalent to about a mile anywhere else anyway.

And if this is such sacred ground, why not buy it up and turn it into a park or something?

If it's so sacred why did the GOP and some dems oppose providing for the first responders, many of whose lives are now in ruins because of effects from their service on the scene at 911?

It seems the sacred status of the area is limited to using it for to fundraise from bigots.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

NYC is not a Christian site of worship. It's a city.



And it's not "on Ground Zero".

It's a few blocks away in a dense urban area, in a commercial space no one cared about until now.

You are not listening to what I'm saying. I am NOT debating the logic or constitutionality of establishing a mosque so close this place of special significance. Nor do I wish to QUIBBLE about the exact spot that it might be located. This close and this soon is too close and too soon. I'm talking about the human sensitivity element here.

What I'm saying is it is not a good idea to place an islamic house of worship so close toa site where people people's relatives were massacred by Islamic extremists.

Again, if the situation were reversed and 9-11 happened in Mecca, perpetrated by Christian fanatics, I would hope that the Church of God In Christ would not rush to place a Christian church nearby. And nine years is rushing it.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

Bullshit.

Muslims didn't commit the terrorists actions of 9/11, terrorists did.

Did people in Oklahoma City need "time" to accept White Men after Timothy McVeigh? No.

Bigotry is bigotry. Period.

And two blocks in Manhattan is equivalent to about a mile anywhere else anyway.

Terrorists committed the acts of 9-11 alright, but THEY WERE MUSLIM terrorists. In this instance they WERE muslim terrorists. That's a fact that is not immaterial.

 

[BabiGayPimp]

The construction may be legal and constitutional but it reflects an enormous insensitivity for the thousands of innocents butchered just a few city blocks away.

This is what I'm saying. There are plenty of places to build a mosque. No need for it to it to go here, at this point in time.

Too close and too soon.

 

[MercuryJones]

I'm talking about the human sensitivity element here.

Respectfully, you are talking about bigot sensitivity, not human sensitivity. Many humans are just fine with this.

And bigots will always say minorities are being insensitive. They say it about gays all the time. We shouldn't marry, shouldn't have kids, shouldn't teach in school, shouldn't exist.

Again, if the situation were reversed and 9-11 happened in Mecca, perpetrated by Christian fanatics, I would hope that the Church of God In Christ would not rush to place a Christian church nearby. And nine years is rushing it.

But that's not the reverse. NYC isn't the reverse or equivalent of Mecca. Not in any way, shape or form.

I also don't think we should look to Saudi Arabia for how to live in a pluralistic culture with freedom of religion.

But if you want to compare, the US invaded and occupied Iraq for no good reason, then built the biggest US embassy ever there.

 

[MercuryJones]

Terrorists committed the acts of 9-11 alright, but THEY WERE MUSLIM terrorists. In this instance they WERE muslim terrorists. That's a fact that is not immaterial.

When Christian terrorists hit Oklahoma no one said Christians should stay away

And it's hard to know where Muslims are supposed to live and do business in the US. If 2 blocks is too close what's the correct distance? A mile? The city limits? Anywhere at all?

 

[fetaby]

Too close and too soon

Parallel?

It's too soon to repeal DADT, and too close to those it would affect.

Either you get all the rights in the constitution or none, your choice.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Terrorists committed the acts of 9-11 alright, but THEY WERE MUSLIM terrorists. In this instance they WERE muslim terrorists. That's a fact that is not immaterial.

So the mosque being built makes them guilty by association? Association with the actions of someone else, perhaps someone they never even met, nearly a decade earlier? Sounds to me like America has gone too fucking far with this boo hoo sensitivity bullshit. We have kids that can't read, grown adults who don't have a pot to piss in and we're crying because of a mosque? If this debacle doesn't prove how fucked up our priorities are in this country I don't know what will.

I forgot that all the freedoms granted by the constutuion don't apply to Muslims. (Or gays for that matter. )

 

[Críostóir]

Not only are most people fine with this, most NEW YORKERS are fine with this. People who narrowly escaped dying in 9/11 (such as myself) are fine with this.

Want to see what NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg had to say about it? Go here. Key quotes:

“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values and play into our enemies' hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that.

"For that reason, I believe that this is an important test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetimes, as important a test. And it is critically important that we get it right.

"On Sept. 11, 2001, thousands of first responders heroically rushed to the scene and saved tens of thousands of lives. More than 400 of those first responders did not make it out alive. In rushing into those burning buildings, not one of them asked, 'What God do you pray to?' (Bloomberg's voice cracks here a little as he gets choked up.) 'What beliefs do you hold?'

"The attack was an act of war, and our first responders defended not only our city, but our country and our constitution. We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights and the freedoms that the terrorists attacked.

"Of course, it is fair to ask the organizers of the mosque to show some special sensitivity to the situation, and in fact their plan envisions reaching beyond their walls and building an interfaith community. But doing so, it is my hope that the mosque will help to bring our city even closer together, and help repudiate the false and repugnant idea that the attacks of 9/11 were in any ways consistent with Islam.

That last is the real point here, and the reason the crazy right is fomenting outrage over this. If they stop being able to sell the idea that Islam is a religion of terrorism and murder, their whole political agenda will be severely impaired.

Also, they hope to use this as an election issue this fall. The sort-of-normal Republican running for the Congressional seat in Staten Island affirms the right of the Cordoba Initiative to build there, but says he "hopes" they'll decide not to. The crazy-ass Tea Party nutbar who's challenging him in the primary says he thinks Congress should pass a law declaring Lower Manhattan a Mosque-free zone.