You never directly answered the question. if you're gonna stand on the first amendment, you need to stand on it for everyone. if burning something meaningful like the American flag is constitionally protected free speech, why not a load of shit like the bible or koran? just words on a page. odious? most definitely, if only because, as General Petraeus has stated, this move endangers American troops lives. It's times like this I wish a real Jack McCoy were around to come up with a way to charge this pastor with treason on those grounds lol. Either that or a real life Dexter would come and take care of the problem. either way, like the Mosque, its technically legal, but still a really bad idea. My own challenge to myself as far as double standards go is if I'd have the same problem with an atheistic group doing the same thing...something I'll have to think about.
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So, what do you guys think about the possible mosque by ground zero
- Thread starter Zabotugi
- Start date
You never directly answered the question. if you're gonna stand on the first amendment, you need to stand on it for everyone. if burning something meaningful like the American flag is constitionally protected free speech, why not a load of shit like the bible or koran? just words on a page. odious? most definitely, if only because, as General Petraeus has stated, this move endangers American troops lives. It's times like this I wish a real Jack McCoy were around to come up with a way to charge this pastor with treason on those grounds lol. Either that or a real life Dexter would come and take care of the problem. either way, like the Mosque, its technically legal, but still a really bad idea. My own challenge to myself as far as double standards go is if I'd have the same problem with an atheistic group doing the same thing...something I'll have to think about.
i will take that bet
common sense and/or lack of funds will prevail
no thanks to bloomberg who would rather pay $100 million annually to teachers who don't have to even look for jobs
what do you expect from a mayor who changed term limits for himself
and got away with it
JB3
JUB Addict
No. Its freedom of speech, even if its stupid. You cannot pick and choose who you want to have the right to freedom of speech because you may or may not disagree with them.
BULLSHIT!
You and the "country hicks" you supposedly represent didn't even know about this community center that you continue to lie and call a "mosque", as Coventry does with "anchor babies" until after all the approvals were granted and building permits issued. Only then when FAUX News trumped it up did you know anything about it.
The people who live in NYC, and in that very neighborhood all signed off on it being built "Jack"! Your FAUX News didn't pick it up until AFTER it had been passed by both the zoning committee and city council which had a public comment period of time. Frankly, this Islamic community center isn't any of your fucking business, nor any other non-New York City resident living or working in lower downtown. You didn't lose anyone in 9/11 "Jack", and yet those that did lose people in 9/11 and live in NYC were in favor of this moving forward.
How hard is this for people to grasp?
BostonPirate
Ijubbinatti
burning a book is NOT freedom of speech. It is the exact opposite. Freedom of speech is answering the ideas of a book.
fuck it... lets all make a list of everyone in america... all the books that need to be burned, and we will pile them all on capital hill and burn the constitution with it.
How is burning a flag or an effigy or someone free speech but burning a book is not. You would object to my burning a copy of Mein Kampf to protest a neo nazi rally?
BostonPirate
Ijubbinatti
Indeed I would, and for one good reason. It is outlawed in Germany. It is a nationally censored book by one of the leading nations of the world. People's unwillingness to look into the mind of the monster who wrote it without feeling threatened is foolish. You read those books to know how Hitler happened, so that you can know when another like him is coming your way.
It isn't as fun or flashy as making a sign of President Obama in a nazi uniform, like the teabaggers do, but it is much more elightening as to what REALLY is fascism and HOW a dictator REALLY takes control of a nation Democratically.
Remember... Hitler was Elected and seized absolute power. He did not take over germany with a coup.
These are all the EXACT reasons books should NOT be burned ESPCIALLY in effigy.
Because the Effigy is Knowledge, nothing more. What someone does with the words is their responsibility, as is ours to respond to them if they do.
But to say that an entire idea needs to burn? that is censorship and it is restricting freedom of religion.
It was tried in the 60's to a great extent with burning crosses and synagogues.
Is this really a history we want to revisit? Well hold on to your hats boys and girls cause thanks to the whacko right conservative republican teabagggers, we are about to take a stroll down the memory lane of THAT time. And we have a date when it will begin.....
Saturday.
It isn't as fun or flashy as making a sign of President Obama in a nazi uniform, like the teabaggers do, but it is much more elightening as to what REALLY is fascism and HOW a dictator REALLY takes control of a nation Democratically.
Remember... Hitler was Elected and seized absolute power. He did not take over germany with a coup.
These are all the EXACT reasons books should NOT be burned ESPCIALLY in effigy.
Because the Effigy is Knowledge, nothing more. What someone does with the words is their responsibility, as is ours to respond to them if they do.
But to say that an entire idea needs to burn? that is censorship and it is restricting freedom of religion.
It was tried in the 60's to a great extent with burning crosses and synagogues.
Is this really a history we want to revisit? Well hold on to your hats boys and girls cause thanks to the whacko right conservative republican teabagggers, we are about to take a stroll down the memory lane of THAT time. And we have a date when it will begin.....
Saturday.
JB3
JUB Addict
Uh, no. Just no. Book burning, no matter how abhorrent and how ignorant, is just as much freedom of speech as is you expressing your opinion on this forum.
Just because you disagree with it doesn't mean that it isn't freedom of speech.
BostonPirate
Ijubbinatti
Burning an object is not speaking... it is an action. It cannot be speech. Freedom perhaps, but NOT SPEECH.
uuugh
it EXPRESSES something and intentionally draws danger to our troops. Is this what we will have again if the republicans take over? More of the same BS that made the USA the pariah of the world for 8 years?
There are already thousands protesting the burning in jakarta outside our embassy there and the burning hasn't even happened yet.
the whole thing is pathetic and shows how far down america has slid in civility and reason.
That someone needs to have this discussion is the worst part at this point.
BostonPirate
Ijubbinatti
It could be an act of sex for all I care. it's stupid for sooo many reasons.
Censorship is what it is.
Censorship is what it is.
BostonPirate
Ijubbinatti
lol
what a merry go round
when common sense no longer matters the burnings will begin.
well he's right, that would be censorship.
Freedom of speech means you are also free to make an ass of yourself.
Doesn't mean the action shouldn't still be condemned.
However I don't think it should be made illegal.
BostonPirate
Ijubbinatti
I am not advocating making it illegal. I am using my freedom of speech to advocate AGAINST it.
It is a simple little process.
If they get to make the world less safe for americans by pulling a stunt like this, I get to let the world know exactly what I think of it. What I think of book burning is simple.
if you can't argue against an idea, as I have in this thread, then you just strike a match and have the flame do your work for you.
it is a statement on just how fucked up and pathetic the people doing it are.
we all clear now on freedom of speech, or shall I write a full length dissertation on what I think of book burning?
It is a simple little process.
If they get to make the world less safe for americans by pulling a stunt like this, I get to let the world know exactly what I think of it. What I think of book burning is simple.
if you can't argue against an idea, as I have in this thread, then you just strike a match and have the flame do your work for you.
it is a statement on just how fucked up and pathetic the people doing it are.
we all clear now on freedom of speech, or shall I write a full length dissertation on what I think of book burning?
JB3
JUB Addict
No, it most certainly is not censorship. It might be censorship if they forbade muslims from practicing their faith or expressing their ideas, but they're not.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding about what this means and what it is.
BostonPirate
Ijubbinatti
JB3
JUB Addict
No, because quite frankly after your continued assertion that book burning amounts to censorship, I'm not sure many people here would care.
I really don't care what you think at this point on this issue; this pastor, misguided as he is, is expressing his freedom of speech in regards to his opinion of Islam. Is it hateful and bigoted? Absolutely. Is it wrong? Yes. Is he entitled to do it? Absolutely.
Michael Bloomberg actually said it quite well: http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/news/bel...pastor-right-to-burn-koran-newscore-201000907
BostonPirate
Ijubbinatti
well good neither one of us gives a shit what the other one thinks.
How american
I guess that means we have nothing more to say to each other on the topic
How american
I guess that means we have nothing more to say to each other on the topic
JB3
JUB Addict
I understand the meaning of burning books. I also understand that it is far more complicated than you are trying to portray, and in no way amounts to censorship.
The mere fact that this has been condemned by everyone not associated with this tiny church, including people that would be at a polar end politically to you (like Sarah Palin), should tell you that this is in no way similar to the book burnings of the most insidious parts of history. Those incidents were met with cheering; this is being met with disdain.
How is burning a book any different than burning a flag? or burning an effigy of a person you don't like? I wasn't suggesting collect every copy of Mein Kampf and burn them all, simply go buy 1 and burn it and a Swatstika flag in front of them to show what I think about them and their views (and remember flag burning is a Constitutionally protected right). Not sure but sounds like you have the same view of this Koran burning as my side does of the Mosque. Technicially legal and a constitutional right? yes (although as I think I said in a previous post I'm all for a creative federal prosecutor arguing that by engaging activities that endanger the lives of our troops in combat, this pastor is technically guilty of treason). Is it a good idea and should it happen? in both cases most definitely not.
How is burning a book any different than burning a flag or an effigy of a person (both recognized as constitutionally protected speech)? I'm not suggesting in my hypothetical neo nazi rally example that we launch a concerted effort to find all copies of Mein Kampf and destroy them, but go by 1 copy and hold it alight in one hand while holding a burning swastika flag in the other to show those bastards what I think of them.
I think however you may be arguing what I and others opposed to the Mosque have, which is that its technically legal and consitutional (although as I said earlier, I'm all for a creative federal prosecutor saying this act endangers the lives of our troops and combat and is therefore treason), but a really really shitty idea.
I think however you may be arguing what I and others opposed to the Mosque have, which is that its technically legal and consitutional (although as I said earlier, I'm all for a creative federal prosecutor saying this act endangers the lives of our troops and combat and is therefore treason), but a really really shitty idea.