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yeah, and three "Budweiser Classics."
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** Star Trek **
- Thread starter GL
- Start date
yeah, and three "Budweiser Classics."
Apollo
Do you lick pussy?
JJ made an alternate timeline so he could do anything. He didn't want to get stuck having to make a movie to a lot of what has already happened. The other original storyline still exist, but this one exists in an alternate form, so they can have creative freedom to essentially do what they want.
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SPOILER ALERT WITH NO HIGHLIGHTS. SPOILAGE, SPOILAGE, SPOILAGE.
I saw the movie Monday morning with my boyfriend. We both enjoyed it. I also found myself tearing up here and there (and resenting the heck out of that).
I watched at least some of all of the Trek series and all of the movies. I saw the finale of Voyager (after having skipped some shows in the last season), and I watched quite a bit of ENTERPRISE (which I really liked) although I didn't see the end of the season.
I'm a "continuity geek," that is, I'm right there with all the folks who want to see everything in any "long arc" story (Marvel comics, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. etc.) fit together consistently. I have not watched LOST, but I know that there's at least one guy in the LOST production team who's job it is to keep everything "straight."
When it comes to TREK, this presents a very sticky problem. Since Rodenberry et al weren't looking at the "long view" when they started the series, and maybe even when they started up with the movies, they probably wrote themselves into some pretty tight spots, and with ten total movies and another four series beyond that really compounding the problem. (Most famously, perhaps, the dilemma of "why did the Klingons not look like they had horseshoe crabs on their foreheads during the time of the original series? They tried working this problem out in DS9 and I think in Enterprise, but I have always thought it was a big problem).
OK, now, for the record -- I enjoyed/liked the movie!
That being said, here goes:
I thought the McCoy character looked a little too much like former democratic presidential candidate John Edwards. Other than that, I liked him.
I liked all of the characters.
In terms of the coherence/incoherence of the "science" part of the fiction, I think that thefovl's points are right on. Back to that in a second.
Timeline: I think this movie only makes sense in terms of the rest of the "Trek" materials if A. you accept that when Nero (or Nemo or whoever) and his tatooed Romulans comes back through time right when J.T. Kirk is being born, this alters the timeline in some irrevocable way (consistent with GL's point in post #30 and Killjoke in #31, M-N-H in #32, and AGayMale in #36, Jrun in #40, BlueDragon #46). Of course, this all might "go away" if, as NeoSlacker suggests, it's "an alternate reality" and not "an alternate timeline" (which, exactly what the differences are between realities and timelines are/is is sort of beyond me, but I'm sure that all the great minds on the TrekForums have this all figured out).
Further, I think the movie really only makes sense if "SpockPrime" understands this immediately and decides to move forward saying "the hell with the Prime Directive in all its forms" (for instance, giving Scotty the equation for warping onto a moving ship years before he would have come up with it by himself).
Hotatlboy points out some of the problems that this re-arrangement brings up; for instance, Kirk and Spock meet much earlier than they "originally" did. Did the "original" Spock actually write the "original" 'Kobiyashi Maaru' scenario? If the advent of Nero actually changes the timeline so dramatically, how come EVERYTHING isn't totally different? You can only get out of this if you have a "chaos theory" that posits 'strong attractors' that pull people and events into "more or less" stable orbits so that things happen sort of, but not exactly, the same, with some randomness thrown in, rather than exploding into pure randomness. Of course, any "science" behind this would be WAY BEYOND ME.
So anyway, SpockPrime recognizes that some things are going to be different beyond fixing, while others will be kind of the same. Because he knows that his future is now irretrievable, he does what he thinks he can to make the current situation as workable as possible. He gives Scotty the equation; he tells Kirk "I'm emotionally compromised, and he is too, and you have to get him to show that." In the meantime, Vulcan gets destroyed, his mom gets killed, etc. No going back.
As many people have pointed out, what that allows is, now Abrams and crew can write scripts where the characters are consistent/parallel with the old series and movies, but the situations they encounter will be different. And, I will probably go and see those movies like I went and saw this one, and I will probably enjoy them like I enjoyed this one.
BUT... This will continue to bother me: Beginning (I think) in Voyager, and continuing into Enterprise (as a major story arc element), a "future" Federation is involved, that has time travel capability, as well as a "Temporal Prime Directive" (don't mess with the timeline). Thus, we had that wimpy whiner, Cpt. Braxton, showing up and telling Cpt. Janeway, "now hold your ship still while I blow it up!" because she was out of her correct timeline, as well as agents from the future helping out Jonathan Archer against timeline-altering baddies. We know that these future Federationistas have the ability to interact with the timeline in times before the timeframe of this movie, because they worked during the ENTERPRISE time-frame.
Wouldn't these folks have showed up just when [STRIKE]Nemo[/STRIKE] Nero first popped out and blasted him, thus keeping the whole sequence of events from happening?
Thus: Alternate REALITY vs. alternate TIMELINE.
Second big line of ranting: SpockPrime. I thought there was way too much SpockPrime. I think Nimoy must be sort of beyond being able to get into the material as he could "in his prime." (This sort of makes sense, though, in terms of a character who, in old age, has finally worked out some of his "Vulcan vs. Human" conflicts, and is sort of mellow, humane, and self-directed.) As pointed out in the article that GSDX referred us to, there has always been plenty of cheese in the Trek Franchise. It has always seemed to me that part of the problem that began showing up by late in the TNG game, and certainly in the original cast moviews, is that the Trek industry began to seriously overplay cheesy things that Trek fans had come to expect. "They loved it before! Let's do it again! See how they react with excitement when they see something they've seen before!" Personally, I blame Jonathan Frakes... but that's not really the point at the moment.
I think that Nimoy Spock just carried too much of this into the movie. I actually groaned when he said, "I have always been and will always be your friend."
Supposing that Nimoy really is a bit aged to engage seriously with stuff that's "beyond" his off-screen personality, I think that brings us to something that many have identified as kind of a problem with the movie: the "Red Matter."
Now, for those of us who love technobabble, could we get more dissapointing than the "Red Matter"? WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? "It's Matter. It's Red. Get it? Red Matter? It hangs out in a big red globe." I mean, seriously, you can't come up with something that sounds more "sciency" than RED MATTER? Well, maybe that makes sense if Nimoy can no longer pronounce phrases like "chronoton particles" or "antigraviton displacement" or whatever.
Spock brings back this big glob of Red Matter from the future (how was it he got from the future to the past? [HotAtlBoy again -- now, that exploding star didn't wipe out half the galaxy, it just et up Romulus]. And how did [STRIKE]Nematode[/STRIKE] Nero do that?). You can extract this tiny glob and make a bitty-black-hole that's just small enough to swallow a planet (that there are singularities that small does not seem to be out of the question for current day cosmologists; it's an idea that's been kicking around for a while). As Piggy pointed out, though, wouldn't the whole glob eat up at least an entire galactic quadrant? "Here, feed it the warp core, and it might blast us away!" The origins, characteristics, and uses of this stuff are to me one of the biggest "problems" with the film (well, that and the scene that Syntax70 pointed out, where the giant tropical Preying Mantis thing tries to eat Kirk on the frozen wasteland planet, from which you can see Vulcan, before SpockPrime scares it away with a torch and then they go find Scotty with his dog-boy friend).
I think that the "red matter" stuff is reference to "red mercury," an apparently mythical substance that is rumored to be useful in making big bad bombs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mercury
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/chemicalweapons/f/blredmercury.htm
"Well, if we have simply named mythical super-substances in the current time, we can have them in the future, right?"
(I also think that the mythical "red mercury" harkens back to alchemy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element) ),
So: 1. Timeline/alternate reality considerations.
2. Old Spock is Old. Red Matter is goofy.
others: I have for a long time thought that Shatner was wearing a girdle during most of the original series. Thus, I thought it was appropriate that Chris Pine is not exactly a skinny guy.
I can't find who it was who said they thought that Quinto's Spock lacked some of the focus/energy of Nimoy's early work in the series, but I kind of agree. I had a bit of a hard time separating him from the "bad guy/Sylar" effect.
I liked the movie overall, it's fun action, fun peeps. If they try and un-destroy Vulcan later, or even if they bring back Spock's Mom, though, I'll be kind of pissed.
I saw the movie Monday morning with my boyfriend. We both enjoyed it. I also found myself tearing up here and there (and resenting the heck out of that).
I watched at least some of all of the Trek series and all of the movies. I saw the finale of Voyager (after having skipped some shows in the last season), and I watched quite a bit of ENTERPRISE (which I really liked) although I didn't see the end of the season.
I'm a "continuity geek," that is, I'm right there with all the folks who want to see everything in any "long arc" story (Marvel comics, Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. etc.) fit together consistently. I have not watched LOST, but I know that there's at least one guy in the LOST production team who's job it is to keep everything "straight."
When it comes to TREK, this presents a very sticky problem. Since Rodenberry et al weren't looking at the "long view" when they started the series, and maybe even when they started up with the movies, they probably wrote themselves into some pretty tight spots, and with ten total movies and another four series beyond that really compounding the problem. (Most famously, perhaps, the dilemma of "why did the Klingons not look like they had horseshoe crabs on their foreheads during the time of the original series? They tried working this problem out in DS9 and I think in Enterprise, but I have always thought it was a big problem).
OK, now, for the record -- I enjoyed/liked the movie!
That being said, here goes:
I thought the McCoy character looked a little too much like former democratic presidential candidate John Edwards. Other than that, I liked him.
I liked all of the characters.
In terms of the coherence/incoherence of the "science" part of the fiction, I think that thefovl's points are right on. Back to that in a second.
Timeline: I think this movie only makes sense in terms of the rest of the "Trek" materials if A. you accept that when Nero (or Nemo or whoever) and his tatooed Romulans comes back through time right when J.T. Kirk is being born, this alters the timeline in some irrevocable way (consistent with GL's point in post #30 and Killjoke in #31, M-N-H in #32, and AGayMale in #36, Jrun in #40, BlueDragon #46). Of course, this all might "go away" if, as NeoSlacker suggests, it's "an alternate reality" and not "an alternate timeline" (which, exactly what the differences are between realities and timelines are/is is sort of beyond me, but I'm sure that all the great minds on the TrekForums have this all figured out).
Further, I think the movie really only makes sense if "SpockPrime" understands this immediately and decides to move forward saying "the hell with the Prime Directive in all its forms" (for instance, giving Scotty the equation for warping onto a moving ship years before he would have come up with it by himself).
Hotatlboy points out some of the problems that this re-arrangement brings up; for instance, Kirk and Spock meet much earlier than they "originally" did. Did the "original" Spock actually write the "original" 'Kobiyashi Maaru' scenario? If the advent of Nero actually changes the timeline so dramatically, how come EVERYTHING isn't totally different? You can only get out of this if you have a "chaos theory" that posits 'strong attractors' that pull people and events into "more or less" stable orbits so that things happen sort of, but not exactly, the same, with some randomness thrown in, rather than exploding into pure randomness. Of course, any "science" behind this would be WAY BEYOND ME.
So anyway, SpockPrime recognizes that some things are going to be different beyond fixing, while others will be kind of the same. Because he knows that his future is now irretrievable, he does what he thinks he can to make the current situation as workable as possible. He gives Scotty the equation; he tells Kirk "I'm emotionally compromised, and he is too, and you have to get him to show that." In the meantime, Vulcan gets destroyed, his mom gets killed, etc. No going back.
As many people have pointed out, what that allows is, now Abrams and crew can write scripts where the characters are consistent/parallel with the old series and movies, but the situations they encounter will be different. And, I will probably go and see those movies like I went and saw this one, and I will probably enjoy them like I enjoyed this one.
BUT... This will continue to bother me: Beginning (I think) in Voyager, and continuing into Enterprise (as a major story arc element), a "future" Federation is involved, that has time travel capability, as well as a "Temporal Prime Directive" (don't mess with the timeline). Thus, we had that wimpy whiner, Cpt. Braxton, showing up and telling Cpt. Janeway, "now hold your ship still while I blow it up!" because she was out of her correct timeline, as well as agents from the future helping out Jonathan Archer against timeline-altering baddies. We know that these future Federationistas have the ability to interact with the timeline in times before the timeframe of this movie, because they worked during the ENTERPRISE time-frame.
Wouldn't these folks have showed up just when [STRIKE]Nemo[/STRIKE] Nero first popped out and blasted him, thus keeping the whole sequence of events from happening?
Thus: Alternate REALITY vs. alternate TIMELINE.
Second big line of ranting: SpockPrime. I thought there was way too much SpockPrime. I think Nimoy must be sort of beyond being able to get into the material as he could "in his prime." (This sort of makes sense, though, in terms of a character who, in old age, has finally worked out some of his "Vulcan vs. Human" conflicts, and is sort of mellow, humane, and self-directed.) As pointed out in the article that GSDX referred us to, there has always been plenty of cheese in the Trek Franchise. It has always seemed to me that part of the problem that began showing up by late in the TNG game, and certainly in the original cast moviews, is that the Trek industry began to seriously overplay cheesy things that Trek fans had come to expect. "They loved it before! Let's do it again! See how they react with excitement when they see something they've seen before!" Personally, I blame Jonathan Frakes... but that's not really the point at the moment.
I think that Nimoy Spock just carried too much of this into the movie. I actually groaned when he said, "I have always been and will always be your friend."
Supposing that Nimoy really is a bit aged to engage seriously with stuff that's "beyond" his off-screen personality, I think that brings us to something that many have identified as kind of a problem with the movie: the "Red Matter."
Now, for those of us who love technobabble, could we get more dissapointing than the "Red Matter"? WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? "It's Matter. It's Red. Get it? Red Matter? It hangs out in a big red globe." I mean, seriously, you can't come up with something that sounds more "sciency" than RED MATTER? Well, maybe that makes sense if Nimoy can no longer pronounce phrases like "chronoton particles" or "antigraviton displacement" or whatever.
Spock brings back this big glob of Red Matter from the future (how was it he got from the future to the past? [HotAtlBoy again -- now, that exploding star didn't wipe out half the galaxy, it just et up Romulus]. And how did [STRIKE]Nematode[/STRIKE] Nero do that?). You can extract this tiny glob and make a bitty-black-hole that's just small enough to swallow a planet (that there are singularities that small does not seem to be out of the question for current day cosmologists; it's an idea that's been kicking around for a while). As Piggy pointed out, though, wouldn't the whole glob eat up at least an entire galactic quadrant? "Here, feed it the warp core, and it might blast us away!" The origins, characteristics, and uses of this stuff are to me one of the biggest "problems" with the film (well, that and the scene that Syntax70 pointed out, where the giant tropical Preying Mantis thing tries to eat Kirk on the frozen wasteland planet, from which you can see Vulcan, before SpockPrime scares it away with a torch and then they go find Scotty with his dog-boy friend).
I think that the "red matter" stuff is reference to "red mercury," an apparently mythical substance that is rumored to be useful in making big bad bombs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_mercury
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/chemicalweapons/f/blredmercury.htm
"Well, if we have simply named mythical super-substances in the current time, we can have them in the future, right?"
(I also think that the mythical "red mercury" harkens back to alchemy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element) ),
So: 1. Timeline/alternate reality considerations.
2. Old Spock is Old. Red Matter is goofy.
others: I have for a long time thought that Shatner was wearing a girdle during most of the original series. Thus, I thought it was appropriate that Chris Pine is not exactly a skinny guy.
I can't find who it was who said they thought that Quinto's Spock lacked some of the focus/energy of Nimoy's early work in the series, but I kind of agree. I had a bit of a hard time separating him from the "bad guy/Sylar" effect.
I liked the movie overall, it's fun action, fun peeps. If they try and un-destroy Vulcan later, or even if they bring back Spock's Mom, though, I'll be kind of pissed.
The answer to that question is quite simple, really, and Spock would be proud of the logic behind it.
Gene Roddenberry wanted all his of guest stars to remain 'recognizable' by the viewing audience.
a large black hole a black hole is a quantum singularity which is amazingly small lol
But the event horizon can be amazingly large.
The issue of the temporal prime directive/future federation stuff... They did not involve themselves in any of the TOS time travel events, including the whole whale stuff in Star Trek IV "the voyage home." So either those were "supposed" to happen or they got by them. No one straightened out the time incursions in VOY's "year of hell" except janeway. no one did anything about braxton's ship going back to earth who's ship being found caused the computer/microprocessor revolution of the 1980s to occurr. perhaps most glaring is that no one stopped "admiral janeway" from going back in time in VOY finally to get Voyager home decades earlier. so it would seem to me to stand to reason that the future time travel folks are not always on top of everything.
i have no problem with this being an alternate timeline that we are now "stuck with."
i have no problem with this being an alternate timeline that we are now "stuck with."
If we are talking science here and not sci-fi, the correct term would be "gravitational singularity". "Quantum singularity" is a sci-fi term for a theoretical anomaly that involves time travel somehow.
In reality, a gravitational singularity is located at the center of a black hole, and it is infinitesimally small and with infinite density. As you extend outward from that, matter has a finite density and gravity gradually reduces in influence. The event horizon is the border at which gravity has lessened in influence enough that photons are no longer held in place and can escape, which is why you see only beyond the event horizon.
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i have no problem with this being an alternate timeline that we are now "stuck with."
MnH, very nice summary of various un-corrected temporal stream shenanigans. Since the whole "temporal prime directive" thing really came to the fore during Voyager, I remember noticing that Janeway was getting away with the "bring the ship home early" move, although I do remember that wimpy weakling Cpt. Braxton harassing them 2-3 times total before they made it back to the Alpha Quadrant.)
Actually, I don't have a lot of problem with it either.
...I was thinking about my reactions to this kind of thing, and I realized that in a certain way I was "put out" with the original canon when they brought Spock back from the dead the first time in the movies. Granted, the movie in which they did that was one of the "superior" Stark Trek movies. Nevertheless, it left a "can't you guys decide what you want to do?" taste in my mouth.
(There's plenty out there about the evolving ambivalence of various "stars" from TOS about their embeddedness in the Trek-verse. Nimoy's star shines bright in this respect. First he Was Not Spock, then he Was Spock, and I guess he pretty much decided to stay that way. I remember convention stories from the late '70's about him throwing up on the front row of con-talk audiences, and there are a couple of film clips of him doing interviews back in the day when, to me, he is clearly Tripping Balls.
(When Spock Prime was introducing himself to Pine-Kirk, instead of saying, "I am and always have been your friend," I think it would completely have done the trick to instead of have said something much more understated, like, "Actually, I've been friends with you for a while." Everyone would have gotten it, and it wouldn't have been so damn obvious.
see! there are ways around the 'no shouting through caps via the vFilterthingy!
Just as long as the new and younger Shatn. . . I mean 'Kirk' doesn't go booting around the galaxy trying to Americanize every planet and alien civilization he comes across.
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The best thing though, is that they've conceded that all of the so-called canon events from TOS still remain, and that the adventures that the TOS crew encountered are available to the new crew. Khan is still out there, as is the Doomsday Machine planet killer, not to mention NOMAD.
So we're stuck with the extra long, extra glitzy Enterprise and her hot new crew. Agreed - no problem.
And I especially am attracted to the idea that once you have conceded that "things are kind of the same, but at the same time, somewhat different," you can riff in all kinds of ways.
Edward Twinkletoes
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I still haven't seen this and I guess I can reserve judgment of it until I have but what little bit I've heard had not left me with a very good impression of it. I just don't like the idea.
i was also reminded while watching an episode of enterprise last ngiht that then entire Xini arc was not supposed to have happened according to the time guy, but they didn't stop it. nor did they stop ncc-1701-e from going back in "first contact."
MawellEvans
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bluedragon4
JUB Addict
Oh, stop. LOL. That Chris Pine is mighty pretty. That's all that matters.
Saw it again. 
i liked it more the second time. although the time to run and go pee is definitely when kirk is on the ice planet running from the monsters. but gotta do it quick so you're back "in time" for you know who.
i liked it more the second time. although the time to run and go pee is definitely when kirk is on the ice planet running from the monsters. but gotta do it quick so you're back "in time" for you know who.