State Sponsored Homophobia: World Homosexuality Laws

[kallipolis]

I already explained why South Africa is an interesting exception, and the maps are very clearly illustrative of British intervention in Africa. They are not merely "pretty."

You just completely ignore every point of external evidence I offer or just call it silly because you don't like the conclusion that it draws.

And you, like DreamTeam, are participating in a gay rights thread with the sole purpose of defending your fellow Europeans from unflattering facts, and no other reason. You are not even motivated to find out facts and research of your own, just to react to something that reflects poorly on a European country. This fact is thrown into high relief because you, like him, do not participate in these threads to contribute on current LGBT events or discuss our legal rights. [Text: Removed]

South Africa is the exception that disproves your bizarre theorising...that South Africa can emulate the legislation, of its former colonial administrator, the United Kingdom evidences that Uganda, Kenya, and Nigeria can follow suit...except, that these three countries have for their own reasons decided to continue discriminating against gays...don't blame the British for they have progressed sufficiently to have set an example that South Africa has followed.

Next you'll be blaming the British for enforcing the English language on what has become the United States...it's all the fault of the United Kingdom that Americans speak English....when clearly French would have been a much more progressive language.

 

[kallipolis]

Um, I've spoken to Melanie Nathan, the SF based attorney doing most of the work on coordinating LGBT groups in the US with those in Africa, as well as Frank Mugisha the leader of SMUG. They agree with me that the root of this is a British problem. [Text: Removed]



We need William Hague to open his mouth and put a stop to this.

Never heard of these people...clearly they need to travel beyond the United States and learn little about the cultures in Africa.

In answer to your question I have visited South Africa, and Kenya for holidays....and I am certain that the former colonial power in Uganda, Kenya, and Nigeria has already communicated its disapproval to the respective governments....I rather believe that Bill Hague has much more important matters on his plate to deal with such as Syria, and Ukraine...

 

[TX-Beau]

Um, I've spoken to Melanie Nathan, the SF based attorney doing most of the work on coordinating LGBT groups in the US with those in Africa, as well as Frank Mugisha the leader of SMUG. They agree with me that the root of this is a British problem. [Text: Removed]



We need William Hague to open his mouth and put a stop to this.

Seriously, do you honestly think anyone cares about this argument but us? I don't need your opinions on anything. You are an anonymous avatar relying evidently on the credibility of other people you purport to know.

Relax. this isn't relevant to anything at all. This conversation will simply fade into the net and no one will miss it.

 

[palbert]

....

Relax. this isn't relevant to anything at all. This conversation will simply fade into the net and no one will miss it.

This discussion needs to fade into the net. It is wholly dependent on some type of historical imperative argument and totally obfuscates the dire issue at hand.

And saying Hague should do something is akin to arguing white man's burden.

I don't care if Martians colonized these countries. They aren't there now so some enlightenment is in order.

 

[Callum]

Damn it, guys. We now know "state sponsored homophobia" exists in former British colonies because they speak English! Everything has been illuminated!

God bless logic. I 100% agree with palbert in post #113.

 

[Alnitak]

And you are having a tantrum and name dropping on a porn site.

Name dropping is the white flag of a lost argument.

Believe me. You're nothing to me compared to everyone I know directly involved with African LGBT advocacy and know the issues at hand. In fact the only interaction I've had with you at all lately has been sort of this nagging contrarianism you get from the typical Internet troll. I'm not the only one who has noticed this either...

Never heard of these people...clearly they need to travel beyond the United States and learn little about the cultures in Africa.

In answer to your question I have visited South Africa, and Kenya for holidays....and I am certain that the former colonial power in Uganda, Kenya, and Nigeria has already communicated its disapproval to the respective governments....I rather believe that Bill Hague has much more important matters on his plate to deal with such as Syria, and Ukraine...

[Text: Removed]

Melanie Nathan and Frank Mugisha are from Africa.

Mugisha runs the only gay rights organization in Uganda. It is a secret location because of threats to his life. Unless you are very trusted by third parties you cannot even get a phone conversation with him.

Seriously, do you honestly think anyone cares about this argument but us? I don't need your opinions on anything. You are an anonymous avatar relying evidently on the credibility of other people you purport to know.

Relax. this isn't relevant to anything at all. This conversation will simply fade into the net and no one will miss it.

If it isn't relevant, then why is it the reason you all are participating in this thread?

I agree it isn't all that relevant, [Text: Removed]

It certainly isn't 'unflattering facts' that have got my back up here. Its the unwarranted lie, BASED on unflattering facts that is the issue of my grievance here.

You think the UK can wash its hands of this and walk away but you're wrong.

I totally get that you want to save your national pride, but since you have not offered any evidence to support your claims they are doomed to not even be worth talking about.

 

[Alnitak]

Pope Francis To Visit Uganda To Honor Martyrs Who Refused Sex With Gay King

"King Mwanga II kept many young men at his constant beck and call, and executed those who refused his advances — a precursor to Grindr’s block button.

Here’s where the pope comes in. This all happened just after the Catholics had arrived, and part of what enraged the king was that the missionaries clearly didn’t support any gay goings on."

And yet the first missionaries to Uganda were Anglicans in 1877. Where is Archbishop Welby?

 

[Kulindahr]

In Uganda's case alone, the US is more to blame than Britain, since its crazy preachers from your country exporting religious extremism in that land. But we don't blame the US, we blame the crazy preachers. You are choosing to blame the British because of a page in history in ignorance of what the truth actually is today. Blame should be given where its due, and in most African nations circumstances, religious bigotry and a lack of education are by far the biggest faults.

In Uganda's case it goes right back to Britain, which is where the strain of Christianity those American preachers come from arose -- Puritanism.

The real strain through all of this isn't being British, it's being Puritan. The difference between the former British colonies in terms of tolerance today or adhering to (or building on) the old British law is simply a matter of how much the Puritan arrogance and self-righteousness infected things. Where the Puritan infection dominated, they're still very anti-gay, but where it faced competition, they aren't. And where it came to Africa from America, it came with the same Puritan heritage.

The French never had the Puritan problem, nor did the Portugese -- so their former colonies don't have this virulent infection of self-righteousness and bigotry.

 

[Kulindahr]

Pope Francis To Visit Uganda To Honor Martyrs Who Refused Sex With Gay King

"King Mwanga II kept many young men at his constant beck and call, and executed those who refused his advances — a precursor to Grindr’s block button.

Here’s where the pope comes in. This all happened just after the Catholics had arrived, and part of what enraged the king was that the missionaries clearly didn’t support any gay goings on."

And yet the first missionaries to Uganda were Anglicans in 1877. Where is Archbishop Welby?

How about a timeline with what Christians showed up in Uganda when?

 

[palbert]

Many postings in this thread make me mindful of the additional posting guidelines for CE&P:

COURTESY & RESPECT

When debating, express your opinion about a person's ideas, not about them personally. Any post containing a direct personal insult will be removed or edited, regardless of the content of the rest of the post.

Do not engage in baiting; either creating threads for that purpose, or in posts toward other members. Do not disrupt the flow of conversation by making statements or insinuations that are deliberately inflammatory or which expand a disagreement from one discussion to another.

Never insult or impugn the character of another Jubber through posts, threads, PMs, or comments. If you find yourself having difficulty refraining from insulting, baiting or other negative impulses, please log off for a while to calm down.

 

[pat grimshaw]

….

It's the Brits and their mess....

Map from…. www.thelatinlibrary.com/imperialism/maps/britishempire

The Latin Library has a rather expansive view of the British Empire in the US, about which the French and Spanish might have had something to say.

 

[Kulindahr]

Ok, my final word on this. Here is the wiki listing for Sierra Leone:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Sierra_Leone

You'll notice that it clearly states that the sodomy laws were inherited from the British, yet it is seldom if ever enforced, and that female-female sex is legal.

So if Sierra Leone (just like South Africa) can tolerate homosexuality to the point where they 'seldom if ever enforce it', why can't others?

You can repeat your assertions about British responsibility as much as you like, and you can name as many contacts within LGBT organizations that you like who happen to share your views, [Text: Removed]

I don't get your problem here. I can't figure out if you're just arguing for the sake of arguing, or can't actually grasp simple logic, or are just being stubborn, or what.

Your reasoning here is akin to noting that some trees I planted didn't survive through the winter and concluding that therefore I'm not responsible for the trees being there.

 

[opinterph]

I have years of experience on this site and elsewhere researching LGBT issues worldwide

What were the source, reasoning, and/or motivation behind Britain’s move to include the prohibition of homosexual acts in its Section 377 penal code?

 

[Kulindahr]

What were the source, reasoning, and/or motivation behind Britain’s move to include the prohibition of homosexual acts in its Section 377 penal code?

Now THAT is an interesting question!

This bit from Wikipedia is somewhat helpful:

In summary, the British anti-buggery law was enacted in 1534, taking over from ecclesiastical law. The wording used, which included "abominable" (taken from the book of Leviticus in the Old Testament), "buggery" (which, by the 13th century, had become associated with sodomy), and "vice", confirms its religious character.[1] age: 2 It was formulated in the context of King Henry VIII's break from papal authority to establish the Anglican church. Its purpose was to justify the seizure of Catholic monasteries and the confiscation of their other wealthy properties. The pretext was the alleged sexual immorality of those in the religious vocation. Without this anti-Catholic agenda, it seems unlikely that it would have been enacted.[

I wouldn't have expected it to arise from politics . . . but then this doesn't actually tell us how it got into the colonial code.

 

[opinterph]

3. This alien legacy: the origins of ‘sodomy’ laws in British colonialism

(Human Rights Watch; 2008; Readers are strongly encouraged to also consult the original full report, available online from Human Rights Watch here.)​

377 and the Unnatural Afterlife of British Colonialism in Asia

(Asian Journal of Comparative Law; 2009)​

 

[Kulindahr]

3. This alien legacy: the origins of ‘sodomy’ laws in British colonialism

(Human Rights Watch; 2008; Readers are strongly encouraged to also consult the original full report, available online from Human Rights Watch here.)​

377 and the Unnatural Afterlife of British Colonialism in Asia

(Asian Journal of Comparative Law; 2009)​

Um, your "here" link takes us to a JUB thread . . . .

 

[Kulindahr]

3. This alien legacy: the origins of ‘sodomy’ laws in British colonialism

(Human Rights Watch; 2008; Readers are strongly encouraged to also consult the original full report, available online from Human Rights Watch here.)​

377 and the Unnatural Afterlife of British Colonialism in Asia

(Asian Journal of Comparative Law; 2009)​

Wow. It's a good thing the original version didn't get in; it could have really given the Ugandans and similar cultural bastards too many ideas -- criminalizing "touch"!!!!

Though in many American sexual harassment laws, the notion is included -- a touch, if perceived as sexual harassment, is sexual harassment regardless of intent in too many places.

 

[opinterph]

Um, your "here" link takes us to a JUB thread . . . .

Follow the links.

 

[Kulindahr]

Follow the links.

Like a scavenger hunt, a clue that leads to a clue?

 

[pat grimshaw]

...Your reasoning here is akin to noting that some trees I planted didn't survive through the winter and concluding that therefore I'm not responsible for the trees being there.

He isn't concluding that. He's concluding that you can't be judged responsible for the trees not surviving because there are other unknown factors —such as soil and weather— as well as yourself.

Similarly, unknown and undocumented actions in another culture over 250 years ago can't be judged responsible for another culture's behaviour today.