Survivor 21: Nicaragua

[altlover85]

I love you slip!

I've only watched the first season and then from China on, so I missed some seasons. I'm glad there were some seasons that helped support my position.

 

[slipintothefog]

Thanks.

There was another time that race was an issue in an alliance.

In Survivor Marquesas (season four), the final five was an alliance between white people Kathy, Neleh and Paschal and black people Sean and Vecepia. These five had pulled off the first coup against a dominant alliance in Survivor history. Neleh/Paschal were a tight bond and Sean/Vee were another, with Kathy as the swing vote (she also had immunity at F5). Pretty much the entire tribal council was about how Sean was offended that Kathy, Neleh and Paschal had just assumed that Sean and Vee were an alliance and asserted that it was because they are black. (They basically were in alliance, since he and Vee were from the other original tribe than the others, so it looked a little silly for him to deny it. A running theme throughout the season was Sean bringing up racism, although sometimes only jokingly.)

Kathy ended up voting out Sean and forming a short alliance with Vee against Paschal and Neleh, but it was a moment from an older season that I remembered due to the current discussion about race-based alliances.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Of course there are always counter-examples, and examples of mixed alliances. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the time, people from similar backgrounds form alliances excluding people from dissimilar backgrounds. My point was only that white people do this ALL THE TIME on reality shows and no one calls it out as racist or problematic. Again, how is it no one has raised a stink about Shannon's all-white alliance?

Cook Islands and Fiji are huge exceptions to the rule because that was when the show made a concerted effort to produce a "race war" (Fiji was originally slated to be a continuation of the race theme on Cook until one of the contestants bailed at the last minute so they scrapped the 4 way tribes along race lines). Furthermore, I would argue that the minorities banding together on those two seasons is a social strategy response to being minorities in the real world and having to contend (daily) with dominant culture (i.e. white) dynamics. Rather than wait to be picked off by a white dominant group or be taken to the end and lose to a white person, the minorities on these seasons -- finally given numbers to work with -- worked together and took control of the game. I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Oh and just for the record, I'm not defending NaOnka at all. I agree with joesman, she's nuts and a total bitch. I'm merely defending Sash's "let's work together as minorities" plan by pointing out that a similar plan has been enacted in past seasons (and indeed, during this season) by white people as well. Sash stating it plainly seems to have rubbed some people the wrong way, but don't kid yourselves, it happens the other way too even if it's not outright stated or outright intentional.

 

[aijalon18]

I don't think anyone disagrees that Naonka is an awful cow. I know Sash is kinda regretting the minority plan since the one black girl there is so unstable and ridiculous. But she seems like a good competitor so maybe she can help him get a little further before she self-destructs.

 

[altlover85]

Of course there are always counter-examples, and examples of mixed alliances. But that doesn't change the fact that a lot of the time, people from similar backgrounds form alliances excluding people from dissimilar backgrounds.

I agree.

My point was only that white people do this ALL THE TIME on reality shows and no one calls it out as racist or problematic. Again, how is it no one has raised a stink about Shannon's all-white alliance?

The all white alliance wasn't stated to be made because they were threatened by minorities, unlike Sash's alliance.

Cook Islands and Fiji are huge exceptions to the rule because that was when the show made a concerted effort to produce a "race war" (Fiji was originally slated to be a continuation of the race theme on Cook until one of the contestants bailed at the last minute so they scrapped the 4 way tribes along race lines).

I didn't know that.

Furthermore, I would argue that the minorities banding together on those two seasons is a social strategy response to being minorities in the real world and having to contend (daily) with dominant culture (i.e. white) dynamics.

I think that may be true, but it's not true in every case. If I were on the show, I wouldn't automatically be more comfortable with other minorities because I was raised by white people and have not been around people of color as much.

Rather than wait to be picked off by a white dominant group or be taken to the end and lose to a white person, the minorities on these seasons -- finally given numbers to work with -- worked together and took control of the game. I don't see anything wrong with that.

It's possible that they bonded for other reasons than just race. Again, I object to your use of "picked off" as that seems to imply an intent I don't think is there. It reminds me of hunting or something like that.

Oh and just for the record, I'm not defending NaOnka at all. I agree with joesman, she's nuts and a total bitch. I'm merely defending Sash's "let's work together as minorities" plan by pointing out that a similar plan has been enacted in past seasons (and indeed, during this season) by white people as well. Sash stating it plainly seems to have rubbed some people the wrong way, but don't kid yourselves, it happens the other way too even if it's not outright stated or outright intentional.

Again, I don't really see it as a conscious move by all members of the white alliance so I think your comparison fails.

 

[aijalon18]

I didnt know Fiji was supposed to be like Cook. But I did know Fiji was just as diverse as Cook b/c CBS was trying to prove the whole racial divide thing wasnt just a stunt. But it clearly was b/c right after Fiji they went right back to their old formula.

 

[aijalon18]

It's possible that they bonded for other reasons than just race. Again, I object to your use of "picked off" as that seems to imply an intent I don't think is there. It reminds me of hunting or something like that.

Again, I don't really see it as a conscious move by all members of the white alliance so I think your comparison fails.

He has been saying from the beginning that it wasnt a conscious thing. But the fact is that is what happens in almost every season of every reality show. The white contestants are drawn together for whatever reason and eliminate people outside their alliance. He never said the white contestants are all klan members, but that is just how it turns out.

No offense but I think you just have race issues. You are not racist. But clearly people mentioning race in any way makes you uncomfortable.

 

[slipintothefog]

Cook Islands and Fiji are huge exceptions to the rule because that was when the show made a concerted effort to produce a "race war" (Fiji was originally slated to be a continuation of the race theme on Cook until one of the contestants bailed at the last minute so they scrapped the 4 way tribes along race lines).

Actually, I'm pretty sure that Fiji was always going to have integrated tribes, whether or not Melissa had quit, and that's why there was even some crazy nine-person alliance that contained members of all four races. It was never introduced on the actual show because Sylvia split them apart when she assigned the new tribes.

The producers' intent with Fiji was to have an even number people from each race, integrated across two tribes, to show that Cook Islands wasn't done just for publicity/stunt casting. Unfortunately for them, reverting to a cast of 16 with only a couple of minorities for China destroyed whatever they were aiming for with Fiji.

 

[altlover85]

The white contestants are drawn together for whatever reason and eliminate people outside their alliance.

I can't see how you can group all the white contestants together when usually there are white and minority alliances. It's more likely there will be an all white alliance because there are more white people.

I have race issues because I believe that race is a social construction, much like gender. People forming alliances using race as a basis doesn't make sense to me. I think that's why even though I understand Sash's reasoning intellectually, I don't understand it on another level.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Oh and Cook Islands actually strengthens my (and aijalon's) point. Yul and Becky initially wanted to work with Candace and Jonathan but were forced to stick with Ozzy and Sundra because their white alliance members couldn't wait to re-team with Adam and Parvati. Jonathan even said he intended for the white team to re-group and make it to the end.

Remember it was Candace's stupid mutiny that set all this in motion so it's disingenous to imply (as slipintothefog did)* that the minorities banded together against the white players as anyhing other than a reaction to the white players banding together first. It was actually the perfect example of what I'm talking about: a minority group tries to work with the dominant culture who instead reject them to work with each other, and therefore the minority group reacts to this by banding together in self preservation.

*not attacking slipintothefog, whose posts and opinions I very much enjoy. Just stating a point of contention.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

^I agree with you totally. Can you believe it?.

Well, I did tell you I enjoyed your posts in other threads!

Slipintothefog, I know someone who made it to the finalist round for Fiji and he said the initial plan was to have two seasons of race wars. Obviously at some point that changed, but it's my understanding that was the original plan.

 

[Aratron]

I have race issues because I believe that race is a social construction, much like gender. People forming alliances using race as a basis doesn't make sense to me.

Watch Vanuatu then

About Fiji, some people say it was going to be like CI, others say that it would be 2 tribes like it happened. But if Melissa quit in the evening before, how would they have time to prepare the camps, and how would the have / have nots twist work with 4 tribes?

 

[orthoman62]

I'm sorry but the tone of Sash's comment wasn't "He wants to marginalize white players and arrogantly lead a minority alliance". The tone was "there aren't very many non-whites, it would be great to allign and and win the game". Theres a sense of overcoming against the odds. No one complained last week when there was a 'strong man's alliance'. I think people need to put these reality shows into perspective when there are 12-15 players and 1-3 of them are non-white. If you yourself were in that situation, as the minority, you may feel the same.

I'm sorry but I feel that's exactly what his tone was! My problem is because Sash is black, he (and from the tone on this board, most everyone else) feels like he can say, with no repercussions, that he wants an all minority finale. I'll repeat what I said earlier, if a white male had made the same comment about wanting to take all white members to the finale, he would have been crucified...at best called a racist and at worse be subjected to hateful rantings and name calling by an obviously equally racist, sock stealing, piece of human garbage that hopefully will be eliminated in the next few episodes.

 

[altlover85]

I'm sorry but I feel that's exactly what his tone was! My problem is because Sash is black, he (and from the tone on this board, most everyone else) feels like he can say, with no repercussions, that he wants an all minority finale. I'll repeat what I said earlier, if a white male had made the same comment about wanting to take all white members to the finale, he would have been crucified...at best called a racist and at worse be subjected to hateful rantings and name calling by an obviously equally racist, sock stealing, piece of human garbage that hopefully will be eliminated in the next few episodes.

She's not that bad.

Aratron, what went down on Vanatu? I was speaking from my own perspective as far as the logic of making a race based alliance.

 

[Aratron]

She's not that bad.

Aratron, what went down on Vanatu? I was speaking from my own perspective as far as the logic of making a race based alliance.

You said ''race is a social construction, much like gender'' and that season was based on gender and both genders wanted to go all the way with the same gender.

 

[slipintothefog]

But if Melissa quit in the evening before, how would they have time to prepare the camps, and how would the have / have nots twist work with 4 tribes?

What I had always heard is that the Have / Have Not twist was thrown in as a result of Melissa quitting. And her quitting also screwed over Sylvia because she was guaranteed to be on the Have Not tribe and with less time to bond with the others.

 

[altlover85]

You said ''race is a social construction, much like gender'' and that season was based on gender and both genders wanted to go all the way with the same gender.

What I mean is that gender roles are put on us by society. By the time anyone is on Survivor they've already learned to pick up on societal cues about how men and women should act.

As far as race goes, I identify more with white people than other Latinos because I was raised by white parents and around white children growing up. If I had never been adopted or had been adopted by Latino parents I would identify with Latinos more.

 

[aijalon18]

I'm sorry but I feel that's exactly what his tone was! My problem is because Sash is black, he (and from the tone on this board, most everyone else) feels like he can say, with no repercussions, that he wants an all minority finale. I'll repeat what I said earlier, if a white male had made the same comment about wanting to take all white members to the finale, he would have been crucified...at best called a racist and at worse be subjected to hateful rantings and name calling by an obviously equally racist, sock stealing, piece of human garbage that hopefully will be eliminated in the next few episodes.

How is Naonka racist? This is news to me.

The point Pepper and others are trying to make is hard to explain back and forth posts.. But just so you know having a popular opinion doesnt make it a right opinion.

Like Pepper said it would be different for a white guy to say it because white men are not from and oppressed minority culture. You cant compare everything equally b/c things are not equal.

If 3 gay guys banded together in order to make it to the end, would you be calling them heterophobic pieces of human garbage?

No they would just be celebrating their solidarity and overcoming the odds.

The fact is people are uncomfortable admitting that racism still exists. And ethnic minorities still face it every day. Minorities have often had to band together just to survive hostile work, school, and competitive environments. And in many cases they still have to.

 

[joesman]

Wait a minute. Hold on everybody. We got Shannon all wrong. Check out his defense and see if you don't love him to pieces.


Shannon Elkins: “I was concerned that [Sash] was gay and I was protecting my butthole”
Survivor Nicaragua »
by Andy Dehnart / September 24, 2010, 8:50 AM

comment »

In his exit interviews, Survivor Nicaragua cast member Shannon Elkins responds to his controversial exit in various ways: he blames editing, makes a funny joke, lies about not reading things about himself online, calls a journalist a liar, and says he regrets stereotyping. While Shannon offered a different version of Tribal Council that makes his question to Sash seem less egregious, and says he’s only guilty of stereotyping Sash, he erases any doubt that his comments are homophobic—they represent a literal fear of gay people—when he says he was worried Sash would have penetrated him involuntarily.

First, Shannon told Reality TV World that Tribal Council unfolded differently than we saw. Here’s what he said, in part:

So I knew I was going home, when I went in, I knew what was going on. So what I did was, I just tried to call everybody out. […] Sash is coming at me, coming at me, coming at me, so finally I said, “Look dude, I lied to you. I lied to you when you lied to me.” He said “When did I lie to you?” And I said, “When you told me you weren’t gay.”

That’s how the whole gay thing got brought out, not by me just asking a guy if he’s gay. I don’t give a shit if Sash is gay! I don’t care what he does in his spare time. I’m not judging anybody, I’m not bashing anybody. You know, I’m no one to judge, I’m far from perfect.

All I was saying like was, “Look dude, I’m showing this: you can go with Chase who doesn’t even know what show he’s on and he’s lying to everybody or you can go with Sash, the guy who won’t even tell us who he really is as a person! He’s lying to y’all!”

[…] Tribal Council caught me in the heat of the moment. Here’s what I did — I was guilty and apologize to stereotyping. I am guilty of stereotyping. Hands down, I stereotyped the guy. Just like they probably stereotyped me — “Oh, he’s a hillbilly from Louisiana!” But I’m not sitting there crying about it. I just called him out as a person saying he was lying about who he freaking really is as a person, that’s all.

He elaborated on his stereotyping in an interview with Fancast, saying, “As far as the gay bashing, I didn’t bash any gays. I didn’t say, ‘I hate gays.’ I didn’t say, ‘Gays are stupid.’ I stereotype, my brother. It’s like the show ‘Waterboy,’ people think we [people in Louisiana] ride airboats to work, we have no teeth, and we wrestle alligators for a living. Well people from Louisiana think people from New York are either in the mob or gay. I stereotype like everybody else stereotypes.”

Just when Shannon starts to sound reasonable, Fancast asked him a question that he gave an awful response to. Asked if he thought Sash was in the mob, Shannon said, “No, I was concerned that he was gay and I was protecting my butthole.” (Fancast removed the final word but I confirmed what it was.)

That kind of attitude and literal fear of a gay person is the literal definition of homophobia, and using gay slurs would be more evidence of homophobia. As to that, pre-game, Shannon casually used a gay slur in his interview with E! News’ Drusilla Moorhouse, who wrote in her recap today, “I for one was not surprised by Shannon’s slurs. During our first conversation in Nicaragua, he casually said, ‘My boys can call me a fag [but] I know I’m straight.’” Asked about that by Fancast, Shannon said, “You must’ve lost your damn mind, I’ve never used that word.” In other words, he’s calling Moorhouse a liar.

Shannon also lied in an interview with HitFix, saying, “I haven’t even been on the Internet… I don’t know what’s going on out there, but yeah, I’m gonna get a bad rap.” Of course, we know that’s not true. In addition, he’s been posting on Survivor Sucks, and just yesterday Shannon actually left another comment on my Facebook page’s wall last night, responding to one of your comments, which he’s obviously been reading.

Shannon does have nice things to say. Jud/Fabio, for example, “is hilarious, he’s one of the funniest guys I’ve ever met. I know they show me bashing him in episode one, but I came back and apologized,” he told Fancast. As to Sash, Shannon said, “Sash loves everybody. He’s really soft spoken, a little sweetheart. Our relationship was nothing.” Doing word association, he uses “Narnia” for Sash, because “That’s how deep in the closet he is.” That’s a good joke, or at least it is until you realize who said it.

Ultimately, I think Shannon doesn’t recognize that his attitudes represent a pretty limited worldview. In the HitFix interview, he implies that he thinks being gay is a choice: “I didn’t really give a damn if he was gay. It’s his preference,” he said. Explaining his episode one comments about women, Shannon told Fancast, “And as far as the sexist comments, I’ve been married since I was 19, man. I’m not a sexist. All I said was, ‘And if you have a girlfriend and your girl is not happy, y’alls relationship is miserable!’ You know what I’m saying? That’s all I was saying! Women rule us in marriage and we’re about to have a woman president. I was just joking and clowning and making some funny crap up to say on TV.”

And Shannon told Reality TV World that he’s misunderstood: “Believe it or not, everybody thinks I’m this bad person [but] I’m really not. I do have heart. You caught me out there for six days with no food. I stunk and it tasted like I had bird shit in my mouth every morning when I woke up. I mean, you just don’t understand the heat that you go under and then somebody keeps pushing you, pushing you, pushing you to the limit. That’s what happened with me, so hopefully people will get that and understand reality TV, that’s 70-something hours that goes into 47 minutes or whatever it is.”
Exclusive: Shannon Elkins talks about ‘Survivor: Nicaragua’ [Reality TV World]
‘Survivor’ Castaway Interview — Shannon Elkins [Fancast]
Survivor: Nicaragua Insider: Castaway Ousted by Tribe After Shocking Homophobic Rant [E! News]
Shannon Elkins talks ‘Survivor: Nicaragua’ [HitFix]