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The Cannibalisation of the United States

Nobody survived the Blitz by arming themselves. Perhaps you are familiar with the western-world-notion of the "charity drive" whereby a group of well-meaning do-gooders ship three full containers of children's socks to the bewildered residents of some other country, who have no desperate need for socks, but where the socks put sock vendors out of business whilst creating a feeling of smug satisfaction among the donors.

Except that the British asked. Roosevelt had the Army round up WWI weapons to crate up, but the British request had been for anything at all, so the NRA joined in the act. Since the Germans could have conquered Britain virtually unopposed at that point with a quick crossing, even last-generation rifles and "fowling pieces" (weapons for shooting birds) were welcomed.

Some claim the quick reaction from Americans made the Germans hesitate; I don't think they'd thought ahead far enough and probably wouldn't have invaded anyway -- but if they were thinking about it, even crate of small arms meant more soldiers they'd have to commit.
 
Except that the British asked.
Some claim the quick reaction from Americans made the Germans hesitate; I don't think they'd thought ahead far enough and probably wouldn't have invaded anyway....

That is fanciful thinking at very best. As I've already said, the majority of historians agree that any attempt by the german at an invasion would have failed, catastrophicaly.
 
That is fanciful thinking at very best. As I've already said, the majority of historians agree that any attempt by the german at an invasion would have failed, catastrophically.

Are we talking about the same moment in history? The British Army had merely one fully-equipped division to fight with and was seriously in disarray. If the Germans had left the consolidation of France (and the rest of Europe) and headed across the Channel while Dunkirk was still being evacuated, they could have come ashore any place they pleased and just rolled onward. There was even talk of a conditional surrender.

A month later it was a completely different ball game. With a home guard armed with U.S.-supplied personal arms, both privately donated and taken from the Army by Roosevelt, no landing could be unopposed. Tanks were rolling off the production lines, over a hundred in June, and perhaps most importantly, Winston Churchill was prime minister. Instead of just one division equipped and ready, there were ten times that many, mostly fully equipped, and a Home Guard of 1.5 million. The window of opportunity was gone.
 
Are we talking about the same moment in history? The British Army had merely one fully-equipped division to fight with and was seriously in disarray. If the Germans had left the consolidation of France (and the rest of Europe) and headed across the Channel while Dunkirk was still being evacuated, they could have come ashore any place they pleased and just rolled onward. There was even talk of a conditional surrender.

A month later it was a completely different ball game. With a home guard armed with U.S.-supplied personal arms, both privately donated and taken from the Army by Roosevelt, no landing could be unopposed. Tanks were rolling off the production lines, over a hundred in June, and perhaps most importantly, Winston Churchill was prime minister. Instead of just one division equipped and ready, there were ten times that many, mostly fully equipped, and a Home Guard of 1.5 million. The window of opportunity was gone.

I can't think of a single, successful major amphibious attack that the Germans made during the whole war. The took North Africa from Libya, which was an Italian colony. Norway was very close to Germany and a very small country with an ineffective military and government. Still, it took awhile for the Germans to subdue Norway.

I'm sure the Germans realized they did not possess the necessary naval and marine capabilities to successfully invade Britain.
 
I can't think of a single, successful major amphibious attack that the Germans made during the whole war. The took North Africa from Libya, which was an Italian colony. Norway was very close to Germany and a very small country with an ineffective military and government. Still, it took awhile for the Germans to subdue Norway.

I'm sure the Germans realized they did not possess the necessary naval and marine capabilities to successfully invade Britain.

They thought they did. But Dunkirk proved that they really had no concept of using the sea militarily: they halted their advance and let the Expeditionary Force reorganize because they thought being against the sea meant the British (and friends) were trapped.

They had a similar strategic blind spot as far as air power. The whole organization of the Luftwaffe was built around air support for ground attacks. So the entire Battle of Britain was a matter of an air force that knew what it was doing -- the RAF -- against a numerically superior force that was fighting the wrong battle.

If the Germans had been organized with the goal of hitting Britain, with smashing France only a thing done on the way to hitting Britain, they could have swept across the Channel. I used to do military wargaming, and if the guy commanding the Nazis made capturing Britain THE goal, it was successful more often than not (if the commander just ignored the forces at Dunkirk and went ahead with launching an invasion, success was almost always achieved).

Interestingly, though, the Germans still tended to fail where both the Romans and the Normans did: at least the Scottish highlands, and always Ireland, remained free. So without some fair good fortune, a German invasion which swept over England merely shifted the Battle of Britain to be the Battle of Scotland and/or of Ireland. And once the Americans enter the war, they merely use Scotland and Ireland as the focus to take back England [although once, commanding the Americans, I successfully invaded southern France first, making the Germans divide their forces, thus making the task of taking back England easier).

Personally I think the crucial hinge of the matter was Churchill: with him as Prime Minister, there wouldn't have been a surrender even if England did fall; he'd have had the whole government off to Ireland and managed to make the Germans bleed themselves to death trying to take the Highlands.
I also think that if the Germans had succeeded in taking England, the U.S. would have been in the war right then. In a Churchill biography I read, thinking that Britain couldn't actually be invaded was a big element in why the U.S. didn't do more than send weapons; so if that had been shattered, I think it likely that Roosevelt would have been able to convince Congress that a declaration of war was in order.

In long-view strategic terms, then, the only difference would have been the length of the war, because what the Germans needed wasn't a successful invasion, but a British surrender -- something that just wasn't going to happen.

Are you that serious? Or do you not read what I post? I'm not using selective history. I know that the Russians were invaded, but the Germans sealed their own fate of invading Russia just like Napoleon did. Nobody has ever invaded Russia successfully. Hitler screwed up on two fronts. The British were only invaded once by the Romans and never again, and the Russians have never been because of the conditions of their winters.


Russia was successfully invaded by the Tatar Mongols. The British Isles were invaded by both Norsemen and Normans.

The only person who could successfully invade Russia from the west would be the Queen of Narnia -- she likes winter. :p
 
Hitler diverted most of his maritime development to Uboats. All of his campaigns on land required so much resources that he had to develop a defensive navy first, and wait for further successes. America's entrance into the war with our naval might, forced him to an even higher ammount of deffensive ships.

Hitlers greatest skill as a military general was his aggresive campaign strategy. The HUGE royal navy and then later, the huge american Navy, locked him away from ever using his "talent" at sea.

He could only destroy them via the air and through attrition make them weak adversaries.

Turns out he underestimated the english when they put Lord of the Admiralty at the start of the First World War, Winston CHurchil in office as PM. At that point, as the losing commander of the battle of Galipoli, he had been discredited as a military genius.

Bad call on Hitlers part, and he paid for it. Won a bunch of battles but couldn't win the war.
 
really?

pointing out an ingratitude??? for help as Hitler was trying to Bomb you guys out of existence?

pardon the FUCK out of me, but how would YOU know what we are taught? I am sure your ivory tower hasn't included a reality check on what you think of america

believe me, My eyes have been opened about what brits think of americans and our contributions to their nation and defense here.

ITs not a lesson I will soon forget

Well, who is grateful for the French to intervene in their war of independence? Do you know someone who uses "cheese-eating surrender monkeys"?

Certainly Europeans should be grateful for the assistance and involvement of the United States in WW2, and I believe most are. But this is not helped by the attitude some Americans display, that America single-handedly won the war. There are is even a film where the ENIGMA-Code is hacked by an AMERICAN, even though it was a (gay) Brit who did this. This surely leaves a bitter taste in many people.

And the question is, how should Europeans express this gratitude? When some people came up with "Old Europe" and found them ungrateful when they didn't agree with the Iraq War, this becomes problematic.

Regarding the attack on Russia, Stalin intended to invade Germany as well, he just thought he had more time to prepare and didn't anticipate that Hitler would launch an attack before he subjugated Western Europe.
 
Hitler diverted most of his maritime development to Uboats. All of his campaigns on land required so much resources that he had to develop a defensive navy first, and wait for further successes. America's entrance into the war with our naval might, forced him to an even higher ammount of deffensive ships.

Hitlers greatest skill as a military general was his aggresive campaign strategy. The HUGE royal navy and then later, the huge american Navy, locked him away from ever using his "talent" at sea.

He could only destroy them via the air and through attrition make them weak adversaries.

Turns out he underestimated the english when they put Lord of the Admiralty at the start of the First World War, Winston CHurchil in office as PM. At that point, as the losing commander of the battle of Galipoli, he had been discredited as a military genius.

Bad call on Hitlers part, and he paid for it. Won a bunch of battles but couldn't win the war.

If Hitler had been aggressive with respect to Britain, he could have taken England. The Royal Navy had all it could do dealing with getting the Expeditionary Force out of Dunkirk -- they couldn't have done both that and held off a German crossing.

But yes, Churchill was the key: even if the Germans had taken England, it would have just been a hell-hole for them, because Churchill would have continued the fight from wherever was still free. German armor would have bogged in the Scottish Highlands, and with local forces easily resupplied from the sea, the Germans would have been worse off even than in Greece, which was no picnic.
 
Certainly Europeans should be grateful for the assistance and involvement of the United States in WW2, and I believe most are. But this is not helped by the attitude some Americans display, that America single-handedly won the war. There are is even a film where the ENIGMA-Code is hacked by an AMERICAN, even though it was a (gay) Brit who did this. This surely leaves a bitter taste in many people.

I refused to see that; so did most of the people I knew. But too many said, "It's just entertainment!"
 
No, that's false. It only started under Reagan once he took the USA from the biggest creditor nation to the biggest debtor. Ever since then Republicans have damned the torpedos and driven the nation to free fall. The Democratic Presidents have only slowed the rapid descent down a bit.

The USA of the past 30 years if far, far, far, different than the past 225 years.

Exactly, and it amazes me that so many idiots in this country blather on and on about how Ronald Reagan was the best president ever and how great he was. He was fucking terrible, FDR was the best president, and we need another president like him. Action and action now! NOt that cut and spend shitty GOP philosophy.
 
I actually side with MoltenRock on this issue here. We had a good 20 year run as the world's only superpower but it is time to step aside and let someone else take the reigns and be the "world's police".
 
Our nation got hijacked on January 20th, 1981 and the course of the government was shifted to forming a Plutocracy.

Is the American Dream dead? I don't think so, but I think it's on the decline. At the rate we are headed were going to handover the nation is worse shape to our Children, something every government (until Reagan) was not ok with doing.

Maybe I hold out hope because it is possible to (if we try really hard) to get back on track. I'm so sick of our government being in the business of "nation building" while our nation deteriorates. We have to stop policing the world and start to work on our own piece of land. We need universal healthcare, we need strong pensions, we need good paying jobs, we need unions to be protected. Sure, we could abandon ship and say it was fun while it lasted, but I'm hoping that there is some fighting spirit left in most other Americans that involves fighting for a better tomorrow, not shooting and bombing other nations.

If we can get rid of the Plutocrats: the Ryans, the Perrys, the Santorums, the Scott Walkers we can maybe improve the country we love.

The United States is a city upon a hill, watched by the world, and from what I've gathered, most of the world and most Americans don't like what they see.
 
Our nation got hijacked on January 20th, 1981 and the course of the government was shifted to forming a Plutocracy.

Is the American Dream dead? I don't think so, but I think it's on the decline. At the rate we are headed were going to handover the nation is worse shape to our Children, something every government (until Reagan) was not ok with doing.

Maybe I hold out hope because it is possible to (if we try really hard) to get back on track. I'm so sick of our government being in the business of "nation building" while our nation deteriorates. We have to stop policing the world and start to work on our own piece of land. We need universal healthcare, we need strong pensions, we need good paying jobs, we need unions to be protected. Sure, we could abandon ship and say it was fun while it lasted, but I'm hoping that there is some fighting spirit left in most other Americans that involves fighting for a better tomorrow, not shooting and bombing other nations.

If we can get rid of the Plutocrats: the Ryans, the Perrys, the Santorums, the Scott Walkers we can maybe improve the country we love.

The United States is a city upon a hill, watched by the world, and from what I've gathered, most of the world and most Americans don't like what they see.

Your vision is entirely too limited. The problem isn't just from one party, its from both. The democrats care no more about any of us than the republicans do. Their vision is different, sure, but it isn't one that's any better.

The decline also started far before Reagan, and was much more insidious than you state. Its been discussed in other threads, so I won't go over it all here. But blaming it all on Reagan isn't accurate.
 
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