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The expanding Israel-Hamas war

Iran is in this up to their necks, and they have been supplying both Hezbollah and Hamas for years and years. If there is one actor that's not Israel and Hamas who is guilty - it's Iran.

I have to laugh when someone tries to say that Israel is being told to go anywhere. Bibi told the Palestinians to get out or die. then he refused to open the border. That is a war crime. Israel's policy for years and years has been to tell Palestinians to get out and then steal their land. If someone wants to know why Palestinians are angry, we can start there.
 
Israel has been a state created out of sanctioned theft of Palestine since the early 20th century. And the Zionist hardliners are as intransigent and self-righteous as they come. And certainly, when we watch states like China and rrrZZZja, in a post colonial world, seize other countries by force, at the heart of it, the theft of territory is the theft of territory and the displacement of populations is a crime.

Having noted this, Hamas and Hezbollah are not freedom fighters or capable representatives of functional states. They are attack dogs, used as proxies to try to challenge the power of the western liberal democracies in the region. And until Iranians actually overthrow their religious leaders and the Iranian Guard and rrrZZZja is rendered impotent, they will keep being used to make the lives of the Palestinian people in the region ever worse.
 
The Israeli military has apparently eliminated the senior operative of the Hamas division for the development of strategic weapons - Mahmoud Sabih, according to the IDF.

"This department (Hamas projects and developments - ed.) was engaged in increasing the weapons potential of Hamas, exchanging knowledge with terrorist organizations throughout the Middle East."

This is yet another of the upper scale of leadership killed by IDF over the last week. Most of the the core leadership will be safely out of harms way, but this time, one expects the IDF and Mossad to systematically destroy every person that has been ID'd as a key member of Hamas over the last decade.
 
Hamas broke with Iran in 2013 over Syria did not receive any support from them until they reconciled in 2020. They are far more independent than Hezbollah.

Israel is a state because in 1948 the Jews took the land by force from the arabs and have held them off since. History says land belongs to he who can defend it, it doesn't 'belong' to anyone.......just ask the American Indians.

Reality can be harsh.
 
Norri said:
Israel is a state because in 1948 the Jews took the land by force from the arabs and have held them off since. History says land belongs to he who can defend it, it doesn't 'belong' to anyone.......just ask the American Indians.

Reality can be harsh.
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This is an excuse for bloody colonialism and the fact that you are applying it to Israel is an implicit admission that what they are doing is ethnic cleansing and possibly genocide.

Reality can be harsh.
 
TX-Beau said:
This is an excuse for bloody colonialism and the fact that you are applying it to Israel is an implicit admission that what they are doing is ethnic cleansing and possibly genocide.

Reality can be harsh.
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It's not an excuse just an observation. People fight for different reasons nationalism, ideology, ethnic differences, religion to name a few but they only fight over one thing land. Yes it's a bloody business it's also a human one.
 
The thing is, prior to the United Nations being created we lived in a colonial, late medieval imperialist world. WWII and the rapacious seizure and colonization of other countries was supposed to become a thing of the past under the UN Charter and new world order. The security of every country was supposed to be inviolable.

Instead, the fear of nuclear war became a cudgel used by the Soviets, China and nations like Israel to seize territory under the false banner of liberation and I get that for the Zionists, the state of Israel was essentially viewed as reparations for 2000 years of diaspora.

Left to their own devices, Jews and Arabs probably might have worked out a polyglot nation. But the crusades made sure that this would never happen and here we are, all this time on, living with people arguing their case over an Iron Age God.
 
Norri said:
It's not an excuse just an observation. People fight for different reasons nationalism, ideology, ethnic differences, religion to name a few but they only fight over one thing land. Yes it's a bloody business it's also a human one.
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This statement contradicts itself. People do indeed fight over many things, they are not all just wanting more land. That is another excuse trying to justify Israeli ethnic cleansing.

It is an excuse. Not only does this wallow in moral relativism, it contradicts itself and is a stunning example of ethical cowardice.
 
So the big question now in 2023 is who will control Gaza now.

There is no way it gets ceded back to the Palestinians... if I am Israel, I would be laying out a plan for permanent occupation of the strip...and the demolition of every settlement that can house or support Hamas. I would be looking to the systematic destruction of an urban fabric that can support Hamas forces or the development of militias and systems that threaten my state. In short, I would see all of Gaza's Palestinians scattered around the world as refugees and stateless to make it impossible for any mass uprising to occur again.

It just seems like a suicide mission...that Hamas will bring about the total annihilation of the Gaza region as an autonomous entity.

Thoughts?
 
I think Hamas is uninterested in making Gaza a viable state. if Israel goes down that path, they will alienate the Arab world for at least a generation. I think that is what Hamas wanted, and I think Bibi is just stupid enough to give it to them.
 
If the news can be believed, Israel is delaying a ground invasion because they are waiting to see if more hostages will be released. I don't believe they will wait long. Israel needs to go in and take out Hamas.
 
TX-Beau said:
This statement contradicts itself. People do indeed fight over many things, they are not all just wanting more land. That is another excuse trying to justify Israeli ethnic cleansing.

It is an excuse. Not only does this wallow in moral relativism, it contradicts itself and is a stunning example of ethical cowardice.
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The statement stands on its own, I see no contradiction. And please enlighten me what besides land do people fight over?

War is neither ethical or moral attempting to apply those concepts to war will only lead to frustration.......and probably confusion as well.
 
rareboy said:
So the big question now in 2023 is who will control Gaza now.

There is no way it gets ceded back to the Palestinians... if I am Israel, I would be laying out a plan for permanent occupation of the strip...and the demolition of every settlement that can house or support Hamas. I would be looking to the systematic destruction of an urban fabric that can support Hamas forces or the development of militias and systems that threaten my state. In short, I would see all of Gaza's Palestinians scattered around the world as refugees and stateless to make it impossible for any mass uprising to occur again.

It just seems like a suicide mission...that Hamas will bring about the total annihilation of the Gaza region as an autonomous entity.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
It's not that I disagree with you, although I doubt that will happen, it's just that by doing as you suggest Israel will become the most ironic country in the world as it does to the Palestinians what has been done to them for thousands of yrs. To quote an old song lyric 'should I laugh or should I cry as I become all I despise'.
 
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War brings out the worst in most people. Sometimes it brings out the best. The horror of war can prompt the bravest of men and women to sacrifice their own lives so that others may be saved. Self sacrifice is a most noble act but not one you will see much sign of amongst the rich and powerful. Coming a close second to self sacrifice is forgiveness. It is almost as difficult to do. But without forgiveness there will never be an end to the suffering in this part of the world. Look to Northern Ireland. Enemies had to hold their noses and talk to people they had vowed to kill. And keep talking. And keep talking. They said it couldn't be done but they did it. if they could overcome the hate in NI they can do the same in the Middle East.
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if you will not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses.
 
The wars in the middle east have brought out the worst in everyone.

Everyone thinks their Abrahamic God is on their side. What they don't realize is that their God hates them all equally.
 
A family were describing their desperate water shortage.They were all thirsty and dirty but no matter how bad things got, the water ration reserved for the cat was sacrosanct. As it should be. Puss is not Jewish. Puss is not Muslim. Just a cat who does not deserve to suffer for man's stupidity.
It's only a tiny act of kindness but these little things help us to avoid losing our humanity altogether.
 
Norri said:
The statement stands on its own, I see no contradiction. And please enlighten me what besides land do people fight over?

War is neither ethical or moral attempting to apply those concepts to war will only lead to frustration.......and probably confusion as well.
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I can't decide if you just don't know what morals and ethics are or are just trying to avoid answering the point.

Every war that has ever been fought, is being fought, or will ever be fought, has a moral and ethical dimension. Period. It's just ignorance to assert otherwise.
 
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