The expanding Israel-Hamas war

[Norri]

I can't decide if you just don't know what morals and ethics are or are just trying to avoid answering the point.

Every war that has ever been fought, is being fought, or will ever be fought, has a moral and ethical dimension. Period. It's just ignorance to assert otherwise.

I agree there is a moral and ethical dimension to war but it's the morals and ethics of those waging the war that matters and usually they are hard to discern. After the fact we can all agree that, for instance, the Germans were not especially moral under Hitler while waging war but that has no effect on anything except perhaps making some feel morally superior.
I heard yesterday that under the 'rules of war' should say a Hamas fighter grab a child to shield himself the child can be shot and its kosher so to speak. I'm not sure I agree with that morality sitting on my couch but if I were in a combat situation my view might change.

 

[rareboy]

Let's be perfectly clear here.

There is no moral or ethical ascendancy in this war.

This is the crucible (once again) of the worst of the worst of Abrahamic relativism.

Humans are simply horrible, Period.

To be tribal atavistic brutes is one thing. To keep this religious and tribal nonsense going after the lessons of the 20th century shows us as being unworthy of continued existence.

And this is the most current and starkest example of why the globe would be better off without us.

 

[Norri]

Let's be perfectly clear here.

There is no moral or ethical ascendancy in this war.

This is the crucible (once again) of the worst of the worst of Abrahamic relativism.

Humans are simply horrible, Period.

I'm with you buddy the only thing I would add is that while we humans are horrible animals in nature are no better. It's our intellect that is supposed to separate us but alas not yet.

I'm just asking here but the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza is awful and I can't help but wonder since the Israelis have total control over Gaza's water and power a great military advantage if there is not a better way to achieve their goals.

Instead of finding a way to exploit that it's men using their nasty toys.

 

[rareboy]

Animals in nature are WAyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better.

Their imperatives are honest. And bestial.

Ours are not. They are cloaked in religion and false arguments.

 

[rareboy]

I'm just asking here but the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza is awful and I can't help but wonder since the Israelis have total control over Gaza's water and power a great military advantage if there is not a better way to achieve their goals.

Instead of finding a way to exploit that it's men using their nasty toys.

This is even beyond question. Guterres sums it up.

And the world has stood by for decades.

At any point in time there was a better way. But Hamas and Israel have been intransigent and dehumanized.

Gaza will be obliterated. Another footnote in imperialist, colonialist history. With luck...and I mean with LUCK...Gaza Palestinians will be able to escape to the west in yet another Diaspora. Because otherwise, they will be obliterated.

 

[TX-Beau]

I agree there is a moral and ethical dimension to war but it's the morals and ethics of those waging the war that matters and usually they are hard to discern. After the fact we can all agree that, for instance, the Germans were not especially moral under Hitler while waging war but that has no effect on anything except perhaps making some feel morally superior.
I heard yesterday that under the 'rules of war' should say a Hamas fighter grab a child to shield himself the child can be shot and its kosher so to speak. I'm not sure I agree with that morality sitting on my couch but if I were in a combat situation my view might change.

No, they are not. usually, the moral and ethical positions in a war are very clear.

The "rules of war" say no such thing, they expressly forbid what you claim. It is a war crime to grab the child, it is a war crime to kill the child. Who is telling you these things?

 

[Norri]

No, they are not. usually, the moral and ethical positions in a war are very clear.

The "rules of war" say no such thing, they expressly forbid what you claim. It is a war crime to grab the child, it is a war crime to kill the child. Who is telling you these

Under the LOAC (laws of armed conflict) the example you give is not allowed and that is a war crime but under different circumstances it is allowed. Let's say Hamas is producing missiles under a school or a crowded shopping area the missile production site is a legitimate military target and can be hit. It is true that the attacker must do all in his power to avoid any civilian deaths but that does not mean there won't be any and were there some it is not a war crime. Isn't that what is called collateral damage?

 

[rareboy]

Just noting that rrrZZZn media is reporting that the Hamas delegation has arrived in Mokba.

Since the Kremlin is helping to finance and prosecute this war...I suppose it only makes sense that their terrorists would report to kiss Putin's ring.

 

[MARMITE]

Animals in nature are WAyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better.

Their imperatives are honest. And bestial.

Ours are not. They are cloaked in religion and false arguments.

I don't think so. Have you seen videos of wild hyenas or wild dogs eating their prey alive? The point the person was trying to make was that our intellect was supposed to make us better than wild animals, but alas, we are animals. And we act like animals. The horrific October 7th attack just reminds me that humans can and will behave like our wild animal ancestors, regardless of how much progress we think we should have made by now. While I think we stay out of this war, I do wonder about the Left somehow thinking the radical Islamists are somehow allies of the gay community. They would behead us or burn us or throw us off buildings if they had the chance. Neither one is our ally.

 

[rareboy]

Animals likely don't have 'religious' convictions.

They devour one another out of a biological imperative. They don't pretend their god is superior.

 

[MARMITE]

Animals likely don't have 'religious' convictions.

They devour one another out of a biological imperative. They don't pretend their god is superior.

Yeah, but we are just animals and to think any different is ignorant. Have you seen the videos of wild animals devouring each other alive? It is quite brutal and a very painful and terrifying death for the prey animal. The problem is humans have started to think they are somehow better or more advanced than wild animals, and no, we are just animals after all. I've seen how when things go bad on a subway, most people just stand around and stare at the person getting attacked by the other human. I've seen the same thing with other prey animals like rabbits, just staring at their fellow rabbits getting eaten by the predator and not doing anything to intervene. At first I was disappointed in the humans not rising to the occasion to save their fellow human from the person attacking them, but then it dawned on me. We are just animals. The vast majority of us will continue to act like wild animals.

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Hyena Eats Wildebeest Alive Brutal Killing Full Movie..Kenya Africa (YouTube)

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[Dargelos]

Thank you for putting me off my supper.

 

[johaninsc]

 

[TX-Beau]

Under the LOAC (laws of armed conflict) the example you give is not allowed and that is a war crime but under different circumstances it is allowed. Let's say Hamas is producing missiles under a school or a crowded shopping area the missile production site is a legitimate military target and can be hit. It is true that the attacker must do all in his power to avoid any civilian deaths but that does not mean there won't be any and were there some it is not a war crime. Isn't that what is called collateral damage?

Collateral damage would be shooting a gun at one person and killing someone walking behind that person. Collateral Damage is unintentional. If you target a school or a shopping center that is not collateral damage any more than the carpet bombing of London or Dresden was collateral damage during WWII. Targeting a school hospital or shopping center for any reason is unethical and a war crime.

What you are saying is that it's acceptable to kill children to get a few terrorists. Why do terrorists put missiles in hospitals, to make Israel commit war crimes, that's why. It remains a war crime to endanger civilians that way, and it is a war crime to kill them to get the terrorists.

It's the intention of terrorists and all proponents of asymmetrical warfare to provoke the target into abandoning their ethics and doing something extreme. The minute you give a terrorist what he wants your ethical position vanishes and there is no longer any difference between terrorists and you.

 

[TX-Beau]

...I do wonder about the Left somehow thinking the radical Islamists are somehow allies of the gay community. They would behead us or burn us or throw us off buildings if they had the chance. Neither one is our ally.

Who specifically on the "left" said this? I've never heard anyone left of center say this about fundamentalists of any religion.

 

[rareboy]

Who specifically on the "left" said this? I've never heard anyone left of center say this about fundamentalists of any religion.

It is a bullshit argument that gets used too often. As though the 'Left' is one homogenous mass...it also has fuck all to do with this thread.

 

[Latimer]

@ TX-Beau https://voices4london.org.uk/blog/open-letter-queers-solidarity-palestine/

From the letter:

"We believe that standing in solidarity with Palestine is a queer issue. Oppression of all marginalised communities is rooted in the same violent structures – colonialism, imperialism, and capitalism. We too feel the long-lasting harmful impact of the British Empire. Those who question our support for the Palestinian struggle on the basis of “gay rights” forget that the criminalisation of homosexuality in much of the world stems from colonialism. We too understand the power of propaganda and a media that serves the interests of those in power, rather than those who struggle for liberation on the margins of society."

 

[rareboy]

Different thing.

Support for Palestine does not equal support for radical Islamists.

 

[rareboy]

Meanwhile, Israel has expanded their invasion of Gaza beyond wiping out cells of fighters.

Expect a broader incursion in the near future.

Israel cannot afford to leave a single Hamas unit alive or functional.

And no matter the threats from Iran and the other players...there will be no respite until the entire Hamas infrastructure is destroyed for this decade, at least.

 

[TX-Beau]

@ TX-Beau https://voices4london.org.uk/blog/open-letter-queers-solidarity-palestine/

Only a bigot would assume that all people in Gaza, half of whom are children, are "radical Islamicists." Nowhere does that say what you are disingenuously trying to pretend it does.