The historicity of Jesus Christ

[Jacquemar]

Nevertheless the atheists attacking Christianity learned their values from Christianity.

That's the first time I've heard this... How do you figure?

 

[kallipolis]

Nevertheless the atheists attacking Christianity learned their values from Christianity.

When homo sapiens first emerged I am certain that The Creator was guiding his human creation, just as he does today.

Christianity is a late arrival on the human journey of self discovery.

Law codes of the type found in the Books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy were not uncommon in the ancient world. Archeologists have discovered a large number of legal collections, including Sumerian, Babylonian, Hittite and Assyrian collections. The most famous is the Code of Hammurabi, dating from several hundred years earlier than Moses.

Ancient law codes like those in the Torah or in Hammurabi's decrees consist primarily of sample rulings in particular types of cases — called casuistic law. As case law (pertinent on JUB for most of this site's members are from English speaking nations where English Common Law is the legal foundation, and case law performs the role of binding precedent) they present what penalties were assigned to a wide range of offences, rather than indicating certain behavior to be right, or wrong, or telling people what they should, or should not do.

Whereas the type of law found in the Hebrew Decalogue that prohibits, or requires certain types of behavior, is called apodictic law, and is rarely found in the legal collections of the ancient Near East.

The Decalogue's requirements are not seen as a stand-alone Law code but are the "fine print" on the Covenant, or "contract" made with YHWH. From this perspective the literary formulation of the Covenant (especially as it appears as part of the Exodus narrative) looks more like a suzerainty treaty — an international treaty between nations outlining the responsibilities of a subject people to their overlord... (suzerain).

The unique attribute of the Decalogue is its focus on social relationships rather than religious or political. It is striking that in a Covenant or treaty between the deity and a subject people only three of the stipulations pertain to how one worships the deity, while seven pertain to how one treats other people. Society, morality and social justice stand at the heart of the Covenant and the Decalogue implies that genuine worship of YHWH is found in doing right by one's fellow human beings.

The Decalogue was Israel's Magna Carta or, probably better, its Bill of Rights. Framed in the style of ancient ansuzerainty treaty, the Decalogue encapsulates the rights and responsibilities that the Israelites owed to their divine overlord. But these "ten words" are only part of a larger national constitution outlined in the Torah as a whole. They are part of the fine print upon an ancient contract outlining a revolutionary-new polity — a theocracy based upon a divine law that laid down stipulations about every aspect of life from the marriage bed to the law court.

Christianity invites its followers to observe the "spirit of the law" over the "letter of the law"....through faith in The Word (The Holy Spirit), alive in the life of every human person.

 

[ludolfo]

Conversely very many of Jesus' followers over the centuries have clothed the naked, sheltered the homeless, and fed the hungry..and continue to do so....

Jesus' words are remarkable for they invite each of us to love our neighbour, as our self.

The love for the 'God' 'he' was claimed (because there exists no actual historical evidence 'Jesus' even existed!) to be talking about, the God of the O.T in same sentence as 'love thy neighbor' is a complete contradiction! For his father was the biggest war monger!

It is common sense to know this

 

[kallipolis]

^Your "common sense" is duly noted.

 

[Benvolio]

Most of what we think about ancient history rests upon similar evidence. What is known about the emperor Caligula rests upon Suetonious who wrote decades after the facts, upon hearsay and rumor. Josephus wrote sbout the death of Caligula, but that part of Tacitus is lost. With Jesus we have many more writers, albiet no first hand witnesses that we know of.

 

[kallipolis]

With Jesus we have many more writers, albiet no first hand witnesses that we know of.

Unless one discounts the evidence provided by Jesus' apostles who lived with him for some two, and half years.

 

[Benvolio]

Unless one discounts the evidence provided by Jesus' apostles who lived with him for some two, and half years.

I am not convinced that we have the testimony of any of the apostles. The few lines from the "beloved Disciple" may be from an apostle, but he is obviosly dishonest, so it is not much help.

 

[ludolfo]

did Caligula 'walk on water'?

 

[Jacquemar]

did Caligula 'walk on water'?

No, but Dionysus did. He even turned a whole lake into wine. Now that's impressive!

 

[HoodedRat]

Most of what we think about ancient history rests upon similar evidence. What is known about the emperor Caligula rests upon Suetonious who wrote decades after the facts, upon hearsay and rumor.

So what? No one claims that belief in Caligula (or any other non-religion-derived character) is essential to the salvation of one's immortal soul. But if people are going to make Messianic claims about the Jesus-character then it would be nice to know for sure that he actually existed outside of the pages of a book of pious fiction.

 

[Benvolio]

So what? No one claims that belief in Caligula (or any other non-religion-derived character) is essential to the salvation of one's immortal soul. But if people are going to make Messianic claims about the Jesus-character then it would be nice to know for sure that he actually existed outside of the pages of a book of pious fiction.

You can never know for sure; not Jesus nor much else for that matter; much of the history of philosophy deals with the question of what we can know for sure. So far, more eludes us with every passing year.

 

[HoodedRat]

You can never know for sure; not Jesus nor much else for that matter; much of the history of philosophy deals with the question of what we can know for sure. So far, more eludes us with every passing year.

That is my point entirely.

 

[kallipolis]

I am not convinced that we have the testimony of any of the apostles. The few lines from the "beloved Disciple" may be from an apostle, but he is obviosly dishonest, so it is not much help.

Your scholarly observations are noted.....

 

[kallipolis]

You can never know for sure; not Jesus nor much else for that matter; much of the history of philosophy deals with the question of what we can know for sure. So far, more eludes us with every passing year.

Sophistic interludes are always a pleasure to read for their entertainment value.