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The Ills Of Capitalism

(trivia: who can find a historical instance where human excrement did in fact get sold)

It's in the Bible!

2 Kings 6:25 - "And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass's head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove's dung for five pieces of silver."

(The fun biblical quote is Ezekiel 4:12-15)
 
Yes, but he's muddled the whole thing by slopping everything he talks about all over the place. It's like he's painting by number and getting some wonderful hues out there, but he can't seem to stay between the lines or keep from dribbling every time he moves the brush.


From the other direction, consider shit: it's full of valuable nutrients, so why do we have to pay to have it taken away? Why can't se sell it?

(trivia: who can find a historical instance where human excrement did in fact get sold)

While I believe urine was in demand in the Roman Empire as a major ammonia source for cleaning clothing.
 
It's in the Bible!

2 Kings 6:25 - "And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass's head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove's dung for five pieces of silver."

(The fun biblical quote is Ezekiel 4:12-15)

AH, but a dove's dung isn't human.

And the Ezekiel reference is fun -- I'd forgotten that. But no sale was involved.

What I had in mind is here.

While I believe urine was in demand in the Roman Empire as a major ammonia source for cleaning clothing.

Yep -- and some regions' people's urine was reputed better for some bleaching applications... and the stuff got bottled and sold. And in the Middle Ages it was used in preparation of wool, as a bleaching agent and to clean the wool before spinning.
 
Capitalism is the ultimate 'closed system'. At least with other economic systems, they contaied the seeds of their own destruction. But with Capitalism, there appears to be no way out. Unless I'm totally mistaken.
 
Capitalism is the ultimate 'closed system'. At least with other economic systems, they contaied the seeds of their own destruction. But with Capitalism, there appears to be no way out. Unless I'm totally mistaken.

Other systems "contain" the seeds of their own destruction because of human nature. Human nature says if I have something you want and you have something I want, we can trade (this is an extension of the fact of self-ownership).

But that matter of freely trading is the foundation of capitalism. So what capitalism "contains" is the tendency to return to its own roots.


Of course when capitalism turns into corporatism, it heads for feudalism, which tends to end up being contrary to human nature because it involves tyranny. At that point the basic inclinations of human nature that fueled the initial capitalism will turn against it: people without real freedom are not productive.
 
Other systems "contain" the seeds of their own destruction because of human nature. Human nature says if I have something you want and you have something I want, we can trade (this is an extension of the fact of self-ownership).

But that matter of freely trading is the foundation of capitalism. So what capitalism "contains" is the tendency to return to its own roots.


Of course when capitalism turns into corporatism, it heads for feudalism, which tends to end up being contrary to human nature because it involves tyranny. At that point the basic inclinations of human nature that fueled the initial capitalism will turn against it: people without real freedom are not productive.

Yes, I agree primitive capitalism is a very natural phenomenon.
What I meant to say was that capitalism is inherently unstable AND a closed system. We seem unable to find an alternative even when the system is killing us.
 
i didnt read your whole post, but its clear to understand why those with lesser education tend to support conservative causes.
 
From John Galts statement in Atlas Shrugged......................

I am a trader. I earn what I get in trade for what I produce. I ask for nothing more or nothing less than what I earn. That is justice. I don't force anyone to trade with me; I only trade for mutual benefit. Force is the great evil that has no place in a rational world. One may never force another human to act against his/her judgment. If you deny a man's right to Reason, you must also deny your right to your own judgment. Yet you have allowed your world to be run by means of force, by men who claim that fear and joy are equal incentives, but that fear and force are more practical.
You've allowed such men to occupy positions of power in your world by preaching that all men are evil from the moment they're born. When men believe this, they see nothing wrong in acting in any way they please. The name of this absurdity is 'original sin'. That's inmpossible. That which is outside the possibility of choice is also outside the province of morality. To call sin that which is outside man's choice is a mockery of justice. To say that men are born with a free will but with a tendency toward evil is ridiculous. If the tendency is one of choice, it doesn't come at birth. If it is not a tendency of choice, then man's will is not free.

And then there's your 'brother-love' morality. Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you? Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take?

Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his. You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab.

You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt. Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth.

Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than ikts neighbors. Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others.

To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil.

If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it.

The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:

I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.
 
From John Galts statement in Atlas Shrugged......................

I am a trader. I earn what I get in trade for what I produce. I ask for nothing more or nothing less than what I earn. That is justice. I don't force anyone to trade with me; I only trade for mutual benefit. Force is the great evil that has no place in a rational world. One may never force another human to act against his/her judgment. If you deny a man's right to Reason, you must also deny your right to your own judgment. Yet you have allowed your world to be run by means of force, by men who claim that fear and joy are equal incentives, but that fear and force are more practical.
You've allowed such men to occupy positions of power in your world by preaching that all men are evil from the moment they're born. When men believe this, they see nothing wrong in acting in any way they please. The name of this absurdity is 'original sin'. That's inmpossible. That which is outside the possibility of choice is also outside the province of morality. To call sin that which is outside man's choice is a mockery of justice. To say that men are born with a free will but with a tendency toward evil is ridiculous. If the tendency is one of choice, it doesn't come at birth. If it is not a tendency of choice, then man's will is not free.

I like this a lot. But regulation is necessary, lest we go back to the 18th century which was characterized by trusts and people owning 80% of the market. Competition is good because it drives prices down and makes life a little easier for people. But the problem here is that big companies have made it difficult for others to start their own business and compete. I know many dentists who've had trouble managing their Ma & Pa business when there is a Super mart dental office in the center of the city.

And then there's your 'brother-love' morality. Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you? Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take?

Because life becomes petty if you care only about yourself. You exist in a world of 6 billion people and they all feel and hurt just like you. To ignore them is to truly be detached from human roots. I will admit that you earned that money and you should be able to control that money because it is yours ( With the governments commission taken, because they facilitate your business and they own your dollar bills legally) but at the same time helping others is a human thing. I understand that your intent isn't malice, but the reality is that you turn a blind eye to the world and attempt to validate your 100 years of decent living. The world will go on , but you won't.

Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his. You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab.

From a strictly philosophical stand point, no one deserves anything. That is a simple proof of nature. like I've said before I don't personally believe that everyone should make the same amount of money. But that begins to enter the just world concept.

You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt. Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth.

Ok agreed, but again I'm sensing a lot of just world belief in your view of the world. You forget the fact that luck exists and that if you're a farmer and work extremely hard if luck is against you then you'll never receive a crop.

Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than ikts neighbors. Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others.

Morality is a term. Consciousness is not.

To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil.

False dilemma and philosophical trash.

If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it.

The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:

I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine.


Honestly your statement was even worse then Kris's. Your concept of a just world, your constant need to use argumentative fallacies to rationalize your world view. I'll admit your statement I was fine with just until you began to preach the fallacies of false of false dilemma and slippery slope. If you believe that moderation and consensus with those who you falsely and childishly attribute to be evil then you're obviously either a diluted child of 15 or a very hopeless libertarian.

I will tell you right now I like my money. I think I deserve what I get and what not. But the reality is that I understand that the world isn't a vacuum and that there are thousands of factors which make it turn. I also understand one thing you don't, my permanence in terms of the world. I will die, but who will carry on my art and my skill if not for others who were allowed? Who will continue the progress of the world if not through funding. You need to see that the world just isn't so simple.
 
Again with the shit filled elitist non-logic of the left.1


Not really, its a simple psychological concept. Lower classes are sociologically usually under educated and thus rely on heuristic processing versus systematic and thus subscribe highly to the just world concept. ( John & Clark 1990)
The just world concept makes one believe that if you work hard you'll get something and those who are poor are those who do not work hard enough. This however is a cognitive and logical fault of which is completely incorrect. The republican party however has for the most part welcomed these delusional people into its ranks because they seriously think that one day their hard work will make them rich. There's also the concept of high religiosity associated with both parties. Which provides a strong correlation between both a highly religion audience and the republican party. ( Donn Bryne 1998 )

It's basically pretty strong logic supported by experiments and correlative studies performed by psychologists. Btw if you aren't familiar those are citations for my argument.
 
i didnt read your whole post, but its clear to understand why those with lesser education tend to support conservative causes.

Again with the shit filled elitist non-logic of the left.1

Not really, its a simple psychological concept. Lower classes are sociologically usually under educated and thus rely on heuristic processing versus systematic and thus subscribe highly to the just world concept. ( John & Clark 1990)
The just world concept makes one believe that if you work hard you'll get something and those who are poor are those who do not work hard enough. This however is a cognitive and logical fault of which is completely incorrect. The republican party however has for the most part welcomed these delusional people into its ranks because they seriously think that one day their hard work will make them rich. There's also the concept of high religiosity associated with both parties. Which provides a strong correlation between both a highly religion audience and the republican party. ( Donn Bryne 1998 )

It's basically pretty strong logic supported by experiments and correlative studies performed by psychologists. Btw if you aren't familiar those are citations for my argument.

Although you're disagreeing with fasteddy, you're also arguing contrary to the original claim. Applying clear thought, evanrick's statement definitely is "shit-filled... non-logic", for the simple fact that the post on which he was commenting did the exact opposite of his assertion: it went left, not right. Historically, that's been as common as the other.
 
Concerning John Galt:

that philosophy is suited only for a world in which the retirement plan for the poor is a bullet in the head.

It's worse than that. Ayn Rand has become a religous prophet for apologists for our present economic condition (though thankfully mostly confined to the United States). Now this will not do.
If something walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck .... then it is a duck.
 
Honestly your statement was even worse then Kris's. Your concept of a just world, your constant need to use argumentative fallacies to rationalize your world view. I'll admit your statement I was fine with just until you began to preach the fallacies of false of false dilemma and slippery slope. If you believe that moderation and consensus with those who you falsely and childishly attribute to be evil then you're obviously either a diluted child of 15 or a very hopeless libertarian.

I will tell you right now I like my money. I think I deserve what I get and what not. But the reality is that I understand that the world isn't a vacuum and that there are thousands of factors which make it turn. I also understand one thing you don't, my permanence in terms of the world. I will die, but who will carry on my art and my skill if not for others who were allowed? Who will continue the progress of the world if not through funding. You need to see that the world just isn't so simple.

Actually the world is that simple. It has been for ever. It gets complicated when those who use class envy, hatred, and demogogery attempt to reward those who would loot the work of others and distribute it to those who will not. As you don't know me, don't arrogantly presume what I do and do not understand. Socialism is not only morally bankrupt, it is inefficient and unwieldy and lends itself by its very structure to corruption. Our current problems are not the excesses of capitalism, rather the result of trying to impose socialist ideals in a free market economy, it can't work except at the point of a gun. Folks just resist being mugged by their government in order to reward an entitlement class who falsely believe they are owed something simply because they exist.
 
Concerning John Galt:

that philosophy is suited only for a world in which the retirement plan for the poor is a bullet in the head.

Were the poor shot in the head prior to Social Security???? I don't seem to remember reading that in history class.
 
Honestly your statement was even worse then Kris's. Your concept of a just world, your constant need to use argumentative fallacies to rationalize your world view. I'll admit your statement I was fine with just until you began to preach the fallacies of false of false dilemma and slippery slope. If you believe that moderation and consensus with those who you falsely and childishly attribute to be evil then you're obviously either a diluted child of 15 or a very hopeless libertarian.

I will tell you right now I like my money. I think I deserve what I get and what not. But the reality is that I understand that the world isn't a vacuum and that there are thousands of factors which make it turn. I also understand one thing you don't, my permanence in terms of the world. I will die, but who will carry on my art and my skill if not for others who were allowed? Who will continue the progress of the world if not through funding. You need to see that the world just isn't so simple.

It's not my statement as I made clear at the beginning. It is a small portion of the essay by John Galt in Atlas Shrugged. But I find little if anything to disagree with.
 
Actually the world is that simple. It has been for ever. It gets complicated when those who use class envy, hatred, and demogogery attempt to reward those who would loot the work of others and distribute it to those who will not. As you don't know me, don't arrogantly presume what I do and do not understand. Socialism is not only morally bankrupt, it is inefficient and unwieldy and lends itself by its very structure to corruption. Our current problems are not the excesses of capitalism, rather the result of trying to impose socialist ideals in a free market economy, it can't work except at the point of a gun. Folks just resist being mugged by their government in order to reward an entitlement class who falsely believe they are owed something simply because they exist.

The world isn't simple. Nothing in the world is so clear cut and sheerly simple. Anyways you're just recycling crap from your other paragraph into this and avoiding any intellectual argument with my concepts. Basically all you've done is close yourself off and rationalized your moronic views. Of course socialism isn't the perfect or very effective, but there are systems which can be created from blending together multiple view points of capitalism and socialism into a productive motor. In the end you know nothing, you want a world where you live for yourself. Well my friend guess what every day you interact with hundreds of people, you subsidize education and pay for things which everyone obtains. You're just a small piece in this world who will die, you do not effectively matter in the long run so get off your high pedestal and open up your eyes.
 
I'm a political theory PhD student who generally utilizes a Marxist framework. I'd say that this thread has a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about Marx. He's a brilliant and complicated thinker who requires a lot of nuance. People also seem to be fond of pretty stubbornly wearing their philosophical affiliations on their sleeves here, haha. I read each post and it's just like "Ok, Marx, Sartre, Hobbes, Freud ad infinitum" haha.
 
This thread is about the ills of capitalism. Just look around you. What do you see?
 
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