the latest Israel-Palistine conflicts ...

[SoulSearcher]

Jews are guests everywhere since they were driven out of their home. Christians never had a homeland, they're not a people.

Democracy has about as good a record at peace as monarchies, btw.

Are you serious? What generation are you from? Jews are not "a people" any more than Christians or any other community. They are a people because they decided they wanted to be a people. They had a homeland, because they decided that that was their homeland. Ancient Hebrews were only one of many peoples who had inhabited ancient Palestine, and there were people already living there before Abraham and his crowd moved there from Iraq, and there were people there after they left. It was a continuum of occupations by different groups, and the Jewish period in Palestine was certainly not the longest, then how does it remain a "Jewish homeland" and not say Assyrian, or Canaanite, or Jebusite, or Arab, or Persian?

I can tell you what I think personally, I am Jewish and I grew up in Israel, but when I look at the bunch of Russian immigrants in my city, I certainly do not think they belong in the Middle East or as part of my people, and wish they would all pack up and go back to Russia or whereever they came from. We are only a people if we say so. And not because Christian Zionists want us to be. When I see an Ethiopian Jew or a Russian Jew, I feel like we have nothing to do with each other, unless we agree that we do. Besides, the Israeli Interior Affairs ministry frequently decries the fact that a huge percent of the so called "Jews" doing aliyah are Slavs wanting to be Jewish because they have it better in Israeli welfare state than in a lot of ex-Soviet states. There you have it. SO, even if the Ancient Hebrews had a homeland, it is absurd to think that blonde and blue eyed bagel munching Europeans can all of a sudden claim that "homeland".

 

[manofsummer]

1. WP isn't illegal under international law; it would be covered under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and it isn't. Many nations have it in their arsenals, primarily for use generating smokescreens; only a handful have actually used it in combat (Russia and the U.S. are in that number).
2. When terrorists use a hospital as a military post, it becomes a military target.
3. Accidents happen in war.

Accident, you said?

3 Israeli civilians were killed.
537 Palestinian civilians killed.

It's obvious wich number can be justified as an accident, although no targeting of civilians is justifiable, but I'm going by your flawed logic.
To this date, some Americans still defend their bombing of Hiroshima as an act of self defense, while they label any Arab military activity against Israel, that inevitably causes a few civilian casualties, as "terrorism"?

225 Palestinian civilians were killed on the first day of the Israeli attack. Was that also an accident?

 

[Kulindahr]

Accident, you said?

3 Israeli civilians were killed.
537 Palestinian civilians killed.

It's obvious wich number can be justified as an accident, although no targeting of civilians is justifiable, but I'm going by your flawed logic.
To this date, some Americans still defend their bombing of Hiroshima as an act of self defense, while they label any Arab military activity against Israel, that inevitably causes a few civilian casualties, as "terrorism"?

225 Palestinian civilians were killed on the first day of the Israeli attack. Was that also an accident?

When the terrorists park their military stuff in civilian places, and the IDF warns the civilians to get out of there, on the Israeli side its an accident. On the "Palestinian" side, those people who didn't heed the warning volunteered to be killed, no differently than when people on a volcano are told it's going to blow, and they stay.

Your numbers mean absolutely nothing without more information. You're playing in statistics in the way similar to what gives you the "fact" that every human has one testicle and one mammary.

I don't know where you're getting your news, but both BBC and Reuters have noted that the hundreds of rockets fired from Hamas-Gaza were just fired into Israeli civilian areas without any specific aim -- that's terrorism. Israel, OTOH, aims, and at military targets.

 

[Kulindahr]

Jewish ownership of the area lasted many centuries, with some interruptions, and even those interruptions didn't entirely move the Jews out of the land. The Jews never surrendered their land, and some of the people continued to occupy it continuously -- they have never abandoned their homeland.

Now Jews are coming back from all over, and they are Jews by the traditional definition for ages back: if you have a Jewish mother, you're Jewish, regardless of the father. It's that inheritance that makes the Jews a people.
Of course under the Old Testament rules others can join the Jews, and they become part of that people. Those are the ones who are Jews because they want to be; the rest are by birth.

 

[manofsummer]

Israel, OTOH, aims, and at military targets.

If Israel really aims at military targets, the number of dead Palestinian children wouldn't have surpassed that of Hamas militants. And just curious, when Israelis warn civilians minutes before the raid, what do they exactly tell them: "Hi, you're going to die"?

 

[Kulindahr]

If Israel really aims at military targets, the number of dead Palestinian children wouldn't have surpassed that of Hamas militants. And just curious, when Israelis warn civilians minutes before the raid, what do they exactly tell them: "Hi, you're going to die"?

Do you have a grasp on the reality there?
Hamas deliberately parks their military stuff in hospitals and schools. And they define all "Palestinians" as fighters from age 12 and up. So when Israel strikes those locations, it's only fair to count only those under age 12 as civilians.

And when Israel warns people, they tell them to get out, because the place is going to be hit.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Jewish ownership of the area lasted many centuries, with some interruptions, and even those interruptions didn't entirely move the Jews out of the land. The Jews never surrendered their land, and some of the people continued to occupy it continuously -- they have never abandoned their homeland.

Now Jews are coming back from all over, and they are Jews by the traditional definition for ages back: if you have a Jewish mother, you're Jewish, regardless of the father. It's that inheritance that makes the Jews a people.
Of course under the Old Testament rules others can join the Jews, and they become part of that people. Those are the ones who are Jews because they want to be; the rest are by birth.

I don't think you understood my point, since I see that you continue to say "their land", and "the Jews". Let me tell you this, when Israel was made, and the white Jews moved en masse to Israel, there were also migrations of white Jews against native Jews and Middle/Near Eastern Jews, that Israel brown Jews, the so called Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews. Guess what, the white Europeans got all the best housing, the best jobs, the best farmland, the best everything. There was so much organised and institutionalised racism by the even had its own Black Panther movement. If "Jews" are "coming back", as you'd say, we wouldn't have this phenomenon. There is no universally accepted definition of what a Jew is, but please get over this old worn out ideas. I don't know how to explain things better to you, but you seem to really be misguided with your old textbook definitions of "land ownership", "peoplehood", etc, that have long been archaic in academia. Maybe you need re-schooling?

 

[Kulindahr]

Academia can take the Middle East conflict and shove it up its collective ass, so they can get a touch of reality.

The definition of a Jew as someone with a Jewish mother has been that way since time immemorial. Just because a million people all have Jewish mothers doesn't mean they'll get along. And whatever the results, it provides for there being blond Jews, black Jews, brown Jews, even Oriental Jews.

"Land ownership" is a human phenomenon. I don't know how your academics want to define it away, unless they're communists. Everyone in the world understands what it means to own land, despite whatever daydreams your academics may spin. It's the basis of, well, how we know what belongs to whom.

 

[Kulindahr]

RIGHT ON! The only way we, as Americans, will help peace in the Middle East is to give up our Zionist-centricity and be objective. We need to call Israel on their shit just as much as we do Hammas.

So far, Israel is called on things far more than Hamas. Israel runs a legitimate military operation, and gets screeched at, but Hamas runs terrorist ops, and gets comforted.

No one owns the land.

Three cheers for communism!

Kulindahr fails in his logic. By his standards Native American tribes would have every right to bomb Washington DC for American occupation of what was once their homeland.

Hardly a valid parallel. Israel acquired their land legally.
Perhaps the Amerinds have a better claim to using violence, but their side of the issue is that of the Israelis: they owned the land, and it was taken.
What the Amerinds should do is demand statehood for all their reservations.

The great thing about being American and having Democracy is that it is all of our land, not just one nationality or religion.

Um... we only have one nationality -- American.

 

[Kedouracious]

"Land ownership" is a human phenomenon. I don't know how your academics want to define it away, unless they're communists. Everyone in the world understands what it means to own land, despite whatever daydreams your academics may spin. It's the basis of, well, how we know what belongs to whom.

Oh yeah, and we all know so well what your kind do to people who may not share your ideas of land ownership, right? mhmmmm, Native Indians.

 

[Kedouracious]

Hey, Im new to this website, wow, all kinds of stuff happening here huh?

 

[Kulindahr]

Right Doctors and scholars who have been studying this issue their entire adult life have no sense of it. What makes your bias so righteous? You haven't argued convincingly at all that Israel is anything more than an occupier really well supported by the West.

Your memory is bad.

I'll summarize:

Israel acquired the land legally. It is theirs.
Land ownership is a basic principle not just of economics, but of civilization.
The Arabs declared war on Israel in 1948, and have never stopped.
The "government" in Gaza is a terrorist organization dedicated to the elimination of Jews (and their friends) worldwide, and thus has no moral legitimacy.
When someone is attacked, the means and measures of their defense are theirs to choose. Israel has done so.

Israel has never been an occupier except when taking land from enemies who were trying to take theirs -- and they've given back more than was wise, bending over backwards to try to have peace.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh yeah, and we all know so well what your kind do to people who may not share your ideas of land ownership, right? mhmmmm, Native Indians.

"MY Kind"?

Oh, you mean me with Native American blood?
Native tribes had very clear ideas of land ownership, as all humans have. They knew which land was Sioux, which Commanche, which Killamook, which Cherokee.

My ancestors were on both sides of the land theft in North America (well, except I have no Spanish ancestors (that I'm aware of ). And the only thing I can think of that would be fair to my native side would be to make each reservation its own state, with its own Senators in Congress.

My "immigrant" side recalls that Manhattan was supposedly purchased, but my native side knows that it was leased: the natives understood land ownership, and had no intent of letting go of theirs.

Ideally, we'd all be paying leasing fees for the whole country to all of us with native blood.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Your memory is bad.

I'll summarize:

Israel acquired the land legally. It is theirs.
Land ownership is a basic principle not just of economics, but of civilization.
The Arabs declared war on Israel in 1948, and have never stopped.
The "government" in Gaza is a terrorist organization dedicated to the elimination of Jews (and their friends) worldwide, and thus has no moral legitimacy.
When someone is attacked, the means and measures of their defense are theirs to choose. Israel has done so.

Israel has never been an occupier except when taking land from enemies who were trying to take theirs -- and they've given back more than was wise, bending over backwards to try to have peace.

Haha, ok, are you really old or something? When the UN voted for the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state, the UN consisted of about 50 something countries, mostly European and Western, as most countries had not gained proper independence. During the voting, there was not even the necessary 2/3 majority, so the US went around threatening to withhold aid from a number of countries to pressure them to vote for the partition. And it was passed. So, the "legality" that you cite is basically Europe and the US imposing their will on the Arab population. "Legality" is hardly something that remains solid and always credible. So, even our great Ariel Sharon would have disagreed with your sanitised version of Israeli history. As I've said before, you reaallyyy need some re-schooling. I would love for you to go to Israel and talk to some college students there. You'd be more than surprised.

 

[Kulindahr]

No they didn't. After the 1948 partition plan was refused they stormed in and took it. And they built nuclear weapons and a huge army to defy anyone that tried to take it back. If that is legal in your book go to law school. The US and the UK had more legal right to enter Iraq than Israel had to nation build on top of Palestine.

Excuse you?
Israel did not attack first -- the Arabs decided that there shouldn't be an Israel, and attacked, in spite of international law. Under that law, Israel had valid claim to establishing a state. Arabs were already engaging in violence and other maneuvers against the Jews even before '48, but then they turned to war.
The Jews, set on and outnumbered, defended themselves. The only land they took that they hadn't already paid for was that of the Arabs and others who fled, having been taught by propaganda that Jews were devils.
Israel was, and always has been, ready to welcome others than Jews as citizens. But these "Palestinians" aren't interested in sharing life in a peaceful state; they want the streets to run with Jewish blood.

The U.S. and U.K. had no right to enter Iraq; that was an immoral act. The Jews had been promised a homeland by the international community, right where they were, and when others tried to take it away, they fought to keep it. The law was on their side.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Hey, Im new to this website, wow, all kinds of stuff happening here huh?

Hey, wrong area for intros. But welcome. Are yuo really Israeli? I am too, I'll message you privately. But yeah, Native Indians didn't particularly have the same ideas on private ownership of land, like the white invaders did. Such concepts are only universal in this guy's mind.

 

[Kulindahr]

Hey, wrong area for intros. But welcome. Are yuo really Israeli? I am too, I'll message you privately. But yeah, Native Indians didn't particularly have the same ideas on private ownership of land, like the white invaders did. Such concepts are only universal in this guy's mind.

Yes, they did. They just held it differently.

 

[tonyboy]

hamas = evil

the palestinians hitched their wagon to evil

i feel sorry for them but .........

they made their bed

and hamas uses innocents as shields

u can only take so much

would love to see israel take them out for good

but the world will not allow it

PC bullshit that it is

euros that cow tow as a press op

scary world

immediate reaction is israel is in the right and i support them fully

as should the U.S. govt and all reasonable peaceful people

Once again Chance1 and the post preceding by cityboy-stl get's it exactly right.
Hamas and Hezbollah are the attackers... if they'd just drop the attacks their people could live in peace... but they don't do that... the 'leaders', the so called leaders that are generally self-appointed don't want peace. Their position in their society would be useless if they gave up the power that they have to make war against a country that just wants to live in peace...a country that is a democracy... just wants to be left alone.

All it would take to stop this entire thing is if Hamas and Hezbollah would just stop sending rockets in to Israel. Simple as that.

 

[SoulSearcher]

I would not be surprised because U.S. too has campuses and "bright" students that are brainwashed by leftists academics to hate everything about their governments, armies history and feel constant self guilt. Just because Israeli college students are now protesting in thousands against IDF action, it doesn't give them any high moral ground or authority to the debate because just like them, there are voices of the extreme left like Betslehem and professors like Benny Morris (plagiarized academic works) who basically would adopt a 1 Palestinian state and be happy to live as a second class citizens cause somehow these minds feel like they're Gandis, there are Israelis who despise self defeating minds and have a different version of history and support their government action against Palestinian terror.

Hmmm, I wonder who I should be more worried about, leftist professors who are indoctrinating us, or foreign Jews who are manipulating our national life? Will have to think about it. And btw, Benny Morris is no leftist, he's virulently Zionist and anti-Arab, he frequently says that Israel did commit all the crimes that the military records show anyways, and that we were justified in doing so, as a matter of nation building.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Right, now there are foreign Jews and "authentic" Israeli Humus eating Jews? Don't forget you're just as a foreigner until Mashiach comes, to Israel than a Jew still living in Russia, Spain, U.S. or Canada only difference is time of your ancestral Alyia....

Oh come on, you know thats not true, we have always stayed around the area and are closer to historical jews in all respects, the Jews in Spain accompanied the Arabs who ruled the area, don't compare us to the Ashkenazis and the Russians, you know better. Its not just about Aliyah, you know the dynamics of our co-existence in Israel, its more subtle now, but its still very clear. You need to keep away from those Russians, we're already losing so many of our young marrying into them.