the latest Israel-Palistine conflicts ...

[SoulSearcher]

** way off topic alert **

have you seen the movie Defiance?

if not, do.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1034303/

You're way off topic, but I have seen the film, it was a typical hollywood product, with lots of historical omissions. Have you heard of the term "Holocaust Industry", maybe you could look it up.

 

[SoulSearcher]

I'm sorry I do not agree with Sefardi/Mizrahi somehow having closer roots to what our culture is than Ashkanzai European Jews. Yes, there have been great splits in customs and many things but at the end of the day the Orthodox, Haredim of Ahkenazi roots have preserved a lot in Torah Judaism through ages of tortures and forced assimilation.

I'm not going to judge Russian Jews who bare no fault that their grandfathers were forced into Gulags for resembling anything Jewish, and so it is hard for them to have an identity but I know many Russians that are more into Bale Teshuva and Jews at heart than your typical Mizrahi Jew hooking up in Eilat behind his father's back or putting on Tefilin in the morning and ripping off his business partner.

All I do know is that one day this will all be resolved; my job is to not await it but live life according to my values and teaching of Torah.

They got you boy, live in Israel and then you will see what I'm talking about. Oh and thanks for reminding me of our stereotypes, particularly liked the ripping off part. And you forgot to mention that we're all lazy, and backward, and uneducated, and a bit too Middle Eastern.

 

[SoulSearcher]

LOL

I cried when the two older brothers hugged at the end

btw-- i see that you are too well educated for me to cross swords with

God I'd been dying to hear this from you.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Norman Finkelstein fan? I hope you're not into soft core revisionism at least. Ironically his "Holocaust Industry" only united the antisemites and strengthened his wealth.

No, not a fan. Did read the book, and didn't like it at the time, until I moved to the US, and saw the industry in action, at least facets of it. Labels of anti-semitism at every criticism of government policies is part of the industry.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Interesting. Kind of like when people scream racism when one is opposed to welfare or affirmative action.

Kinda, but not quite, since I personally know a racist who jumps on the anti-affirmative action bandwagon because there is hardly other acceptable ways of demonstrating his racist tendencies.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Now let me guess Yad Hashem is also part of this industry only on Israel's side? I don't want to continue on subject of "Holocaust Industry" cause it boils my blood how people can even think of this. I guess African Americans are also creating some industry because they're passionate to remember history and atrocity of slavery and continue the education after 200 years from the fact.....

Education about the Holocaust is hardly the problem, we want people to know and never forget. The problem is when certain people use the Holocaust as a political weapon, to silence criticism that otherwise would or could be legitimate. As simple as that. I mean I'm not like 100% against the industry, I have benefited personally from it myself, but you know this little side in me, that also feels guilty about it.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Kind of. Like when we learn it was black africans selling their brothers into slavery and getting rich rich rich not to mention having slaves of their own. And was actually whites in Europe that first banned the practice of slavery.
Truth with a twist of objectivity please.

Oh yeah, and the colonialism and the civilising mission that followed afterwards also was just like so great, ever so thankful to the whites for carrying the "white men's burden".

 

[Kulindahr]

You're not excused. Re read your history book. You are so wrong it is so funny to read your posts. A truely great laugh. Neither Israel or the Arabs followed UN resolution 181. Israel just had all the big guns and weapons and still do.

The Israelis were out-weaponed in '48. Till the moment the Arabs began the violence, only non-Jews in the British mandate were allowed any significant weapons. They had to make do with what they and friends could smuggle in for them.
Palestine at the time was like Washington, D.C. today: the criminals were allowed to be armed, but the law-abiding were not.

The USA is also gulty of terrorism, against Native Americans and many would argue Japan.

Terrorism against Amerinds... well, some.
So? Find me someone alive today who participated in that, and I'll entertain the notion that it's relevant.

Americans don't want to admit what Israel has done is wrong because we have our own horror against the Native Americans that we are still in denial about as a country.

Denial??!
Where the frak did you go to school? When I was student teaching, history textbooks practically wailed and mourned over what was done under "Manifest Destiny", apologizing on every other page. College texts go to great length to paint the U.S. as evil, and universities have Native American Weeks, Native American Studies, Native American Centers. You can't travel the west (unless you just use interstates) without coming across monuments to travesties.
Some Native Americans at OSU when I was there were both embarrassed and infuriated by all of that -- quite rightly, they wanted the wrongs addressed, not acts of contrition.

 

[Kulindahr]

More reason to ditch nationalism and embrace humanism.

That's a nice dream, but as with the morality God handed down to Israel, it's gonna take many, many generations to reach -- there are just too many people into violence, like the terrorist Hamas who want every Jew in the world dead.
And the way to achieve it is not to force people to live together; then you'll just get something that looks like inner cities in America, with gang violence. The way to achieve it is to define whose land is whose, and enforce that. Once people really believe that their neighbors aren't going to violate what is theirs will borders start to fade and seem silly.
Europe has been working on unity since WW II, and though it has some structures set up, there's still fighting between national interests. Eliminate all the borders within the E.C., and you'll still get fighting between national interests, because national identities only fade when the people involve see a reason to identify themselves with something higher.
It's very much like the transition from tribalism to nationhood, something that took the Franks a millennium. Maybe, if we could get Hamas (and their sponsors Iran) to chill, and the rest of the terrorists, and not only guarantee Israel's borders but make it stick, in a thousand years they might be getting along.
But don't count on it -- there are many, many people in lands east of Greece who still hate Greeks because of some dude named Alexandros.

I'm just asking that people be objective. I'm not defending Hammas but Im not gonna be a tool to Israel either.

We're being objective. The start of objectivity here is to face that the Arabs and others in the area sucked up hatred of Jews from the Nazis, started trying to drive Jews out who had legally bought property in their ancient homeland, and attacked once the Mandate ended in order to kill all the Jews.
That's the heritage of Hamas and the P.L.O., who view all the treaties as just tools with which to pursue their objective, the spilling of all Jewish blood.

 

[Kulindahr]

Ok , a hungry homeless trio breaks into your home during winter at 3:00am. In their minds they are cold and hungry and you have warmth and food so they believe they are justified.

do you call the police?

I shoot the one with a weapon, feed the other two and tell them to get the hell out, and then I call the police and report one violent intruder that I eliminated.


Actually this isn't a bad analogy: the Jews were the homeowners, and the Arabs wanted to evict them by violence. They didn't manage it, so now they're blaming Israel for their own misfortunes.
So the apologists for the "Palestinians" are blaming the victim.

... except, that the Israelis have on occasion reacted by shooting all the intruders because one has a knife.

Tough even that is complicated by the fact that the company of intruders claim that all of them have knives, so how do you know who to shoot?

The easiest thing is to ban the intruders from the neighborhood, but then they just throw things at you. Do you go after them, or do you just take it?

 

[Kulindahr]

Even if I did call the police that wouldn't mean they were wrong. At odds would be my right to property and privacy vs their right to life. And this situation is a little different than decands of complicated back and forth between Israel and Palestine.

So now you believe in property?

Basic rule of liberty: one person's rights end where the other person's begin. Their right to food and housing does not include violating your right to property.

Now if they'd camped on your front porch and knocked in the morning begging for breakfast, it would be a different story.

 

[Kulindahr]

individual property & privacy rights are stalwarts of capitalism or USA republicanism.

Well, they're rather essential conditions, anyway.
That's why the Native Americans never developed capitalism; although they also had the property concept, it was communally held by the tribe, which makes capitalism pretty much impossible. It's that individual aspect, i.e. how the property is assigned, that makes the difference.
And of course without privacy, capitalism would be a very different beast -- just think what it would be like if people from Aeroflot could just wander in and take notes on how Boeing is doing things....

IC. I think that is a matter of interpretation. By your logic so would be right to due process, freedom of speech and freedom to assemble, none of which are allowed under communism or extreme socialism and are essential to guarantee freedom from the state. I don't see how Roe v. Wade, a right to privacy issue, has much to do with capitalism less you are talking about the abortionists getting rich off of the baby holocaust.

Right to due process is in one aspect a corollary of privacy and property both; without it, those two are meaningless. I'm not certain that freedom of speech, the press, or to assemble are integral to capitalism -- though freedom of association is; you have to be able to choose your employees, or whether to have any.

Emphasis on my last post, CnAnPB breaks into affrat21's apartment needing a place to stay = no problem!

Make him pay for the door.

 

[chance1]

i had a post about the hope that israel could finish the job - and eliminate hamas entirely ........

but alas it got "edited/deleted/whatever" by ..................

someone

an anti semitic someone perhaps?

not sure

just wanted to say

israel is in the right
hamas is in the wrong

the u.s. should support israel 100% here

hope this doesn't get edited/deleted by whomever disagrees