The next pandemic: DETRANSITIONERS!

[belamyi]

I think it does...obviously always an exclusionary radical feminist with here girls only club....but I now understand why she is so vocal since her literal exclusion of a trans woman ended up court.

Had this not become a lightning rod to draw attention to her 'safe space' app 'Giggle'...she would just be another vendor of a low use platform for a niche audience.

Lucky her though...she is able to monetize her rage.

I assumed you were pointing to some traumatizing experience with the predator nazi breeders to give a "reason" for being such a nazi suprwomanist...
She is simply born that why, and we knew that before reading the wikiarticle.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Again, cite the research.

What research? I was criticizing YOUR statement: where you said "I suspect that there are studies that will disclose the reasons behind detransitioning, particularly amount male to female transition and it follows a time-delay that follows the arc of increases by several years in similar to proportions to past studies. The reasons will likely be exogenous: family pressure, employment issues, societal pressure, et al."

Please cite YOUR research that shows most detransitioners detransition due to external factors like peer pressure, family pressure, societal pressure... But that the original transition is never due to those factors. Sources, please.

 

[KaraBulut]

Please cite YOUR research that shows most detransitioners detransition due to external factors like peer pressure, family pressure, societal pressure... But that the original transition is never due to those factors. Sources, please.

Done.

From Stanford University.

Factors Leading to "Detransition" Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis - PubMed

<span><b><i>Purpose:</i></b> There is a paucity of data regarding transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people who "detransition," or go back to living as their sex assigned at birth. This study examined reasons for past detransition among TGD people in the United States. <b><i>Methods:</i></b> A...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Purpose: There is a paucity of data regarding transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people who "detransition," or go back to living as their sex assigned at birth. This study examined reasons for past detransition among TGD people in the United States.
Methods: A secondary analysis was performed on data from the U.S. Transgender Survey, a cross-sectional nonprobability survey of 27,715 TGD adults in the United States. Participants were asked if they had ever detransitioned and to report driving factors, through multiple-choice options and free-text responses. A mixed-methods approach was used to analyze the data, creating qualitative codes for free-text responses and applying summative content analysis.
Results: A total of 17,151 (61.9%) participants reported that they had ever pursued gender affirmation, broadly defined. Of these, 2242 (13.1%) reported a history of detransition. Of those who had detransitioned, 82.5% reported at least one external driving factor. Frequently endorsed external factors included pressure from family and societal stigma. History of detransition was associated with male sex assigned at birth, nonbinary gender identity, bisexual sexual orientation, and having a family unsupportive of one's gender identity. A total of 15.9% of respondents reported at least one internal driving factor, including fluctuations in or uncertainty regarding gender identity.
Conclusion: Among TGD adults with a reported history of detransition, the vast majority reported that their detransition was driven by external pressures. Clinicians should be aware of these external pressures, how they may be modified, and the possibility that patients may once again seek gender affirmation in the future.

Same study was published in "LGBT Health" in May, 2021:

Factors Leading to “Detransition” Among Transgender and Gender Diverse People in the United States: A Mixed-Methods Analysis

Purpose: There is a paucity of data regarding transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people who “detransition,” or go back to living as their sex assigned at birth. This study examined reasons for past detransition among TGD people in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Results: A total of 17,151 (61.9%) participants reported that they had ever pursued gender affirmation, broadly defined. Of these, 2242 (13.1%) reported a history of detransition. Of those who had detransitioned, 82.5% reported at least one external driving factor. Frequently endorsed external factors included pressure from family and societal stigma. History of detransition was associated with male sex assigned at birth, nonbinary gender identity, bisexual sexual orientation, and having a family unsupportive of one's gender identity. A total of 15.9% of respondents reported at least one internal driving factor, including fluctuations in or uncertainty regarding gender identity.

Conclusion: Among TGD adults with a reported history of detransition, the vast majority reported that their detransition was driven by external pressures. Clinicians should be aware of these external pressures, how they may be modified, and the possibility that patients may once again seek gender affirmation in the future.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Done.

Wait a second... Are we even talking about the same thing? Does "transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people" mean only people who really transitioned or does it include the 'spicy straights" who call themselves queer or enby without ever medically transitioning? Also, "Participants were asked if they had ever detransitioned" makes it sound as if the term 'detransitioning' is used with a different meaning than most people would use. So let me get this straight: this thread is about people who REALLY transitioned (men who lost their dick, women who lost their boobs) and later decide to go and live as their birth sex again. Not cross-dressing men who go back to boy mode for their sister's wedding.

Now, I want to see studies that show people doing that because of "external pressure" because in my experience, there are more people who transition due to external pressure than detransition. Not apples and oranges.

 

[KaraBulut]

Wait a second... Are we even talking about the same thing? Does "transgender and gender diverse (TGD) people" mean only people who really transitioned or does it include the 'spicy straights" who call themselves queer or enby without ever medically transitioning?

Five pages in and you're just now asking this question?

From an earlier post...

... although the definition of "transition" and "detransition" are so loose these days that I'm not sure that anyone has a clear picture of what is happening.

The term transitioning means that they have elected to present and live full-time in a different gender. That is not a binary and it is not the same for every person. It can vary from someone who only modifies their clothes and uses prosthetics to present as a different gender, to the more medical solutions where someone has both pharmaceutical treatment, accompanied by top, bottom and cosmetic surgery.

Wikipedia defines the term very clearly:

Gender transition - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gender transition is the process of changing one's gender presentation or sex characteristics to accord with one's internal sense of gender identity – the idea of what it means to be a man or a woman,or to be non-binary, genderqueer, bigender, or pangender, or to be agender (genderless). For transgender and transsexual people, this process commonly involves reassignment therapy (which may include hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery), with their gender identity being opposite that of their birth-assigned sex. Transitioning might involve medical treatment, but it does not always involve it. Cross-dressers, drag queens, and drag kings tend not to transition, since their variant gender presentations are generally only adopted temporarily.

And it can also include intersex persons who have ambiguous genitalia but who chose to express as a gender other than the gender that doctors or parents chose for them.

One of the requirements of gender transition programs is that the client must live full-time in the other gender before pursuing reassignment surgeries. This would be considered transitioning and if they do not wish to go further, then returning to their original gender would qualify as detransitioning.

If, for the past 5 pages, you've been thinking that "detransitioning" means hitting the "surgical undo button", then you've been completely misunderstanding the subject and misinterpreting the statistics that you've been citing.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

The term transitioning means that they have elected to present and live full-time in a different gender. That is not a binary and it is not the same for every person. It can vary from someone who only modifies their clothes and uses prosthetics to present as a different gender, to the more medical solutions where someone has both pharmaceutical treatment, accompanied by top, bottom and cosmetic surgery.

OK, I understand that you and other Trans Right Activists (or allies) want to use the term so loosely, but that is not what this thread is about. You are, unintentionally perhaps, moving the goalposts.

I started this thread and made it very clear from the beginning that in this discussion, transitioning means FULLY transitioning: men losing their dick, women losing their boobs. And detransitioning means people who AFTER all of that, decide to go back to living as their birth sex.

That is how the general population has always used these terms. And yes, it is binary. Men and women calling themselves non-binary or genderfluid or the flavour of the month, without any sex-reassignment surgeries, are outside of the topic of this thread. Just so you know.

As for 'intersex' people:
1) People with DSD hate that term, so let's not use that anymore
2) People with DSD never asked to be thrown into the LGBTQIA2+ community, so let's leave them out.
3) While over 49% of people are XX and over 49% are XY, 99% of the others are X, XXX, XXY or XYY, which still makes them women if they don't have one or more Y chromosomes and male if they do. Nothing trans about them indeed.

 

[rareboy]

I think your pre-occupation with this topic is apparently not founded on a very good understanding of the facts or very good research and facts.

You have sensationalized it from the outset, even with the title suggesting that there is a 'pandemic'.

[Text: Removed]

Again, I ask, what is the issue you actually have with trans people? You seem to be quick to throw TERFs like Sall and others into the mix, but not to be honest and say why you are so prejudiced or fearful toward trans people.

If you can accept that there are people who are bi-sexual and on a spectrum of sexual preference, it is equally possible that there are people who experience the same with respect to gender.\

Your last post is most revealing. You think that gender is literally only about chromosomes.

I don't know why. You haven't provided any sound scientific basis for X and Y to solely define gender expression.

 

[belamyi]

A few weeks ago I read some comment in X or something, from someone pretending to be very undisputably clever and downto the matter by stating that, when a trans person's bones would be found in a few centuries, the pelvic angle would provide an evident proof of the gender of that person, which is like saying that the bones of any black person anywhere in the world would make obvious their African nationality while alive.

Gender is like nationality, it is what you are, not what fleshes you out materially (funny that people who always rejected "communist materialism" as an abomination, would otherwise resort to the coarse materiality of biology to declare what the psyche and "spiritual" essence of a person is actually like), and the best proof of it is that there are centuries of role playing and cosmetic gender differentiation through hairdos and clothingand what not, that have made of gender more of a social construct than a biological reality and "essence", and it's rich that people who have been forced to abandon (to a certain degree), that pants do not define men and long hair does not define women, now must resort to a positivist construct to pretend they are being "scientifically truthful" in their political pretense.

Oh, here it is...

Misleading claim that pelvic bone 'reveals binary sex' shared in anti-LGBTQ posts

A misleading claim that archaeologists can purely determine the sex of a person from the pelvic bone in their remains and that their conclusion is always either male or female has been shared tens of thousand of times by social media users in different countries. However, experts say it is...

factcheck.afp.com

 

[rareboy]

Somehow, too many people believe that gender and therefore gender expression is solely a matter of primary sexual organs and are determined to force fit everyone's behaviour into that model.

And beyond my comprehension when homosexuals take this stance.

 

[belamyi]

Somehow, too many people believe that gender and therefore gender expression is solely a matter of primary sexual organs and are determined to force fit everyone's behaviour into that model.

And beyond my comprehension when homosexuals take this stance.

rare, just like there is a continuum of sexualities, there is a continuum of mixed possibilities for everything else: if Republican or closeted gays, American socialists , progressive male chauvinists and black nazis can exist, you can have anything. ANYTHING.

A colourful world means REALLY colourful, with panthers eating up cute animals and all.

True acceptance is for the world as it is, not for the world as it should be... according to opposing views and beliefs.

 

[KaraBulut]

OK, I understand that you and other Trans Right Activists (or allies) want to use the term so loosely...

Ah, the inevitable ad hominem when the facts don't agree with the internal narrative.

As I stated elsewhere in the thread, I'm actually a skeptic on the medicalization of transgender treatment. I don't think the treatments have enough objective research to support their universal implementation, especially without adequate mental health screening. The influence of Russian money is also distorting research.

 

[belamyi]

Somehow, too many people believe that gender and therefore gender expression is solely a matter of primary sexual organs and are determined to force fit everyone's behaviour into that model.

And beyond my comprehension when homosexuals take this stance.

That's what real diversity is about...

there are dregs in everything, not just the cute ideal poster child creme of the crop part.

 

[belamyi]

Ah, the inevitable ad hominem when the facts don't agree with the internal narrative.

As I stated elsewhere in the thread, I'm actually a skeptic on the medicalization of transgender treatment. I don't think the treatments have enough objective research to support their universal implementation, especially without adequate mental health screening. The influence of Russian money is also distorting research.

Exactly: in America especially, the ground zero of our runaway business-dirven world, it is just another business "opportunity".

 

[KaraBulut]

Exactly: in America especially, the ground zero of our runaway business-dirven world, it is just another business "opportunity".

Not really. Maybe for the cosmetic surgery docs who work on adults. Most of the clinics for gender transition are at university-affiliated academic medical centers and they accept patients regardless of ability to pay.

 

[belamyi]

Not really. Maybe for the cosmetic surgery docs who work on adults. Most of the clinics for gender transition are at university-affiliated academic medical centers and they accept patients regardless of ability to pay.

Not really what I was pointing to: that transitioning (and detransitioning, why not), just opens some new wider espace for "business opportunity" for certain people... like the ones you mention, now that the issue has gone so mainstream.

 

[lefingum]

My main issues with the current trans activism (not gender dysphoric people / trans people per se, but the way the 'movement' is going):

1. Medicalization of children with puberty blockers, which are known to have serious adverse effects, ranging from sterility to anorgasmia, to problem with bone density to developing micropenis (which means there isn't enough penile tissue to even create a trans-vagina), brain swelling etc. The irony is, puberty has historically helped people to overcome gender dysphoria. NHS has very recently banned puberty blockers after extensive research showed it is causing more harm than good.

2. Concept of self-ID, which gives more importance to inner gender-identity than biological sex, and using this to allow people to access certain single-sex spaces and facilities originally not meant for them (i.e. males using female washroom or playing in their sports, sometimes with little to no transitioning). Trans-activists would say people are changing gender and not sex, but it doesn't matter. First, the word 'gender' is utterly ambiguous which unnecessarily derails the conversation. Second, places like bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons, sports team etc have historically been segregated on the basis of sex, not "inner gender identity". So unless a person has fully transitioned, they should not be using the facilities meant for the other sex.

3. The explosion of people coming out as trans-identified or some variation of non-binary identity makes me think of this as partly driven by social fad than actual biological factors. Abigail Shrier has a good book called "Irreversible Damage" on this issue, as well as a good youtube video on teenage girls suddenly coming out as transmasc). I do not like the way the woke marketers constantly put trans celebs and individuals on adverts or the way this issue is being marketed to the new generation (using terms like "people with penis", "menstruators", "chest-feeding", "pregnant men" in newspapers and articles everywhere). I do not know what they are teaching children on school, but it does seem like this gender ideology has gotten its way there and children are sneakily taught these concepts.

4. Less medical gate-keeping meaning there may be more medical malpractice, more regret rates and detransitioners in the future. A large chunk of these people are same-sex attracted, there is a high degree of people with autism, and having comorbidities of issues ranging from anorexia to bullimia etc.

Bonus: some of the activists are extremely harsh, and it is difficult to talk about these issues in your LGBT circle without being labelled a 'phobe'.

 

[KaraBulut]

My main issues with the current trans activism (not gender dysphoric people / trans people per se, but the way the 'movement' is going):

1. Medicalization of children with puberty blockers, which are known to have serious adverse effects, ranging from sterility to anorgasmia...

Bonus: some of the activists are extremely harsh, and it is difficult to talk about these issues in your LGBT circle without being labelled a 'phobe'.

#1 is an example, not the issue. The issue is that there isn't enough research and established protocols for providers to have certainty on balancing risk and harm.

It's apparent that there is a population who struggle with the difference between their body image and their gender identity. This population has a high risk profile for mental health issues, including suicidal ideation. By medicalizing the treatment, it is a struggle for healthcare providers to determine whether the risk mitigation for a patient who meets the criteria for distress due to gender dysphoria warrants treatment when the future implications of treatment (particularly hormone therapies) is unknown or uncertain.

And you are correct about activism not always being helpful. There are some members of the trans community who are working with researchers to help find safe protocols and to determine the success of the treatments. But sadly, there is a social media contingent who shout down anyone who asks the kinds of questions that evidence-based practice warrants.

I would also add activists from the evangelical community to the "shouters" who aren't helping. If Christian Nationalists were calling for more research or evidence-based guidelines for safe treatment, that would be helpful. Instead, they're hitching their wagon to politicians who are looking for an issue to "energize" their evangelical base, which is doing more harm to the trans community.

 

[lefingum]

If you can accept that there are people who are bi-sexual and on a spectrum of sexual preference, it is equally possible that there are people who experience the same with respect to gender.\

Your last post is most revealing. You think that gender is literally only about chromosomes.

I don't know why. You haven't provided any sound scientific basis for X and Y to solely define gender expression.

Somehow, too many people believe that gender and therefore gender expression is solely a matter of primary sexual organs and are determined to force fit everyone's behaviour into that model.

A few weeks ago I read some comment in X or something, from someone pretending to be very undisputably clever and downto the matter by stating that, when a trans person's bones would be found in a few centuries, the pelvic angle would provide an evident proof of the gender of that person, which is like saying that the bones of any black person anywhere in the world would make obvious their African nationality while alive.

Gender is like nationality, it is what you are, not what fleshes you out materially (funny that people who always rejected "communist materialism" as an abomination, would otherwise resort to the coarse materiality of biology to declare what the psyche and "spiritual" essence of a person is actually like), and the best proof of it is that there are centuries of role playing and cosmetic gender differentiation through hairdos and clothingand what not, that have made of gender more of a social construct than a biological reality and "essence", and it's rich that people who have been forced to abandon (to a certain degree), that pants do not define men and long hair does not define women, now must resort to a positivist construct to pretend they are being "scientifically truthful" in their political pretense.

Well, this is one of the problem with the word 'gender'. It is very ambiguous and people use it to mean all sorts of different things. This makes it very difficult to have a conversation about the trans topic as this word is the common word people throw around, and people mean different things by it. I will give you 4 common definitions of it:

1. First, gender was historically used as a synonym for 'biological sex' (i.e. if you are male/female/intersex). People preferred the word 'gender' as sex has a negative connotation (as sex also means 'having sex') so people used the word 'gender' as a euphemism. Even now, when people ask you for your gender in passport, national ID, birth certificate, forms etc, all they are asking is your biological sex. So this is probably the most common definition, that it's an euphemism for biological sex.

2. Second, gender is defined as gender expression, especially understood as the cultural stereotypes surrounding femininity and masculinity. This includes things like dressing style, hairstyle, toys people play with, preference for colors etc. This is mostly socially/culturally constructed and can differ from culture to culture, plus there can be various differences in the individual level as well. There is a better word for it: personality. People can have any shades of personality from 'very feminine' on one end to 'very masculine' on the other end.

3. Third, there is gender roles that society expects of each sex. Some of it is biology-based (like roles related to reproduction), some of it could be culturally determined as well.

4. Finally there is this concept of 'gender identity', that trans activists and others use the most. They will say there is an internal state of being male or female (or man or woman), or both or neither. That this can clash with their anatomical sex, leading to gender dysphoria.

When I say, "people can't change sex as that's scientifically impossible", trans activists often reply "people are just identifying as or transitioning to the opposite gender, not opposite sex". To that, I always ask, what they mean by gender, and I usually get no specific answer. That's why I gave the 4 definitions above, as people use the word gender to mean different things, but they usually fall into one of the 4 definitions.

If they mean definition #2 (cultural stereotypes associated with femininity and masculinity, like how you dress and present yourself to the word, or how feminine or masculine people are in their personality), then people should be able to dress and present themselves any way they like. Society should be accepting of people dressing and living their life like they want. Don't see the need to undergo medical transitioning if it's definition #2 they are talking about.

If they mean definition #4, then there are a number of problems with that. First, we do not know what causes people to say they have an inner gender identity that is at odds with their biological sex. Could it be neurological? Environmental influence later in life? If undergoing medical transitioning helps people overcome this gender dysphoria, they can go for it if they are adults. However, gender identity is an internal state of mind. Unless they have fully transitioned, one should not be using facilities meant for the opposite sex (i.e. males should not be in female bathrooms or prisons, just because they proclaim to have a female gender identity in their mind). The modern trans activism is trying to push this "self ID" concept, which will allow a man to literally become a "woman" by merely proclaiming that he feels like a woman internally, and with just a document he can now access all these female-only spaces (like female bathrooms, prisons, dorms etc) by claiming himself to have the gender identity of a woman. This is why you have male rapists (who still have his penis intact) like Karen White put into female prisons, just because he claimed to have a female gender identity. So definition #4 (inner gender identity) cannot be used to allow people access to sex-based rights of the other sex. In fact, people who feel a man (adult human male) is literally becoming a woman (adult human female) by simply identifying as such are people who think a male can become a female, in which case they are talking about definition #1. Despite the fact that these trans activists claim to separate 'sex from gender', I often see them conflating sex with gender.

And beyond my comprehension when homosexuals take this stance.

One reason is, a lot of these 'trans' identified youths are closeted homosexuals, struggling with internalized homophobia, and they think transitioning is a path to salvation. There is a disproportionately large number of same-sex attracted trans youths, especially in teenage girls seeking medical transitioning.

Another reason is, our sexual orientation is biological sex-based, not gender identity-based. I am a gay man, which means I am attracted to other men. A transman (biological female who identifies or even went through the process of transitioning to make themselves look like man) will not be in my dating pool (even theoretically). Even if he is indistinguishable from other men, a trans-penis will not be attractive to me. Major gay org like stonewall has started to redefine sexual orientation in terms of gender identity rather than actual physical sex of the person, which I find problematic.

I don't know if you know this, but lesbian dating sites are now full of straight men identifying as women, then identifying as lesbians (as they attracted to women). Many of these men haven't even gone through a formal process of transitioning, but are just putting in lipstick and keeping long hair to say they identify as women, and are attracted to women, so that makes them lesbians (transbians, a term they coined). My lesbian friend complained to the mods of the dating apps that men are in there trying to date lesbians, to which the mods replied that we have to respect people's gender identity, so now if these males say they are woman, they are woman, and if they say they are lesbians, then they are lesbians (in reality, they are straight men as most of them haven't even transitioned). she eventually gave up on the dating app due to the influx of 'transbians'.

I think biological sex should take precedence over people's perceived gender identity or gender expression.

 

[rareboy]

You seem to speak with such authority on all of this but provide no actual data to support your opinions.

Which is all they are from everything that I have read in the above posts.

And you, like the OP, are perfectly within your rights to have opinions on transexualism in exactly the same way that stright people who disagree with homosexuality are entitled to have opinions on why homosexuality is a perverse lifestyle choice.

But it doesn't make them right. Or the basis for public policy.

You may 'think' that biological sex should take precedence, but it is clear you don't really understand the complexities of biological sex....instead, like all the other anti-trans 'spokesmen', taking a reductive approach.

But you do provide insight into the dissonance in logic that allows homos to somehow create a safe space in their own minds for their attraction to cock by saying that our sexuality is 'biologically based'.

I suggest you might want to re-think your fundamental arguments.

 

[KaraBulut]

Well, this is one of the problem with the word 'gender'. It is very ambiguous and people use it to mean all sorts of different things.

And millennials and Gen Z view this as a feature, not a bug.

They are redefining gender as a continuum, much like the generations before them redefined sexual preference orientation as a continuum.