The next pandemic: DETRANSITIONERS!

[unloadonme]

And you, like the OP, are perfectly within your rights to have opinions on transexualism in exactly the same way that stright people who disagree with homosexuality are entitled to have opinions on why homosexuality is a perverse lifestyle choice.

But it doesn't make them right. Or the basis for public policy.

You may 'think' that biological sex should take precedence, but it is clear you don't really understand the complexities of biological sex....instead, like all the other anti-trans 'spokesmen', taking a reductive approach.

But you do provide insight into the dissonance in logic that allows homos to somehow create a safe space in their own minds for their attraction to cock by saying that our sexuality is 'biologically based'.

I suggest you might want to re-think your fundamental arguments.

This must be in the running for the Most Patronising Post of the Year award.

 

[Araucaria]

Where's FabGhetto when we need him?

 

[lefingum]

And millennials and Gen Z view this as a feature, not a bug.

They are redefining gender as a continuum, much like the generations before them redefined sexual preference orientation as a continuum.

Depends on the definition of gender they are using (that's why I gave 4 definitions), they can certainly define it as a continuum. Definition #2 (femininity and masculinity) does lie on a spectrum, and people can have infinite shades of gender expression from "very feminine" on one end, non-binary in the middle, and "very masculine" on another end. Definition #4 (inner gender identity) can also be a continuum on how internally feminine and masculine you feel.

However, being male or female is a binary. So is being man (adult human male) and woman (adult human female) [Definition #1]. There isn't a way to talk about a spectrum or jump from one end to the other in this. Men who self-ID as women and want to use their single-sex spaces without fully transitioning can't claim it to be a continuum or spectrum as those spaces are segregated by sex, not gender identity.

 

[KaraBulut]

However, being male or female is a binary.

Actually, no.

Genetically, there is XX and XY for the majority of people. However, there are X, XXX, XXY, XYY and other variants

Physiologically, there are a XX and XY people who are born with ambiguous genitalia. I have seen a few infants who fell into the intersex category and without genetic testing, we would not have been able to determine whether they were genetically "male" or "female".

Medical science hasn't done a particularly good job dealing with these non-binary scenarios. In the past, many were surgically reassigned, usually to female since the surgery was easier.

Some governments, including the US, recognize "X" as a gender for those who don't fit into male or female categories.

 

[rareboy]

This must be in the running for the Most Patronising Post of the Year award.

And deservedly so.

 

[lefingum]

Genetically, there is XX and XY for the majority of people. However, there are X, XXX, XXY, XYY and other variants

Physiologically, there are a XX and XY people who are born with ambiguous genitalia. I have seen a few infants who fell into the intersex category and without genetic testing, we would not have been able to determine whether they were genetically "male" or "female".

Medical science hasn't done a particularly good job dealing with these non-binary scenarios. In the past, many were surgically reassigned, usually to female since the surgery was easier.

Some governments, including the US, recognize "X" as a gender for those who don't fit into male or female categories.

Sex is actually defined by gamete and the evolved developmental pathway a body goes through towards the production of that gamete. There are only 2 gametes in mammals -- large stationary ones (egg) and small motile ones (sperms) -- and therefore only 2 sexes. Unless we find evidence for a 3rd gamete, there is no 3rd sex. Unless we have evidence for an intermediate gamete (a mixture of sperm and egg), there is no spectrum of sexes either.

All those different chromosomal configurations do lead to 2 sexes though. XXX is female, XXY is male, XYY is male, etc. Regardless of their chromosomal configurations, their bodies would develop along the line to either produce egg (female) or sperm (male), even if they cannot produce the gamete.

One exception is CAIS, where the person has XY chromosomes with internal testes, but a female phenotype (in fact they are the most feminine looking people you would find due to their insensitivity to androgen). CAIS people are genetically male, but they grow up believing themselves to be females, society treats them as females due to their female phenotype and therefore we can treat them as female for social purposes.

Intersex conditions do not nullify the sex binary. Intersex people have a medical condition that stops their bodies from developing properly alongside the 2 evolved pathways. Genetic defects are not unique biological sexes.

Would it be wrong to say humans have 5 fingers on a hand, because we know for a fact that some are born with 6 fingers (and some with 4)? Should we consider fingers to be on a spectrum due to some genetic mutations that exist?

Intersex (now called DSD) could be a 3rd kind of body (and there are over 30 DSDs or 30 kinds of bodies) but it's not a 3rd kind of sex as intersex people cannot produce an unique gamete or have an unique reproductive system. It's a defect that happens within the male-female binary.

Even in an intersex individual, we are looking for signs of the 2 sexes, so it's still a 2-way system or binary system.

The distribution of sex in humans/mammals could be a spectrum, but that does not make biological sex itself a spectrum. Sex is very much a binary if you define it on the basis of gametes and reproductive system.

 

[lefingum]

And you, like the OP, are perfectly within your rights to have opinions on transexualism in exactly the same way that stright people who disagree with homosexuality are entitled to have opinions on why homosexuality is a perverse lifestyle choice.

Yes, because having an opinion on or being concerned about certain trans issues is the same as straight people thinking of us as perverts. Trans aren't perverts and I never claimed that. I wrote 4 points of concern, do you have any specific issues about those points?

A cis person can't talk about trans issues because he's not been trans? A white person cannot talk about black issues? A man cannot talk about a woman's issue?

You may 'think' that biological sex should take precedence, but it is clear you don't really understand the complexities of biological sex....instead, like all the other anti-trans 'spokesmen', taking a reductive approach.

When a person has a genetic disease and goes to the doctor, the doctor would need to know the actual biological sex, not what the person 'feels' about his/her gender identity. If you have heart attack pain, your doctor will have to know your actual biological sex as symptom of heart attack differs between male and female. In dating, your partner may want to know about your actual biological sex, not what gender identity you hold in your mind. Are you going to deny actual physical sex holds more importance in a number of things than ones perceived gender identity or expression?

Complexities of biological sex? Over 99.98% of people are unambiguously male or female. In the remaining 0.018% people who have DSDs, the majority can be classified as male or female easily.

DSDs do not nullify the sex binary for plenty of reasons. Read my response to Karabulut's post as I don't want to repeat information.

But you do provide insight into the dissonance in logic that allows homos to somehow create a safe space in their own minds for their attraction to cock by saying that our sexuality is 'biologically based'.

I suggest you might want to re-think your fundamental arguments.

Not just ours, but sexual attraction and sexual orientation in itself is biological sex based. I am a gay man. I am attracted to other men, by definition of the word gay. A trans man would not be in my dating pool (even theoretically or potentially) unless he has fully transitioned and is indistinguishable from other men.
I have already mentioned the trouble with straight men's influx in lesbian dating apps. These straight men first identify as being women, and then they say they are attracted to women so that makes them lesbians (or transbians as they say). This can only happen if you believe in the concept of gender identity being more important to actual biological sex. If gender identity is real and more important than actual biological, then these men who identify as women must really be women even if they have penises. And if now they are attracted to women they are lesbians with penises. Lesbians are now called transphobes for not wanting people with penises in their dating app, and are forced to create new mediums for themselves. You don't see the problem with redefining sexual orientation in terms of gender identity rather than bodily sex?

If sexual attraction is not biology based, then what is it based on? How am I supposed to know what gender identity someone holds in their brain unless they have fully transitioned? We go by secondary sex characteristics, and if someone looks like a man, I will be attracted to him. A woman coming to me and saying "I identify as a man in my head" will not put her in my dating pool, even theoretically speaking.

You might want to rethink your arguments and stop trying to act so patronizing.

 

[lefingum]

And you, like the OP, are perfectly within your rights to have opinions on transexualism in exactly the same way that stright people who disagree with homosexuality are entitled to have opinions on why homosexuality is a perverse lifestyle choice.

But it doesn't make them right. Or the basis for public policy.

Since you want trans people to speak on trans issues, have you listened to lectures/videos by old generation transsexuals like Buck Angel or Catelyn Jenner? They both have commented very publicly on these woke trans trends in modern times, especially in regards to puberty blockers for children or male in female sports. Or even Blaire White who's very vocal about many of the harmful sides of this modern trans activism? Also search for "The Offensive Tranny" in youtube. They are all trans people who have similar concerns as mine. Are they valid or not?

 

[unloadonme]

I am a gay man. I am attracted to other men, by definition of the word gay. A trans man would not be in my dating pool (even theoretically or potentially) unless he has fully transitioned and is indistinguishable from other men.

As far as I'm aware, it's not possible to make a trans-man indistinguishable from a biological man.

 

[unloadonme]

[Quoted Post: Removed]

No, I'm sure many trans-men are casually indistinguishable from biological men. I was referring specifically to the lack of functioning male genitalia.

 

[rareboy]

Since you want trans people to speak on trans issues, have you listened to lectures/videos by old generation transsexuals like Buck Angel or Catelyn Jenner? They both have commented very publicly on these woke trans trends in modern times, especially in regards to puberty blockers for children or male in female sports. Or even Blaire White who's very vocal about many of the harmful sides of this modern trans activism? Also search for "The Offensive Tranny" in youtube. They are all trans people who have similar concerns as mine. Are they valid or not?

You really haven't helped your arguments at all in the lengthy screed above.

[Text: Removed]

Jenner is a far right wing nutcase who thinks only of herself and Buck Angel is not who I would solely turn to to illuminate the transexual experiences of everyone else.

You believe the world is binary and governed by only chromosomes, excluding all the other electrochemistry in our brains that governs who we are.

[Text: Removed]

So you are starting from such a position of sureness in your own opinion or that of some other (non-medical) people that it is useless to argue with you.

Repeating the premise that trans people are apparently taking over safe spaces for others still doesn't make it so, but it does display an hysterical and irrational panic that IT SOMEHOW IS ABOUT YOU. Talking about straight men catfishing lesbian women's dating apps is not about trans people. It is no different than homos catfishing straight guys.

I repeat, your homosexuality is not sancrosanct either.

My experience with transexuals is much more direct and supported by medical professionals than yours apparently is.

I get the distinct impression that you have not, in fact, ever met and talked with and listened to transexual people or medical professionals who specialize in this field.

But do go on....

 

[Essex Boy]

Where's FabGhetto when we need him?

Where's Sloppyseconds when we need him?

(I'll be back when I've got some thoughts together. Don't wait up.)

 

[KaraBulut]

Sex actually is defined by gamete and the evolved developmental pathway your body goes through towards the production of that gamete. There are only 2 gametes in mammals -- large stationary ones (egg) and small motile ones (sperms) -- and therefore only 2 sexes. Unless we find evidence for a 3rd gamete, there is no 3rd sex. Unless we have evidence for a intermediate gamete (a mixture of sperm and egg), there is no spectrum of sexes either

It's reductive but genetically, we can determine birth sex. But birth sex is not the same thing as gender. Under currently guidelines, gender is developmental and is self-determined.

And even when we can determine birth sex, that may not always be expressed consistently in physical gender characteristics, even in the absence of AIS.

A patient with 46,XY/47,XYY karyotype and female phenotype: a case report - BMC Endocrine Disorders

Background 47,XYY is a chromosomal abnormality syndrome that is typically observed in patients with a male phenotype. Few patients with XYY syndrome will have infertility. We here report a case of 46,XY/47,XYY syndrome diagnosed in a patient with a female phenotype. Case presentation A...

bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentral.com

Many of these genetic variations are never diagnosed unless the patient has another anomalies that lead to genetic testing. Fertility also varies in atypical genotypes, so diagnosis is sometimes made during infertility treatment.

Intersex (now called DSD) ...
Even in an intersex individual, we are looking for signs of the 2 sexes, so it's still a 2-way system or binary system.

Let's spell that out- Disorders of Sex Development which is a medical term that is rejected by the intersex community. Intersexed individuals do not want to medicalized and treated like they have a disorder. There has also been a move away from the old model of "optimal-gender policy".

Current recommendations for Intersex patients do involve genetic testing and a decision by the parents regarding socializing the child to the gender most consistent with their genotype. Mental health counseling is started early and parents are encouraged to be honest with their child. The only surgeries recommended are functional- to correct urinary tract abnormalities, for example. It is up to the child to make decisions about corrective surgeries to alter the appearance of their genitals.

The treatment recommendations are reflective of the point that many activists have been making for years: that gender is a social construct, particularly in Western culture. There are other cultures that recognize more than 2 genders (i.e. male/female) but in cultures where gender is treated as binary, the recommendation is to start with the gender that is most consistent with the genotype of the child, however, this refers only to socialization. Now that younger generations are more accepting of gender on a spectrum, the recommendation may evolve to allow an intersex child to have more say in where on that spectrum they wish to be.


Much of this is ultimately off-topic but underlying the discussion is the problem of equating birth sex with gender. Birth sex can be determined with genetic testing but gender is evolving to be considered less binary.

 

[unloadonme]

Under currently guidelines, gender is developmental and is self-determined.

For the sake of clarity, by whom are those guidelines set?

 

[rareboy]

Obviously not by JK Rowling and her UK TERF squad.

 

[KaraBulut]

For the sake of clarity, by whom are those guidelines set?

They are set by the professional organizations in collaboration with interest groups.

A Call to Update Standard of Care for Children With Differences in Sex Development

Some clinicians cite absence of long-term data to justify not fully deferring surgery for children with DSD, and legal restrictions of early procedures are also at play.

journalofethics.ama-assn.org

AMA to states: Stop interfering in health care of transgender children

AMA to governors: forgoing gender-affirming care can have tragic health consequences, both mental and physical.

www.ama-assn.org

Consensus statement on management of intersex disorders

Management of intersex disorders

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Handbook of Sexual Orientation and Gender Diversity in Counseling and Psychotherapy

This volume examines the diverse body of scholarship on sexual minority, transgender, and gender non-conforming psychology, and describes how practitioners can provide clients with flexible and affirmative mental health services.

www.apa.org

These guidelines were developed in collaboration with organizations like these:

The Intersex Guidelines Doctors Have Been Waiting For

On September 13, Lambda Legal and interACT Advocates for Intersex Youth published a detailed guide on how to make hospitals compassionate, affirming, and evidence-driven centers for intersex health care. It is very badly needed.

www.hrw.org

https://isna.org/node/138/ (organization is no longer in operation)

 

[lefingum]

It's reductive but genetically, we can determine birth sex. But birth sex is not the same thing as gender. Under currently guidelines, gender is developmental and is self-determined.

And even when we can determine birth sex, that may not always be expressed consistently in physical gender characteristics, even in the absence of AIS.

A patient with 46,XY/47,XYY karyotype and female phenotype: a case report - BMC Endocrine Disorders

Background 47,XYY is a chromosomal abnormality syndrome that is typically observed in patients with a male phenotype. Few patients with XYY syndrome will have infertility. We here report a case of 46,XY/47,XYY syndrome diagnosed in a patient with a female phenotype. Case presentation A...

bmcendocrdisord.biomedcentral.com

Many of these genetic variations are never diagnosed unless the patient has another anomalies that lead to genetic testing. Fertility also varies in atypical genotypes, so diagnosis is sometimes made during infertility treatment.

Let's spell that out- Disorders of Sex Development which is a medical term that is rejected by the intersex community. Intersexed individuals do not want to medicalized and treated like they have a disorder. There has also been a move away from the old model of "optimal-gender policy".

Current recommendations for Intersex patients do involve genetic testing and a decision by the parents regarding socializing the child to the gender most consistent with their genotype. Mental health counseling is started early and parents are encouraged to be honest with their child. The only surgeries recommended are functional- to correct urinary tract abnormalities, for example. It is up to the child to make decisions about corrective surgeries to alter the appearance of their genitals.

The treatment recommendations are reflective of the point that many activists have been making for years: that gender is a social construct, particularly in Western culture. There are other cultures that recognize more than 2 genders (i.e. male/female) but in cultures where gender is treated as binary, the recommendation is to start with the gender that is most consistent with the genotype of the child, however, this refers only to socialization. Now that younger generations are more accepting of gender on a spectrum, the recommendation may evolve to allow an intersex child to have more say in where on that spectrum they wish to be.

Much of this is ultimately off-topic but underlying the discussion is the problem of equating birth sex with gender. Birth sex can be determined with genetic testing but gender is evolving to be considered less binary.

This is why I gave 4 definitions of the word 'gender' in page 5 (my second post here) and asked which definition they are using as the word is quite ambiguous and people use it to mean different things. If they are talking about definition #2 (cultural stereotypes surrounding femininity or masculinity and how you express that through your personality) or definition #4 (inner gender identity) then yes it exists on the spectrum. Definition #1 however is much more rigid binary (not least because most trans-identified people don't have intersex conditions to begin with).

Facilities like bathrooms, prisons, changing rooms, etc are segregated by sex not inner gender identity or ones personality, and someone who is unambiguously male should not be using the facilities meant for females (and vice-versa) unless he has fully transitioned. And one should not bring "I identify as the opposite gender" or "gender lies on a spectrum" argument as those spaces are segregated by sex (definition #1), not ones perceived gender identity or personality.

 

[lefingum]

You really haven't helped your arguments at all in the lengthy screed above.

[Text: Removed]

Jenner is a far right wing nutcase who thinks only of herself and Buck Angel is not who I would solely turn to to illuminate the transexual experiences of everyone else.

You believe the world is binary and governed by only chromosomes, excluding all the other electrochemistry in our brains that governs who we are.

[Text: Removed]

So you are starting from such a position of sureness in your own opinion or that of some other (non-medical) people that it is useless to argue with you.

Repeating the premise that trans people are apparently taking over safe spaces for others still doesn't make it so, but it does display an hysterical and irrational panic that IT SOMEHOW IS ABOUT YOU. Talking about straight men catfishing lesbian women's dating apps is not about trans people. It is no different than homos catfishing straight guys.

I repeat, your homosexuality is not sancrosanct either.

My experience with transexuals is much more direct and supported by medical professionals than yours apparently is.

I get the distinct impression that you have not, in fact, ever met and talked with and listened to transexual people or medical professionals who specialize in this field.

But do go on....

A lot of personal attacks and condescending attitude directed towards me without even understanding my concern or points. You said trans people are better equipped to talk about their issues, that's why I named some transgendered people who have gone through transitioning, and have better knowledge and experiences of their situation, and who have similar concerns and issues as some of us are presenting. You somehow know that I never met or talked with transsexual people or medical professionals in this field, but you want me to take your claim that you have direct experience with them and that its supported by medical proffessionals at face value.

Many of these straight men don't think they are straight men. They believe they are women as they 'feel like women' inside, and since they are attracted to women, it makes them lesbians. Despite the fact that they have not transitioned and are in fact intact males. This is what the self-ID law is all about: it will allow a man to "become" a woman (or vice versa) by merely proclaiming that he feels like a woman and feels he has a woman's gender identity inside. You can't call out on these men if you go by the mantra of gender identity being more important than their physical sex. My issue is with certain elements of the movement (like the self-ID concept) and not with individual trans people per se, a point you keep on missing.

I will henceforth ignore you here as this discussion seems to be going nowhere.

 

[rareboy]

Naming a couple rando 'celebs' isn't useful. You don't provide the source for their comments or the context. As well, the two that you mention have a whole boatload of other issues as well.

The trans people I know personally are just living their lives without doing porn or behaving like toxic narcissists trying to grab attention. The medical people I know and have listened to include child/adolescent psychologists, endocrinology and surgery.

Transphobic people and people without sufficient medical or scientific knowledge shouldn't be the ones who get to set the rules or to determine for all others what their identity will be.

You seem to have some hang-up about 'intact' males pretending they are lesbians. [Text: Removed]...but I think that I would leave it to the lesbian in a relationship with that self-identifying trans person to work it out.

 

[opinterph]

Naming a couple rando 'celebs' isn't useful. You don't provide the source for their comments or the context.

Here’s What J.K. Rowling Has Actually Said About Trans People (New York Magazine; February 2023)