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The next pandemic: DETRANSITIONERS!

No it isn't, christ. You go off hrt and largely revert, barring some permanent changes. You know what is irreversible? Natal puberty. That shit takes surgery to correct.
Surgeries. Not just one surgery.

Part of the problem with the trans issues is the attempt to re-invent the English language. "Natal puberty" is one of those terms. It's "puberty". There's no need to qualify it with an adjective. In this case, the onset of puberty that would result from hormones produced by the unsuppresed gonads.

That was also the point of providing puberty blockers, as they have a low impact and allow the child time to mature and think.
This is the main reason for the attempts to delay the onset of puberty and the development of secondary sex characteristics.

The other reason was described by a now out of favor term: dysphoria. For someone who is struggling with gender identity, the development of breasts or body hair or any of the typical secondary sex characteristics of puberty. Those body changes contribute to the distress of having a brain that is struggling between the feelings of gender and the body's appearance.

And yes, a lot of those secondary characteristics will requirement multiple treatments and surgeries to reverse.
 
^^^When you've had more than one puberty you need to be able to discern between the two, hence natal. Particularly when a puberty relies on medication the particularities may/will be different.
 
^^^When you've had more than one puberty you need to be able to discern between the two, hence natal. Particularly when a puberty relies on medication the particularities may/will be different.
I get it. But there are a lot of people who are really struggling to understand something that is very complicated. It makes it harder when we speak in terms that are unique to the community and aren't always clear to people who aren't in that community.

At the risk of going off topic, I've just Googled average ages of puberty. It's 8 to 13 for girls and 9 to 14 for boys. Are children of that age really competent to make potentially life-changing decisions about gender identity? I'm sure I wasn't even aware that transsexualism existed when I was that age.
The other issue: kids today are much more aware of gender issues. They have grown up in a social media world where trans people are very visible. They have grown up with TV shows that have many gender non-binary characters. They often have kids in their schools who are gender non-binary or who are trans. A decade ago, when I was moderating another forum that had a lot of younger LGBT people, it was already apparent that being gay or lesbian was very passé and that gender was going to be the new frontier.
 
... A decade ago, when I was moderating another forum that had a lot of younger LGBT people, it was already apparent that being gay or lesbian was very passé and that gender was going to be the new frontier.

That almost sounds as if being trans is just the latest fashion. It's not, but that's why, in my view, we shouldn't indulge children just because they've picked up half an idea which they're unlikely to fully understand about gender being something they can decide for themselves.
 
That almost sounds as if being trans is just the latest fashion. It's not, but that's why, in my view, we shouldn't indulge children just because they've picked up half an idea which they're unlikely to fully understand about gender being something they can decide for themselves.
I love the language you use here.

Indulge, as though gender dysphoria is a luxury choice to be making.

Unlikely to fully understand. As though I didn’t just write up a reply about puberty blockers that might expand on how we can allow children time to understand.

Having taken the time to go further back in this thread this will be the last addition I make to it. There is little point discussing with the disingenuous and wilfully ignorant.
 
That almost sounds as if being trans is just the latest fashion. It's not, but that's why, in my view, we shouldn't indulge children just because they've picked up half an idea which they're unlikely to fully understand about gender being something they can decide for themselves.
I wouldn't say "fashion" but there is something going on that is blurring gender and sexual orientation. It is not anything new but the incidence across the Americas and Europe seems to be increasing, perhaps because there is less societal pressure to conform to gender norms.

There has always been a group of effeminate gay men and butch lesbians. What may have changed is now those effeminate gay men and butch lesbians have the option of assuming a non-binary gender or transitioning to another gender.

Unfortunately, not doing anything about children who are having gender identity isn't a solution. Some of the studies have associated gender dysphoria in children and adolescents with a 2 to 2.5 higher risk of self-harm and suicide. What pediatric endocrinologists were trying to do with puberty blocking medications was to delay onset of puberty until age 18, in hopes of getting the children through adolescence without self-harm, until they were old enough to make a decision.

Outside of medical transitioning issues, if a child is in an accepting environment, there's no harm done if they want to explore gender identity. Kids these days are more likely to be accepting of boys who want to wear makeup and more feminine clothing; they're also more likely to be accepting of girls who want to keep their hair short and take on a more masculine appearance. Part of being a teenager is about figuring these things out.
 
I love the language you use here.

Indulge, as though gender dysphoria is a luxury choice to be making.

Unlikely to fully understand. As though I didn’t just write up a reply about puberty blockers that might expand on how we can allow children time to understand.

Having taken the time to go further back in this thread this will be the last addition I make to it. There is little point discussing with the disingenuous and wilfully ignorant.
Pretty much nails it.
 
It is not anything new but the incidence across the Americas and Europe seems to be increasing, perhaps because there is less societal pressure to conform to gender norms.
On the contrary, there is now more pressure than before. 1990s kids considered all toys to be unisex, and saw Prince and Kurt Cobain in dresses. Today just liking certain toys and colours makes some parents suffer from Transhausen by proxy. Google Jackie Green.

What may have changed is now those effeminate gay men and butch lesbians have the option of assuming a non-binary gender or transitioning to another gender.
They don't. You cannot change sex. Have you seen the results of bottom surgery, in either sex? The best you can do is a parody-like approximation of outdated gender stereotypes.

Unfortunately, not doing anything about children who are having gender identity isn't a solution.
It actually is. Studies have shown that when children with gender dysphoria receive no puberty blockers, no HRT and no surgeries, 95-98% grow out of it during puberty. Puberty is awkward, but it's also what helps us develop our brain, understand complex issues and accept our own adult bodies.

Some of the studies have associated gender dysphoria in children and adolescents with a 2 to 2.5 higher risk of self-harm and suicide.
Those studies have been thoroughly debunked. All other things being equal, the rate is exactly the same. Kids with gender dysphoria and depression don't do it more than depressed kids without gender dysphoria. But among people who actually do transition, the rates skyrocket after a decade or so, between the ages of 30 and 50.

What pediatric endocrinologists were trying to do with puberty blocking medications was to delay onset of puberty until age 18, in hopes of getting the children through adolescence without self-harm, until they were old enough to make a decision.
But they never get mature enough to make a decision if they cannot grow up. Again, puberty is not a disease, but rather the cure.

Outside of medical transitioning issues, if a child is in an accepting environment, there's no harm done if they want to explore gender identity. Kids these days are more likely to be accepting of boys who want to wear makeup and more feminine clothing; they're also more likely to be accepting of girls who want to keep their hair short and take on a more masculine appearance.
Yes, just like us in the 1990s and 2000s and nobody questioned our "gender identity." We were just being kids.
 
They don't. You cannot change sex. Have you seen the results of bottom surgery, in either sex? The best you can do is a parody-like approximation of outdated gender stereotypes.
The topic is getting muddled.

You're equating genitalia with gender. The younger generation has redefined gender expression in a non-binary way. The question of surgeries, hormone therapy and "detransitioning" is a different topic.

If you're asking how a medical person views "gender", we now collect gender as "birth gender" which is more in line with the results of genetic testing, we collect a legal gender which would be in line with what would be on a government ID and we collect a gender identity which is how the patient chooses to express their gender.


It actually is. Studies have shown that when children with gender dysphoria receive no puberty blockers, no HRT and no surgeries, 95-98% grow out of it during puberty. Puberty is awkward, but it's also what helps us develop our brain, understand complex issues and accept our own adult bodies.
You might want to re-read the research.

The research is still evolving but one of the patterns that is becoming more apparent is that there's a difference between gender dysphoria in children vs adolescents/adults. Children who show signs of gender dysphoria (which is still the DSM-5 TR diagnosis) are more likely to "outgrow" the condition. On the other hand, when gender dysphoria is diagnosed in adolescents and adults, it is less like to change. There's a question on the table as to whether the DSM diagnosis of gender dysphoria should be used in children because it is more likely to be a transitional stage of development that may not continue into adolescence.

The diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" is about how the patient is coping with an incongruence between their gender identity and the gender that they were assigned at birth. A patient who wants to express a different gender is not considered a mental health issue. When a patient is having conflict or distress over an incongruent gender identity issue, then that is when the diagnosis of "gender dysphoria" comes into play.

What is problematic about many of the current treatment programs is that they are lacking mental health involvement in treatment. Until recently, "gender dysphoria" wasn't "fixed" with an endocrine or surgical solution until all mental health options were explored.

The original gender treatment programs from the 1990s focused primarily on adult mental health counseling. The outcome of the counseling might involve referral to endocrinology for hormone treatment or to a surgical specialty. The research studies that are being cited in this thread are programs that did not include adequate mental health evaluation and counseling, which is something that the UK and European programs have mentioned in their re-evaluation of their current gender dysphoria programs. The recommendations that are coming out of those studies is that "fast-track" treatment programs need to be reconfigured to be more in line with earlier programs that began with mental health evaluation and referral. Another recommendation is that there needs to be different treatment protocols for children vs adolescence/adults which is aligned with the research that shows that gender dysphoria in children is more likely to be a transitory condition.

TLDR: Recommendations coming out of research studies are changing the current treatment for gender programs. Treatment with hormone therapy or with surgical intervention is rarely appropriate for children. For adolescents and adults, mental health evaluation should be the primary treatment for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and any referral for hormone therapy (endocrinology) or surgery should only occur after mental health evaluation and treatment.
 
You're equating genitalia with gender.

Well what do you think the etymology of 'gender' and 'genitalia' is?
TLDR: Recommendations coming out of research studies are changing the current treatment for gender programs. Treatment with hormone therapy or with surgical intervention is rarely appropriate for children. For adolescents and adults, mental health evaluation should be the primary treatment for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and any referral for hormone therapy (endocrinology) or surgery should only occur after mental health evaluation and treatment.

Indeed! And that is exactly the opinion of dr Hilary Cass, Helen Joyce and professor Richard Dawkins, among others.
 
You're equating genitalia with gender. The younger generation has redefined gender expression in a non-binary way. The question of surgeries, hormone therapy and "detransitioning" is a different topic.

I could redefine a dog as a cat. It wouldn't make it so. I'm sure it's very convenient for the "younger generation" to try to draw a distinction between genitalia (biological sex in other words) on one hand and gender on the other. That's what's behind a question often put to left wing politicians such as Kier Starmer over here. Can a woman have a penis? Many will waffle rather then give a clear answer. If they say "no" they will offend the wokerati - sorry, the younger generation - but if they say "yes" the majority of voters will think they're crazy.
 
One issue no one is discussing is the potentially dangerous political implications of transphobia. In America the Republicans have jumped all over the trans issue, when their polling revealed that many people had problems with it. Mind you, these politicians don't like ANY of us who fall under any letter of the LGBTQ+ umbrella, and don't think we have a right to have fulfilling lives, or even exist. They're just seizing on the trans issue, because they view trans people as an easy, disposable group. But believe me, they're not going to stop there. They're not going to be happy until things are like, well, the way things were for us in the 1960s and before.
 
The far right in the US was very quick to realize that once the homos had marriage, the trans issue could be exploited politically to create fear, anger and division.

It has generated a raft of hateful, performative and utterly unnecessary legislation in many states that is being used only to gin up the base.

The tipping point is when the cynical, uneducated and frankly evil people use it to dehumanize and erase individuals. We have seen this in fascist countries repeatedly over the last century.

Homos should see this for the existential threat that it presents to us as well, as you point out.
 
One issue no one is discussing is the potentially dangerous political implications of transphobia. In America the Republicans have jumped all over the trans issue, when their polling revealed that many people had problems with it. Mind you, these politicians don't like ANY of us who fall under any letter of the LGBTQ+ umbrella, and don't think we have a right to have fulfilling lives, or even exist. They're just seizing on the trans issue, because they view trans people as an easy, disposable group. But believe me, they're not going to stop there. They're not going to be happy until things are like, well, the way things were for us in the 1960s and before.

One issue no one is discussing is the potentially dangerous political implications of transgenderism. In America rapey men have jumped all over the trans issue, when polling revealed that many people had a favourable view of it. Mind you, these transbians don't like ANY of us who fall under any letter of the LGBTQ+ umbrella, and don't think we have a right to have fulfilling lives, or even exist. They're just seizing on the trans issue, because they view gays and women as an easy, disposable group of useful idiots. But believe me, they're not going to stop there. They're not going to be happy until things are like, well, the way things were for us in the 1960s and before.
 
I could redefine a dog as a cat. It wouldn't make it so. I'm sure it's very convenient for the "younger generation" to try to draw a distinction between genitalia (biological sex in other words) on one hand and gender on the other. That's what's behind a question often put to left wing politicians such as Kier Starmer over here. Can a woman have a penis? Many will waffle rather then give a clear answer. If they say "no" they will offend the wokerati - sorry, the younger generation - but if they say "yes" the majority of voters will think they're crazy.

It depends on what you call younger. The wokerati tend to be closer to 40 than 20. I myself was peaked by people who are younger than me.
 
The Republicans spent at least 215 million dollars on anti-trans ads this election.
 
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