On-Topic The NRA in Disarray

[Kulindahr]

Indeed. I'm trying to remember the last time I heard about a car stuck in the mud or driving off a cliff or speeding killing 200 people per minute.

Now you're talking about a fantasy gun. Even the old military version the AR-15 is related to couldn't do that! Sure, there's a theoretical rate of fire you can cite, but in practice no one gets close to the theory -- and that theory depends on having an ammunition belt, which no version except factory test models ever had.

 

[Kulindahr]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH - same old lame fucking shit, YOU do NOT have a right to put the rest of us in danger. Period. The Fed ALREADY regulates firearms and it's PERFECTLY Constitutional.

WE HAVE A PROBLEM, and people who want to weasel and quibble and make silly excuses for dead children, are just as dangerous as live shooters.

At this point people who refuse to help, are guilty. A whole lot of us are tired of the stupid fucking excuses made by silly people living out fantasies in their heads.

Right there is the irrational basis of your position: it is based on the fear that guns somehow make people into irresponsible or malicious maniacs.

Me having a gun doesn't put you in danger, and it wouldn't even if you were on the same block of the same street -- unless you decided to attack me or someone with me, but that wouldn't be me putting you in danger, it would be you putting yourself in danger: attacking someone with a gun is no different than jumping in front of a freight truck moving at 50mph... with the exception that the gun is less deadly so you might get some mercy.

The problem in Parkland was that by law those students were fair game with less protection than is given to money in banks, and what protection they were supposed to have wimped out. The people who are guilty are the ones that made schools "gun free" zones, an exercise in make-believe that just invites killers. The fantasies that are dangerous are the ones that think that taking away the guard dogs improves the safety of the sheep! The silly excuse that somehow a school protective officer should go hide and that other police should wit outside while kids are bring shot is beyond silly, it's insane!

Call for volunteers, train them thoroughly; there are plenty of veterans and others in this country who would happily spend a couple of days a week guarding schools in exchange for drinks and lunch. I'm out of practice for such a task, but I know others who aren't and whose response to "Will you put your life on the line for our kids by guarding the school two days a week?" would be "Hell, yeah -- why did it take you so long to ask?"

If you want a solution to this issue you have to start by understanding the problem, and the problem is that the educational system as it's been run by liberals created a situation where even people who are known by the FBI to be dangers to others can just waltz into a school and start shooting. Here's a good place to start: Why Meadow Died. It wasn't any gun company, it was a system set up based on a fantasy world.

 

[TX-Beau]

Right there is the irrational basis of your position: it is based on the fear that guns somehow make people into irresponsible or malicious maniacs.

Me having a gun doesn't put you in danger, and it wouldn't even if you were on the same block of the same street -- unless you decided to attack me or someone with me, but that wouldn't be me putting you in danger, it would be you putting yourself in danger: attacking someone with a gun is no different than jumping in front of a freight truck moving at 50mph... with the exception that the gun is less deadly so you might get some mercy.

The problem in Parkland was that by law those students were fair game with less protection than is given to money in banks, and what protection they were supposed to have wimped out. The people who are guilty are the ones that made schools "gun free" zones, an exercise in make-believe that just invites killers. The fantasies that are dangerous are the ones that think that taking away the guard dogs improves the safety of the sheep! The silly excuse that somehow a school protective officer should go hide and that other police should wit outside while kids are bring shot is beyond silly, it's insane!

Call for volunteers, train them thoroughly; there are plenty of veterans and others in this country who would happily spend a couple of days a week guarding schools in exchange for drinks and lunch. I'm out of practice for such a task, but I know others who aren't and whose response to "Will you put your life on the line for our kids by guarding the school two days a week?" would be "Hell, yeah -- why did it take you so long to ask?"

If you want a solution to this issue you have to start by understanding the problem, and the problem is that the educational system as it's been run by liberals created a situation where even people who are known by the FBI to be dangers to others can just waltz into a school and start shooting. Here's a good place to start: Why Meadow Died. It wasn't any gun company, it was a system set up based on a fantasy world.

People who sing apologia and spin excuses for child killers are just as guilty.

That whole justification for child murder is a particularly fragrant pile of pig shit.

I don't know if you actually are careful with your guns, you are not credible on the subject - but I do know that pretending that everything but the gun is the problem makes you an accomplice - so YES you are a danger to me. You are why crazy people find guns whenever they want to kill someone. You let people who are crazy get guns, you pretend that killing them with more guns will stop them.

WHILE YOU BLITHELY IGNORE THAT SOMEONE HAS ALREADY DIED BEFORE YOU SUPPOSEDLY SHOT THEM.

You are pushing delusion, fantasy. You are advocating dead children. You are advocating some bizarre paranoia that somehow the answer to crazy people with guns is killing them all after they murder someone else.

It's fucking ludicrous, and it's fucking farce.

 

[Kulindahr]

Strange, isn't it, how people who cannot get guns don't use guns to kill people.

The truth is that there is no way to stop anyone from getting a gun. That was true thirty years ago and it's even more true now. Any kid in a city of over 100,000 who has any street smarts can get a gun if he wants, and any adult with a bit of money and some basic tools can make one.

The only people hurt by laws that try to keep people from getting guns is the poor, and they're the ones who need them! Every gun control law ever passed is discriminatory against the poor... and originally many were passed for that very reason.

 

[Kulindahr]

People who sing apologia and spin excuses for child killers are just as guilty.

That whole justification for child murder is a particularly fragrant pile of pig shit.

I don't know if you actually are careful with your guns, you are not credible on the subject - but I do know that pretending that everything but the gun is the problem makes you an accomplice - so YES you are a danger to me. You are why crazy people find guns whenever they want to kill someone. You let people who are crazy get guns, you pretend that killing them with more guns will stop them.

WHILE YOU BLITHELY IGNORE THAT SOMEONE HAS ALREADY DIED BEFORE YOU SUPPOSEDLY SHOT THEM.

You are pushing delusion, fantasy. You are advocating dead children. You are advocating some bizarre paranoia that somehow the answer to crazy people with guns is killing them all after they murder someone else.

It's fucking ludicrous, and it's fucking farce.

So stop spinning excuses for child killers by blaming people who weren't involved. And stop supporting the laws that enable child killers.

You live in a fantasy where signs stop killers. THAT is the policy that advocates for dead children! The NRA and similar groups want to actually do something about it, not just pass feel-good laws that haven't stopped anyone yet.

And stop the lying slander, BTW.

 

[TX-Beau]

The truth is that there is no way to stop anyone from getting a gun. That was true thirty years ago and it's even more true now. Any kid in a city of over 100,000 who has any street smarts can get a gun if he wants, and any adult with a bit of money and some basic tools can make one.

The truth is, there is a way to stop someone from getting a gun.

OH MY IF YOU OUTLAW GUNS ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS!

The only people hurt by laws that try to keep people from getting guns is the poor, and they're the ones who need them! Every gun control law ever passed is discriminatory against the poor... and originally many were passed for that very reason.

This, I can't even, it's just so fucking ridiculous in it's face. I'm ashamed for you.

 

[TX-Beau]

So stop spinning excuses for child killers by blaming people who weren't involved. And stop supporting the laws that enable child killers.

You live in a fantasy where signs stop killers. THAT is the policy that advocates for dead children! The NRA and similar groups want to actually do something about it, not just pass feel-good laws that haven't stopped anyone yet.

And stop the lying slander, BTW.

You and everyone who pushes the bullshit you push are involved, in every fucking, bloody attack. You are all why this happens.

 

[KaraBulut]

You're blaming the "gun industry" for what was a political campaign by people on the left who wanted to scare citizens into voting for them? Seriously? A campaign the media joined into enthusiastically because it sold?

People on the left using crime to incite voters to vote for them? We're talking about the US, right? The country where the left is accused of being "soft on crime" and of not "backing the blue"?

If anything might prompt voters to take more progressive positions, it might be the consideration that the gun industry, in conjunction with organizations like ALEC, has created a society where students in a classroom, patrons in a movie theater, people attending a country&western concert, festival-goers at a garlic festival, people shopping at a Wal-mart and congregants worshiping in a church/mosque/synagogue cannot feel safe for fear that one person with a high capacity, semi-automatic weapon will slaughter them in a matter of seconds.

Children in schools have "active shooter drills". There are companies whose full-time business is to help places of worship develop "shooter preparedness plans". What could have possibly caused this? Maybe the word "shooter" might be a hint?

 

[gsdx]

Now you're talking about a fantasy gun. Even the old military version the AR-15 is related to couldn't do that! Sure, there's a theoretical rate of fire you can cite, but in practice no one gets close to the theory -- and that theory depends on having an ammunition belt, which no version except factory test models ever had.

It was mentioned.

Assault rifles (even 'fantasy' ones) kill multiple people dead, and they wound countless others at the same time. You're comparing assault weapons with a car getting stuck in the mud.

I just Googled it. Assault rifles can fire up to 1,500 RPM, and I didn't even have to Google 'RPM' to know that it means 'Rounds Per Minute', and that isn't even a fantasy rifle. Don't equate them to some idiot behind the wheel driving off a cliff.

 

[Kulindahr]

The truth is, there is a way to stop someone from getting a gun.

Not unless you want to require a license to shop at Lowe's or Home Depot. I can drive to one of those stores right now and buy everything I need to make a gun at home.

 

[Kulindahr]

This, I can't even, it's just so fucking ridiculous in it's face. I'm ashamed for you.

Gun control in the U.S. began for two reasons: to keep blacks from getting guns and to keep the poor from getting guns. And every single gun control law passed has only furthered that goal.

 

[Kulindahr]

People on the left using crime to incite voters to vote for them? We're talking about the US, right? The country where the left is accused of being "soft on crime" and of not "backing the blue"?

If anything might prompt voters to take more progressive positions, it might be the consideration that the gun industry, in conjunction with organizations like ALEC, has created a society where students in a classroom, patrons in a movie theater, people attending a country&western concert, festival-goers at a garlic festival, people shopping at a Wal-mart and congregants worshiping in a church/mosque/synagogue cannot feel safe for fear that one person with a high capacity, semi-automatic weapon will slaughter them in a matter of seconds.

Children in schools have "active shooter drills". There are companies whose full-time business is to help places of worship develop "shooter preparedness plans". What could have possibly caused this? Maybe the word "shooter" might be a hint?

The society you describe was created by people who believe in magic, that passing laws that only burden the law-abiding will somehow stop those bent on evil.

Back before the left started making it harder to have self-protection along wherever one went, there weren't mass shooters for a simple reason, the same one that makes 98% of all mass shootings happen in de facto "open range" locations established by declaring them "gun free": killers knew that someone was likely to terminate their spree with extreme prejudice.

The left is responsible first for fear-mongering about non-existent "crime epidemics" and then for refusing to enforce the laws that would actually reduce violence from misusing guns, the laws that would actually penalize criminals for that misuse by prosecuting them and locking them up.

 

[Kulindahr]

It was mentioned.

Assault rifles (even 'fantasy' ones) kill multiple people dead, and they wound countless others at the same time. You're comparing assault weapons with a car getting stuck in the mud.

I just Googled it. Assault rifles can fire up to 1,500 RPM, and I didn't even have to Google 'RPM' to know that it means 'Rounds Per Minute', and that isn't even a fantasy rifle. Don't equate them to some idiot behind the wheel driving off a cliff.

You changed the topic -- a common fallacious move.

The only guns in civilian hands that could even remotely fire 200 rpm have a minimum price about equal to a year's income at the poverty level; most go for the total wages per year at the median minimum wage; many go for nearly the median annual wage income. So far there have only been less than a handful of mass shootings with such a weapon, including illegally converted ones, ever. And to even get near 200 rpm requires thousands of dollars worth of practice.

 

[TX-Beau]

Not unless you want to require a license to shop at Lowe's or Home Depot. I can drive to one of those stores right now and buy everything I need to make a gun at home.

GREAT! Outlaw all sales of firearms and you and all of the rest can pop round to Home Depot and build your own! Problem solved!

No you can't, you just are making yet more ridiculous assertions to justify your rank fucking irresponsibility, and the knee jerk justification for baby murder you are pushing because of the fantasy in YOUR head. It's gotten to the point where it's sickening - this revolting need to push apologia in support of gun delusionl

Case in point:

Gun control in the U.S. began for two reasons: to keep blacks from getting guns and to keep the poor from getting guns. And every single gun control law passed has only furthered that goal.

Please - just making shit up doesn't make it true.

 

[KaraBulut]

The society you describe was created by people who believe in magic, that passing laws that only burden the law-abiding will somehow stop those bent on evil.

Back before the left started making it harder to have self-protection along wherever one went, there weren't mass shooters for a simple reason, the same one that makes 98% of all mass shootings happen in de facto "open range" locations established by declaring them "gun free": killers knew that someone was likely to terminate their spree with extreme prejudice.

The left is responsible first for fear-mongering about non-existent "crime epidemics" and then for refusing to enforce the laws that would actually reduce violence from misusing guns, the laws that would actually penalize criminals for that misuse by prosecuting them and locking them up.

Can't argument with numbers:

US Murder Rate:

US Gun Sales:

US Mass Shootings (Assault Weapons ban expired in 2004:

Workplace shootings are down because so many people are still working from home.

 

[gsdx]

You changed the topic -- a common fallacious move.

There is no chance of discussion when one is responding to a statement and is accused of changing the topic.

 

[Kulindahr]

GREAT! Outlaw all sales of firearms and you and all of the rest can pop round to Home Depot and build your own! Problem solved!

No you can't, you just are making yet more ridiculous assertions to justify ...[immature irrational rant removed].

Case in point:


Please - just making shit up doesn't make it true.

The tools available at Lowe's are superior to what was available in metal shop when I was in high school, and guys made their own guns in shop class, to yes, the tools to make a gun are available at Lowe's. In fact if you know what you're doing, standard blacksmith's tools can be used -- in Afghanistan teenagers with just blacksmith's tools made fully-functioning copies of AK-47s -- and in fact my best buddy (who's moved to Indiana) has made rifles, a semi-auto handgun, and a revolver, out of stock metal using his ranch workshop.

You don't get to deny history because you don't like it. The first gun control in America was passed to keep blacks from having arms, and the first gun control laws by a major city were to keep blacks and the poor from being armed. These are historical facts -- like the fact that gun control in New York was instituted to keep a major political figure's political opponents disarmed while letting the criminal gangs that worked for him be armed (he essentially said so in public, in fact). But much earlier, in fact even before there was a United States, gun control laws were passed to keep blacks, Catholics, and other "undesirables" from being armed, and sometimes to allow arms only to landowners (what Hamilton thought should be the case). And in the South after the Civil War the former slave-owners devised the "states' rights" interpretation of the Second Amendment for the express purpose of defining the militia as being only white landowners in order to disarm blacks -- and prominent Southerners smugly predicted that blacks in America would become "extinct" thanks to these laws. The Supreme Court even admitted that if blacks could be citizens, they would have to be allowed arms -- so blacks had to be kept from being citizens... and then once blacks were citizens they had to be prevented from being part of the militia, which the new interpretation said were the only people allowed arms.
Massachusetts was a notable exception, noting in its constitution that "all men" have the right to arms, and honored that to the extent that landowners and merchants -- including a black landowner -- possessed not just rifles but cannon.

 

[Kulindahr]

Can't argument with numbers:

The numbers in terms of fatal misuse of guns match the trend of liberal prosecutors to bargain away charges for the criminal use of guns. What those charts really show is that the numbers of guns and the numbers of people owning guns has no correlation with the criminal use of guns. Of course even more they show that anti-gun politicians will use any event involving the loss of life to push for more laws that accomplish nothing, and that citizens will respond to those politicians' proposals by acquiring additional guns (and over the last two years, on the order of give to eight million people who never owned a gun before have acquired one or more).

 

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