The Official "Big Brother 12" Discussion Thread!

[Sgt Pepper]

So you think that let's say Sharon played better than Janelle?

I think Sharon had more game than Janelle yes, simply because Janelle had ZERO game (winning comps isn't "game"). But ultimately, neither one of them made it to the finals, and Sharon misread Ryan completely during F4 week so while I do think Sharon showed a lot of potential, she ultimately can't be counted as a great player. Janelle's style of playing though is entertaining and Janelle sure as hell was more fun to watch than Sharon. Janelle is a personal favorite of mine -- even one of my all-time favorites -- but I am under no delusion that she was some master game-player.

That being said, Janelle was at least likable and had she won her way to the end, she'd likely have won All Stars and could have even won BB6. Which according to the argument I made above, is all that matters.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

BTW, Britney must have some AMAZING juju with guys. Brendan was talking to himself on the feeds and said that he's starting to like Britney more, that the two of them are the big comp winners everyone else would target, that he hopes Ragan is the target next week and that he'd like to take Britney to the finals...wow. This is amazing. She made fun of him, yet when he won HOH she talked him out of putting her up, then she went back on her deal and tried to evict him, and now he's back to thinking he doesn't want her out if he wins HOH??

This is what I meant before. Britney has no long-term game, but she does have short-term damage control. She's been nicer to Brendan since he won POV (which I'm sure is totally fake) and even this morning she made sure to go up to him privately and recount events from last night to him. Little things like that make people think they have a stronger connection with you (she played Rachel the same way) and it's the part of Britney that can read people well.

Of course, Brendan would have to put someone up as a pawn next to Ragan -- and I doubt he'd put up any of those guys -- so he'd HAVE to nominate Britney anyway, and she'd be at the mercy of the Brigade. So she's still in dire straits in that she needs Ragan to win HOH, but if she can somehow survive the double eviction, she may have an unlikely ally in Brendan.

 

[Aratron]

I think Sharon had more game than Janelle yes, simply because Janelle had ZERO game (winning comps isn't "game"). But ultimately, neither one of them made it to the finals, and Sharon misread Ryan completely during F4 week so while I do think Sharon showed a lot of potential, she ultimately can't be counted as a great player. Janelle's style of playing though is entertaining and Janelle sure as hell was more fun to watch than Sharon. Janelle is a personal favorite of mine -- even one of my all-time favorites -- but I am under no delusion that she was some master game-player.

That being said, Janelle was at least likable and had she won her way to the end, she'd likely have won All Stars and could have even won BB6. Which according to the argument I made above, is all that matters.

How is evicting Will not game though?

 

[joesman]

I feel the same way. Brendon w/o Rachel isn't a bad character. He seems genuine and subdued. More natural acting.

If he'd just not say anything about her on camera ever again. Everytime he does, I stick my finger in my mouth. Even though no one else is in the room watching with me. Sometimes, I'll give the bird to the tv when he's drooling about her or calling her the love of his life. gag. vomit. For fuck's sake, dude, you just met her on a reality tv show and you could do so much better. She's way beneath you.
I just wanna slap the piss outta him, or shake him and say, Snap Out of It!

He's bringing down the curve for everyone. He's a very attractive man, what a waste.

The "show" they put on everynight for Showtime is stupid. Ragan always wants to discuss comps and production. Funny how they allow it on Showtime but cut the feeds or say "Stop that" on live feeds.

I agree that Brendan is a much more attractive man w/o Rach.

And while I hate the relationship between Rach and Bren, I hate the Matt/Ragan one more. Ragan drives me insane with his crying jags (hopefully they are over since he now knows that scummy bag Matt threw him to the wolves to try and save his sorry ass from the block), and his constant knowledge that he never seems to apply to his own game (knowledge is nada if not applied). That comp where they were playing for h/hn and Ragan's shrieks and crying reminded me too much of him in reality. I hate to be that hard on him but he is supposed to know better, and he is supposed to play better, read people better instead of falling for the lowest denominator in the house, save Rach.

 

[aijalon18]

My point is not that he should out the Brigade out of spite, but that he should do it as a last ditch effort to save himself. Something along the lines of, "Yeah I was with these guys, but now they've ditched me and so I have no loyalty to them anymore. So if you get rid of me, you're just keeping those three still intact, rather than keeping someone who could help you fight them."

I agree with most here that it probably wouldn't work -- partly because Matt is such a terrible salesman, and also because he has killed his own credibility by betraying Ragan (his #1 ally) which makes him look untrustworthy -- but he's got nothing left to lose, and he deserves the chance to try to save his own life in the game. To say that he shouldn't do so out of some sense of "integrity" or "principle" is silly. It's a game. There's no integrity other than obeying the rules of the game, and the rules allow you to say any damn thing you want to stay in the game.

This would be like playing chess with your best friend, and you have the opportunity to take their queen, and your friend says, "You're my best friend so you shouldn't take my queen. It says something about our relationship outside this game if you take my queen. You don't have any integrity, loyalty or principle if you take my queen." Do you see how obviously silly that is? Whoever you are in real life -- and whatever your value system is in real life (and certainly, you should have one) -- has no bearing on how well you play chess, or football, or Monopoly, or poker, or yes even Big Brother.

I did rant at first that maybe Matt wasnt outing them b/c integrity but I also said in that post toward the end that he has no integrity and is most likely not outing them b/c he still thinks he can get Lane's vote.

Ratting out the brigade will NOT help him. It makes no sense to do it. Yes it would be entertaining to see but acting as if it is "worth a shot" is nonsense. That's not a player who is trying everything to stay. That is a player who is stupid.

It's no secret that you are a Britney fan and obviously you want her to overcome the Brigade. That's understandable. Naturally you want her to find out about the brigade and have enough allies to win. If you are honest you have to know that outing the brigade doesnt offer Matt any chance of staying, you just want that to happen to save Matt( and make him a possible ally for Brit) and get Britney to snap out of Lane's spell.

 

[aijalon18]

BTW, Britney must have some AMAZING juju with guys. Brendan was talking to himself on the feeds and said that he's starting to like Britney more, that the two of them are the big comp winners everyone else would target, that he hopes Ragan is the target next week and that he'd like to take Britney to the finals...wow. This is amazing. She made fun of him, yet when he won HOH she talked him out of putting her up, then she went back on her deal and tried to evict him, and now he's back to thinking he doesn't want her out if he wins HOH??

This is what I meant before. Britney has no long-term game, but she does have short-term damage control. She's been nicer to Brendan since he won POV (which I'm sure is totally fake) and even this morning she made sure to go up to him privately and recount events from last night to him. Little things like that make people think they have a stronger connection with you (she played Rachel the same way) and it's the part of Britney that can read people well.

Britney does not have great juju. She's just good at being fake. Brendan and Rachel have proven time and time again that they are stupid and socially inept. No one else buys her bullshit. Her juju hasnt worked on any of the other guys. They cant wait to get rid of her ass and none of them want her at the end.

 

[Salemite]

Why is Hayden not getting a penalty nomination for continuing to break things and why is Enzo not getting a penalty vote for continuing to sneak food while he's on slop?

Last night, Hayden broke a vase in the backyard by standing on it and Enzo snuck food out of his penguin suit and ate it by the hammock. Hayden received a warning that he's on "probation," but Enzo never got in trouble for sneaking food even though production told him weeks ago that he would receive a punishment if they caught him breaking the slop diet again.

 

[Salemite]

Copied from Jokers...

Ragan and Matt go to the Cabana Room.

Matt suggests that he should go to the boys and tell them certain things so they will keep Ragan in the game next week. Ragan says "NO! That would paint a huge target on my back."

Ragan tells Matt straight out that the boys want him (Matt) gone.

RAGAN: "I don't think you understand that it's the those three (Hayden/Lane/Enzo) that want you gone and I think you're in denial about it."

Matt says he isn't in denial.

Matt says he would rather fight a losing battle than not fight at all. Ragan tells Matt that he doesn't want to be involved, he doesn't want to be a part of it and he doesn't want his name mentioned because he doesn't want an even bigger target on his back.

Ragan tells Matt he's definitely going home. "It's a lock." Matt says he wants to remind the boys that he's a strong competitor and he can take Brendon out next week. Ragan says they don't want Brendon out anymore -- they want HIM (Matt) out.

RAGAN: "You're definitely going home."

MATT: "I think I can stay. Crazier things have happened in this house."

Ragan casually mentions that he's going to target Brendon next week if he wins HOH...

After his conversation with Ragan, Matt moved to the backyard and started throwing him under the bus to Lane.

Matt is trying to convince Lane that he is still part of the Brigade and he's no longer close with Ragan. He says Ragan is different now. "Not the sappy emotional Ragan, but one with fire in his eyes."

Matt tells Lane that Ragan is now really crazy. He explains how Ragan does not trust Lane/Hayden/Enzo, and that his target is no longer Brendon. He says Ragan's new target is Lane/Hayden (not true)

Matt promises to keep Lane updated on everything else Ragan says.

 

[Salemite]

So basically... Matt knows L/H/E are scared of Ragan so he's throwing him under the bus and offering to be a spy for the brigade so they'll keep him in the game.

Lame strategy.

He needs to out the brigade NOW.

 

[aijalon18]

Outing the brigade is gonna solve all Matt's problems

 

[joesman]

Outing the brigade is gonna solve all Matt's problems

I just don't see how that will help him at all because he is also a brigade member and has lied repeatedly to other hgs about his alliances. I think if he outs the brigade he outs himself, loses Ragan even more, and loses any respect that the guys have for him. That, also, might lose him votes in the jury should he escape (I never put anything past the dr folks). Betrayal for betrayal's sake gets nothing.

Lane and Hayden are the under-the-radar guys. Lane just goes along agreeing, while Hayden either says nothing, grunts or turns his head and stares off into space.
Does Lane ever study the walls, the game sequences, elimination orders, or anything? Is he coasting to the jury house? The jury house was his ultimate goal in the beginning. The fame seemed more important than the game itself.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

It's no secret that you are a Britney fan and obviously you want her to overcome the Brigade. That's understandable. Naturally you want her to find out about the brigade and have enough allies to win. If you are honest you have to know that outing the brigade doesnt offer Matt any chance of staying, you just want that to happen to save Matt( and make him a possible ally for Brit) and get Britney to snap out of Lane's spell.

I've made no secret of the fact that I want Britney to survive next week but the same event can benefit two different people. If Matt outed the Brigade and managed to convince Britney/Ragan/Brendan to save him so they could all take out the Brigade, yes that would help Britney. But it would also help Matt. Those two things are not mutually exclusive, you know?

If you are correct that Matt has no shot whatsoever, then him outing the Brigade would NOT help Britney at all, because she's in a bad spot unless Matt stays and the four of them (Britney/Ragan/Matt/Brendan) work together in the short term for a common goal. In other words, yes I want Britney to benefit but she only benefits if Matt benefits too. See how that works? This is how you play BB; you get someone to do something that's good for you by also pointing out how it's good for them.

Otherwise if Matt is evicted, Britney is in the same fucked position she is now. So no, I don't just want Matt to out the Brigade just for the sake of outing them. Simply knowing the Brigade exists will not help Britney one bit because she can't play for HOH next week, Matt is leaving and she'll still only have Ragan to play HOH for her.

Also, if you read back, you'll see I acknowledged that Matt probably wouldn't succeed because he's a terrible salesman and because he already seems untrustworthy by selling out Ragan. However, that does not mean he shouldn't TRY. It's objectively wrong to say that someone -- who is 99% certainly going home -- shouldn't make an attempt for that 1%. Why not? If anything that person has nothing to lose anymore and might as well pull out the big guns. It's far more interesting (for me) as a viewer to see everyone doing what is best for them and trying to further their own game rather than rolling over, playing dead and accepting defeat. You'll probably still go down yes, but why not go down fighting?

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Oh and the Brigade is hardly a secret anymore. Ragan pretty much told Matt yesterday that the guys are in an alliance -- it's just too little too late. Unless Ragan and Britney can convince Brendan and Matt to form an alliance with them to take out the rest of the guys, they're going to have to win competitions to survive.

Ragan pretty much told Matt what I've been saying. When Matt asked if he could get the votes, Ragan told him in no uncertain terms that he is going home UNLESS he can pull something big out of his hat. Ragan even compared this mysterious "something" to the lie that Natalie and Kevin told last year and -- to hammer the point home that Matt should out the Brigade -- he said, "Sometimes it doesn't have to be a lie. Sometimes you can use the truth." When thick-headed Matt STILL didn't get it, Ragan then started talking about the Guys alliance, and he even said that he thinks Matt used to be in it.

In other words, Ragan is all but telling Matt, "You need to out the Guy Alliance that has now ejected you and make a last minute grab for it" but Matt -- proving even more than he's not a great player -- is stupidly relying on Hayden and Lane to come through for him. The Brigade is playing him well; both Hayden and Lane have told Matt that they're open to voting to keep him and that they haven't made up their minds, which is a total lie, but they're leading him on with this so he won't "out" the Brigade.

At this point though, outing the Brigade would only mean outing it to Britney and Brendan (since Ragan already knows) and it also wouldn't hurt the Brigade unless Ragan/Britney/Matt can convince Brendan that he is expendable to the guys and he should therefore work with the three of them to take out the guys. And that's a big IF since Brendan would basically be choosing to align with one group of three over another group of three...and the group courting him consists of the guy who evicted his girlfriend, and the girl who broke her word and nominated him for eviction this week.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Britney does not have great juju. She's just good at being fake. Brendan and Rachel have proven time and time again that they are stupid and socially inept. No one else buys her bullshit. Her juju hasnt worked on any of the other guys. They cant wait to get rid of her ass and none of them want her at the end.

You and I are clearly watching different feeds...or one of us isn't watching the feeds at all.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

So basically... Matt knows L/H/E are scared of Ragan

Matt is toast, but this is slightly good news for Britney though. If you include Brenda's little speech to himself this morning (where he copped to liking Britney and wanting to go further in the game with her) that means if Britney and Ragan are nominated on double eviction night (which is very likely), the guys could choose to evict Ragan first. This could all change by Wednesday night of course, but as of now, that seems to be the direction they're leaning towards.

And if that's true, then Britney must have been born under the good moon!

 

[Sgt Pepper]

How is evicting Will not game though?

If you call evicting a past winner, the most charismatic houseguest of all time, the guy who controlled almost every player in the House and would have won by a 7-0 vote, the guy who was in a two person alliance heading into the F3, if you call THAT "game" rather than "totally fucking obvious" then I don't know what else to tell you.

And even then, Janelle had to be dragged to that conclusion with great effort by Erika.

 

[aijalon18]

Dont gimme that "that's how BB works" crap. What you say is still not how reality works. Brendan will not work with Matt and Ragan. I dont think he'll even believe there is a brigade. Rachel along with Ragan proposed there was a possible Brigade before Kristen left. Brendan quickly shot that down b/c he thought Hayden was way too honest and trustworthy to have a secret alliance. So Brendan's not going for it. And even if he did he wouldnt work with those 2.

Matt's only shot is Lane. I dont think he can do it b/c he's Matt and he has zero persuasion game. But he could present a compelling case if he was so horrible. He has good possible reasons for Lane to keep him.

 

[Aratron]

If you call evicting a past winner, the most charismatic houseguest of all time, the guy who controlled almost every player in the House and would have won by a 7-0 vote, the guy who was in a two person alliance heading into the F3, if you call THAT "game" rather than "totally fucking obvious" then I don't know what else to tell you.

And even then, Janelle had to be dragged to that conclusion with great effort by Erika.

If it was so obvious why didn't any of the other 11 did it? That sounds like an excuse to me. I think taking Will and Boogie helped her rather than evicting them like the rest of the Sovs wanted.

Are you going to call her trying to convince Ivette to take her to the finals and comforting April to the point where she said she would vote for Janelle over Ivette zero game or obvious too?

Besides, she has a good social game and that is game to me as well

 

[Sgt Pepper]

We're just going to have to disagree about this aijalon.

I haven't been online much today, can someone else who actually has the feeds give an update? Salemite?

 

[Sgt Pepper]

If it was so obvious why didn't any of the other 11 did it? That sounds like an excuse to me. I think taking Will and Boogie helped her rather than evicting them like the rest of the Sovs wanted.

Are you going to call her trying to convince Ivette to take her to the finals and comforting April to the point where she said she would vote for Janelle over Ivette zero game or obvious too?

Besides, she has a good social game and that is game to me as well

Oh yeah Janelle had so much social game that had she lost POV or HOH at any point during her run on All Stars, she would have been promptly evicted. Kinda like how she laid a big fat goose egg in the final challenges and was, you know, promptly evicted.

I love Janelle but I'm not thirsty enough to drink her Kool-Aid.