the playing field isn't level yet- white households headed by a high school drop out 3x wealthier than black households headed by a college grad

[willhunt]

No no no thank you for participating and sharing your thoughts respectfully with zero hostility and an open mind. Do you mind teaching a class on that? Just one hour a week. Saturdays. 9am. I'll provide donuts.

It does require homework.

Respect 101

 

[opinterph]

Question: Can the “legitimate concerns” of white Americans include a commitment to white racial dominance? As an illustration, is it reasonable to empathize with the millions of whites who sacrificed their energy and resources to flee inner cities in the 1960s rather than accept integration?

reverberation

The fact that your racism is sincerely felt does not, of course, make you any less a racist; but Trump voters also may have reason to feel that something precious is being taken from them. Maybe it behooves today’s Democrats to take those grievances more seriously than they’re inclined to.

The Party of Hubert Humphrey (The Atlantic; James Traub; April 2018)

 

[KaraBulut]

The fact that your racism is sincerely felt does not, of course, make you any less a racist; but Trump voters also may have reason to feel that something precious is being taken from them. Maybe it behooves today’s Democrats to take those grievances more seriously than they’re inclined to.

The Party of Hubert Humphrey (The Atlantic; James Traub; April 2018)

There's another paragraph in that Atlantic editorial that asks a bigger question:

FDR had created the modern Democratic Party by deploying the state on behalf of ordinary citizens—ordinary white citizens. By 1948, those Americans no longer needed the state as they had; black Americans did. Thanks to Humphrey and the ADA, the Democrats had done something even more dangerous than they understood: They had exchanged a politics of self-interest for a politics of moral commitment. They were counting on their voters to accept that the nation must do for others what it had done for themselves. They were still, of course, the big-government party; they had much to offer their supporters. The question, which they had not fully considered, was: How much would they have to take away in order to make civil rights a reality?

This perpetual aggrievement of the majority seems to find threats against equal rights of all kind: for women, for gays, for religious minorities, et al... basically anything other than male, white, heterosexual, anglo-saxon Protestants. It's the ultimate narcissism: "...but what about us?" As if success and equality is a limited commodity and when one group gains, another must lose?

Isn't this the same argument used in all those Karl Rove State "Defense of Marriage" referendums from 2004? ...that gay people getting married would somehow ruin marriage for straight people (as if they needed any help ruining it?).

But back to the original (and long-abandoned) subject of this thread: the study is not about how the success of one group is a threat to another group. The study is talking about the lack of wealth accumulation in the Black community and how those inter-generational transfers of wealth that don't occur from parent to child in Black families can't be overcome by a college education.

The study focuses on changes that were expected after the Black Civil Rights movements of the 1960s and it's coming out of The US Federal Reserve (the people who study money and the US economy). The thing that underlies all of this that hasn't been talked about in this thread is spending and debt- that's one of the reasons that Democratic initiatives like the Consumer Financal Protection Bureau have focused on lending practices that affect minorities and the working poor- and yes, inter-generational wealth transfers: until you stop digging, it's really hard to get out of the hole.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

The study is talking about the lack of wealth accumulation in the Black community and how those inter-generational transfers of wealth that don't occur from parent to child in Black families can't be overcome by a college education.

A little louder so the people in the back can hear you, please?

The study focuses on changes that were expected after the Black Civil Rights movements of the 1960s and it's coming out of The US Federal Reserve (the people who study money and the US economy). The thing that underlies all of this that hasn't been talked about in this thread is spending and debt- that's one of the reasons that Democratic initiatives like the Consumer Financal Protection Bureau have focused on lending practices that affect minorities and the working poor: until you stop digging, it's really hard to get out of the hole.

*sigh of relief* I must say I find it endlessly agonizing whenever we [black Americans] present any circumstance that needs a-fixin [there's no shortage] and the response is a lazy "Well if you just worked harder" with my favorite predicate, "I was born in the gutter and worked my way out, you could too if you just worked as hard as I did."

I do need to temper myself in such discussions as it's easy to fall into a trap of proving someone wrong vs sharing information. In my defense, the whole dynamics of color in America is a dose of medicine that needs, like, four 5lbs bags of sugar to go down for some people.

 

[KaraBulut]

...I do need to temper myself in such discussions as it's easy to fall into a trap of proving someone wrong vs sharing information. In my defense, the whole dynamics of color in America is a dose of medicine that needs, like, four 5lbs bags of sugar to go down for some people.

These threads tend to fall back into inductive reasoning: too many people feel they have the answer and they steer the question to their answer.

What is missing so often is a view from other people's eyes. A lot of white people don't know why all those payday lenders set up shop in minority neighborhoods (and why they donate so heavily to white lawmakers to keep the laws loose on their lending practices). A lot of Black people don't talk about what a problem "prosperity-gospel" ministries are in the Black community and how the con men who put a "Rev" in front of their name take advantage of the spending habits of minorities to fund their "churches".

And meanwhile, the hole just gets deeper and deeper.

 

[peeonme]

These threads tend to fall back into inductive reasoning: too many people feel they have the answer and they steer the question to their answer.

What is missing so often is a view from other people's eyes. A lot of white people don't know why all those payday lenders set up shop in minority neighborhoods (and why they donate so heavily to white lawmakers to keep the laws loose on their lending practices). A lot of Black people don't talk about what a problem "prosperity-gospel" ministries are in the Black community and how the con men who put a "Rev" in front of their name take advantage of the spending habits of minorities to fund their "churches".

And meanwhile, the hole just gets deeper and deeper.

You find them in low income neighborhoods, regardless of race. I agree about the prosperity preaching as well, this also happens in white churches where the people are not well educated. An offering should not be a shake down. Who isn't aware of the televangelists with jet airplanes?
One of the most shameful exploitations is our own governments taking over the numbers racket from the mob and calling it the lottery.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

You find them in low income neighborhoods, regardless of race.

I'm sure if you searched around America circa 1938 you'd find a white person hanging from a tree that doesn't mean they were lynched in equal numbers. Your comment is a lazy dismissal of a trend you clearly are unaware of [predatory lenders targeting minoritiess] and, as per usual, immediately write off as happenstance. because either America is one hundred percent fair to minorities, or else it isn't but we are unwilling to dissect any of the infinite ways this is manifested.

I agree about the prosperity preaching as well, this also happens in white churches

Is there an echo in here?

 

[Dystopian]

I didn't know that, but expect that time and additional generations will partially reduce the difference, but maybe not significantly enough. I'm not sure what the answer would be to change this.

The Emancipation Proclamation (Freed slaves in the Confederacy only) and the 13th (Abolished slavery in the US), 14th (Provided citizenship and equal protection to former slaves) and 15th (guaranteed the right to vote to former male slaves) Amendments to the US Constitution were all in place by 1870. That's almost 150 years ago. In 1896, SCOTUS ruled that "separate but equal" facilities were not Unconstitutional. Brown vs. Board of Education (1954) prohibited segregation in public schools. Ten years later, the University of Alabama admitted Black students. The Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1968 were to guarantee equal opportunity in employment and housing, among other things. Donald Trump discriminated against Blacks, refusing to rent to them and it finally became a case in 1973. So, suffice it to say equal opportunity for African Americans got off to a slow start. In many ways, it never really took off. Housing, education, employment, wages, to name a few areas. That there is a movement, "Black Lives Matter" in response to police slaughtering unarmed Blacks without consequence suggests the 14th Amendment isn't really enforced. Blacks are 13% of the population and account for 35% of prison inmates. Now in the Era of Trump, racism and discrimination are not only tolerated, but celebrated by Trump supporters as a benefit of MAGA. What had been fringe elements of society are emboldened. The Clan marches in Charlottesville and our POTUS equivocates and our legislators are divided in their reactions. The playing field is not level yet, and with the current regime dismantling public education, affordable care, Medicaid and likely Medicare and Social Security, the playing field will only grow more skewed in favor of (rich) Whites. Actually, rich anyone. There is no interest or mechanism to address social issues that have institutionalized the Black underclass in America. Affirmative Action was a band aid approach to a progressive, terminal disease in our Society. But, it was all we had.

 

[frankfrank]

It is intended to represent opposite things.

Thanks for correcting me on that. I'm surprised I wasn't aware of the prevailing and massive transfer of offspring money to parents in African-American lives. In that case it's good to know about it, because it doesn't seem to be talked about much...I would think I would have been aware of it long ago.

This involves a large number of lengthy/multiple and deep conversations I've had with at least 12 or 14 black friends in (say) the past 20 years, and interestingly that has been mentioned perhaps once - seldom enough for me to assume it was circumstances specific to that person. I don't think I've seen it in articles until this thread, either.

Even with that dynamic in the mix, that still doesn't explain the entire disparity.

 

[KaraBulut]

...Your comment is a lazy dismissal of a trend you clearly are unaware of [predatory lenders targeting minoritiess] and, as per usual, immediately write off as happenstance. because either America is one hundred percent fair to minorities, or else it isn't but we are unwilling to dissect any of the infinite ways this is manifested.

His statement was correct- for example, payday lenders can be found in great numbers around military bases.

The Black community is targeted, though:
In some states, a debate over payday lending unfolds in the black church [WaPo]

The Rev. Frederick Newbill is not the typical face of the payday lending industry.

Recruited by Florida’s largest small-dollar lender, Amscot, the senior pastor at First Timothy Baptist Church in Jacksonville was among several faith leaders to visit the state’s capital this year to lobby for a bill loosening payday regulations.

 

[peeonme]

I'm sure if you searched around America circa 1938 you'd find a white person hanging from a tree that doesn't mean they were lynched in equal numbers. Your comment is a lazy dismissal of a trend you clearly are unaware of [predatory lenders targeting minoritiess] and, as per usual, immediately write off as happenstance. because either America is one hundred percent fair to minorities, or else it isn't but we are unwilling to dissect any of the infinite ways this is manifested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payday_loan
User demographics and reasons for borrowing

According to a study by The Pew Charitable Trusts, "Most payday loan borrowers [in the United States] are white, female, and are 25 to 44 years old. However, after controlling for other characteristics, there are five groups that have higher odds of having used a payday loan: those without a four-year college degree; home renters; African Americans; those earning below $40,000 annually; and those who are separated or divorced." Most borrowers use payday loans to cover ordinary living expenses over the course of months, not unexpected emergencies over the course of weeks. The average borrower is indebted about five months of the year.[14]

This reinforces the findings of the U.S. Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) study from 2011 which found black and Hispanic families, recent immigrants, and single parents were more likely to use payday loans. In addition, their reasons for using these products were not as suggested by the payday industry for one time expenses, but to meet normal recurring obligations.[15]

People are 'targeted' not because of skin color, but because of their vulnerability.

 

[Latimer]

Perhaps this topic should have its own Forum listing: White Privilege and Oppressed Minorities.

 

[bankside]

People are 'targeted' not because of skin color, but because of their vulnerability.

This is a really good point. Kenan Malik is a British guy, one of the best scholars on untangling “identity” from the actual problems people face. He wrote another awesome article on how you can fail vulnerable people of every ethnicity when you can’t see past ethnicity to the real problem.

The discussion reveals how differently we imagine white and non-white populations. Whites are seen as divided by class, non-whites as belonging to classless communities. It’s a perspective that ignores social divisions within minority groups while also racialising class distinctions.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

Perhaps this topic should have its own Forum listing: White Privilege and Oppressed Minorities.

Yeah segregation worked really well the first time around.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

People are 'targeted' not because of skin color, but because of their vulnerability.

Of course, nobody has ever done anything of even the slightest ill intent to a person of color because of their color. Thanks for the correction.

 

[peeonme]

https://www.theglobalist.com/african-americans-african-immigrants-differ/
How they react to adversity

Perhaps the greatest difference I have seen between African immigrants and African-Americans is how they react to adversity.

Most African immigrants to the United States came here for economic advancement. They do not have any political agenda. They are willing to take any job and do not blame the “system” when they fail in their endeavors.

Most African immigrants to the United States often live in mixed neighborhoods instead of black neighborhoods and they easily integrate. African immigrants know who they are. They are not easily offended when someone tries to put them down. They know where they come from and why they are here.

This link shows that attitude and not color plays a large role in success.

 

[willhunt]

This link shows that attitude and not color plays a large role in success.

With all due respect, globalization would include us in a huge swath and pretends to normalize the un-normal. Immigrants come willingly from wherever with a leg up. The unwilling were kidnapped and shackled. Also Stephan Richter was born with a silver spoon. That would probably skew his outleoook. His credentials are in reality-virtual.

 

[KaraBulut]

People are 'targeted' not because of skin color, but because of their vulnerability.

This is why it's important to actually read the original study. It's here.

Page 11:

African American respondents are more than twice as likely as others to have used a payday loan but make up less than a quarter of all payday borrowers, as compared with whites who comprise 55 percent of all borrowers.

Whites compose about 61% of the US population but only 4% of that 61% have used a payday lender (200 million white people * 4% = 8 million white people using payday lenders).

Blacks are 12% of the US population and 12% of that group have used a payday loan (38 million black people * 12% = 4.5 million black people using payday lenders.

So, it's true that 8 million white people > 4.5 million black people.... but black people are three times more likely to use a payday lender (4% of white people vs 12% of black people).

 

[bankside]

So, it's true that 8 million white people > 4.5 million black people.... but black people are three times more likely to use a payday lender (4% of white people vs 12% of black people).

What do you take from that fact? What kind of policy or legal change should it lead to and on what grounds should we advocate for it? Would anything be different as far as the solutions we might adopt if 12.5 million people in those shoes were all white? All black?

 

[opinterph]

[Kenan Malik wrote an] awesome article on how you can fail vulnerable people of every ethnicity when you can’t see past ethnicity to the real problem.

(From linked article)

If we are serious about tackling the problems facing both working-class whites and minority groups, it is time we started thinking of the relationship between race and class in a different way.

Perhaps one way to begin to correct our thinking about “working-class whites and minority groups” is to recognize what it means to be working-class.