The Pope on gay marriage

[Spensed]

Of course it is....you want to be able to decide who the pope meets, or does not meet...that's been the focus of your campaign here.

You don't appear to have read or understood my comments.

It's a nonsense to think that I might be claiming that I should control who the Pope should meet with. The problem is the context and the other issues that I, and others, have raised, which you seem to want to silence. I suggest you read the following summary:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miche...-meeting_b_8232866.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

Today's developments show that the whole issue of the meeting have become a dog's dinner, which is contrary to, and degrades, the Pope's message of inclusion and tolerance. The ill-advisability of the meeting in the context of a papal state visit is now even more self-evident than it was to begin with.

 

[KaraBulut]

It appears that Kim Davis and her attention seeking, and publicity seeking team of promoters have overstepped their propaganda.

One hopes that this will be the end of hearing from this puppet of the right wing conservative morons who have put her up to posing as a hero and alleged martyr for her faith.

The curious thing for those of us in the US is that over the past 15 years, there has been a series of these homespun heroes of the Right who later fell from grace- usually promoted as patriots who were later found to be frauds or tragically flawed. After their fall, they are never mentioned again and are dropped like a hot potato after the truth comes out.

Mrs Davis was quickly found to have engaged in serial matrimony (4 or 5 marriages, depending on the source), affairs that produced illegitimate children and all sorts of questionable life choices. This time the social conservatives were in too deep and continued to laud her as a hero and conscientious objector who was an example of how Christians are being persecuted in the US.

Liberty Counsel's promotion of the papal audience is an embarrassment to a appearance-savvy Pope. Pity.

 

[kallipolis]

The curious thing for those of us in the US is that over the past 15 years, there has been a series of these homespun heroes of the Right who later fell from grace- usually promoted as patriots who were later found to be frauds or tragically flawed. After their fall, they are never mentioned again and are dropped like a hot potato after the truth comes out.

Mrs Davis was quickly found to have engaged in serial matrimony (4 or 5 marriages, depending on the source), affairs that produced illegitimate children and all sorts of questionable life choices. This time the social conservatives were in too deep and continued to laud her as a hero and conscientious objector who was an example of how Christians are being persecuted in the US.

Liberty Counsel's promotion of the papal audience is an embarrassment to a appearance-savvy Pope. Pity.

I have no argument here....and perhaps, on this thread we can all agree on this one fact of life....nevertheless,the pope depends on his representatives in the United States to organize his programme....here lies his dilemma...

 

[kallipolis]

You don't appear to have read or understood my comments.

It's a nonsense to think that I might be claiming that I should control who the Pope should meet with. The problem is the context and the other issues that I, and others, have raised, which you seem to want to silence. I suggest you read the following summary:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miche...-meeting_b_8232866.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

Today's developments show that the whole issue of the meeting have become a dog's dinner, which is contrary to, and degrades, the Pope's message of inclusion and tolerance. The ill-advisability of the meeting in the context of a papal state visit is now even more self-evident than it was to begin with.

That's been transparent since this matter first broke....and I have readily acknowledged this embarrassing fact of life.

 

[TX-Beau]

All this assumes that you know what transpired as conversation between Francis, and Kim Davis.

Francis may well believe that a private conversation, should not be divulged to the world's press.

Or, are you relying on the public relations exercise provided by Kim Davis' handlers?

You have no idea what happened either - and I REPEAT all he has to do to banish the confusion is CLARIFY HIS POSITION!

If he's so inclusive, why isn't he dashing for a microphone since by now he has to know he met with a disgusting bigot?

 

[TX-Beau]

The issue being discussed here is the right of Francis, to meet with whom he likes...

Your right to be an anti religion bigot, by posting your predictable rants here is not being disputed...

NO the issue here is why the Pontiff would have a private meating with a bigot then let his staff act all shady about it.

You'd see no less disapproval if he met with Neo-Nazis which he is PERFECTLY allowed to do.

 

[TX-Beau]

The issue was never whether the Pope can meet with whoever he wants. It is whether he should have met with such a polarizing figure in the context of this state visit and, thereby, appear to endorse her lawlessness and antipathy against gays. Imagine if he had used the papal visit to meet in secret with the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

Even if you are blind to the problem, it now seems clear that the Vatican regrets the negative impact of the meeting, which is, at least, a step in the right direction.

Fucker - beat me to it.

 

[kallipolis]

You have no idea what happened either - and I REPEAT all he has to do to banish the confusion is CLARIFY HIS POSITION!

If he's so inclusive, why isn't he dashing for a microphone since by now he has to know he met with a disgusting bigot?

He did:


http://press.vatican.va/content/sala...749/01616.html

I quote. :

The brief meeting between Mrs. Kim Davis and Pope Francis at the Apostolic Nunciature in Washington, DC has continued to provoke comments and discussion. In order to contribute to an objective understanding of what transpired I am able to clarify the following points:

Pope Francis met with several dozen persons who had been invited by the Nunciature to greet him as he prepared to leave Washington for New York City. Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope’s characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family.

The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation of Mrs. Davis and his meeting with her should not be considered a form of support of her position in all of its particular and complex aspects.

The highlighting is mine.

and:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michel...b_8232866.html

The pope, according to the Vatican's clarification, knew little of the particulars of her story. It appears it was not a private meeting to endorse her. Vatican spokesman Fr. Federico Lombardi even described it as not "a real audience" -- quite an insult to Davis -- unlike some of the pope's other meetings. And Fr. Tom Rosica, who assists the Vatican press office, said Francis personally approved the clarification, so the rebuke is coming straight from the top. Whatever the case, it is very rare that the Vatican offers a clarification of any kind. So this is a slap at Davis and her lawyers for using the meeting in a political manner.

 

[TX-Beau]

He did:


http://press.vatican.va/content/sala...749/01616.html

I quote. :



The highlighting is mine.

and:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michel...b_8232866.html

Thank you. Now I can feel better about this. I won't say day late and dollar short but your article also says that these statements were in response to the outrage, so no, it doesn't take all the disappointment away.

...Had there not been a collective sense of betrayal expressed in a forceful way by people around the world, the Vatican would have done nothing.

In that case, Liberty Counsel, the anti-gay legal firm associated with the late Jerry Falwell's Liberty University and which represents Kim Davis, would have gotten away with using the pope and the Catholic Church for its hateful, hideous, law-breaking agenda. So, actually, we did the pope a favor in forcing the Vatican to speak out...

From your source

 

[Telstra]

Huffington Posts' alleged "transcript" of the meeting:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ng-with-pope-francis_560c2fcce4b0dd85030a555d

umm the script is too funny to be true.
Therefore it is fake.

 

[TX-Beau]

Yeah it kinda says that right under the author's name.

 

[kallipolis]

umm the script is too funny to be true.
Therefore it is fake.

Of course it is...for your usual provocative statements, say so....thanks for your generous input.

 

[TX-Beau]

He did:


http://press.vatican.va/content/sala...749/01616.html

I quote. :



The highlighting is mine.

and:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michel...b_8232866.html

Also from the HuffPo article:

...But more importantly: This is a powerful church that still condemns homosexuality as "intrinsically disordered," attacks transgender people and allows its institutions worldwide to discriminate against LGBT people, with Catholic schools in the U.S. firing gay or lesbian teachers, for example, after finding out they're exercising their right to marry . The pope has both refused meetings with LGBT Catholics on these issues and refused to stop that discrimination.

The church surely cannot be seen as a "friend" of LGBT people even if we see a very slight -- in a centuries-long context -- overture by this new pope. It will need to be treated as a hostile institution for a long time. In the meantime, it's important to expose hypocrisies and encourage the pope -- who doesn't want this issue bogging him down and keeping him from focusing on the issues he's passionate about -- to do much, much more. The pressure got him to take control of this situation. That was big. It means that we need to keep the pressure up.

 

[kallipolis]

No one doubts the need for a change in the official church narrative.....this thread is discussing another topic....

 

[TX-Beau]

No one doubts the need for a change in the official church narrative.....this thread is discussing another topic....

The title of the thread appears to be "The Pope on Gay Marriage" in which case the position of the Catholic Church on gay people is certainly relevant - what Pope F. actually thinks about the subject doesn't seem to be in opposition, whether he likes Kim Davis or not.

 

[kallipolis]

A pope can gradually mould church culture to better relate to the fundamental message of the Christ....that of loving one another....

 

[Jacquemar]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/world/europe/pope-francis-kim-davis-meeting.html?_r=0

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/va...-student-partner/ar-AAf1wU3?ocid=ansmsnnews11

 

[Spensed]

A pope can gradually mould church culture to better relate to the fundamental message of the Christ....that of loving one another....

And, as now effectively acknowledged by the Vatican, one does not do that by secret meetings with virulently anti-gay activists during a papal state visit promoting compassion and inclusiveness.

I'm glad we and the Vatican managed to clear that up for you. LOL.

 

[Spensed]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/world/europe/pope-francis-kim-davis-meeting.html?_r=0

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/va...-student-partner/ar-AAf1wU3?ocid=ansmsnnews11

Good for him. Meeting with a gay couple is more in tune with his previous statements, which were a positive change from his anti-gay rhetoric and actions in Argentina.

However, he still needs to engage with gay Catholic groups, which he has still not done, and which he could do without compromising the hierarchy's continuing inconsistent position (gays good, gay sex bad).

Shame that Rome can't be changed in a day.

 

[KaraBulut]

umm the script is too funny to be true.
Therefore it is fake.

Ya think?

I have no argument here....and perhaps, on this thread we can all agree on this one fact of life....nevertheless,the pope depends on his representatives in the United States to organize his programme....here lies his dilemma...

No disagreement at all. The boys in the Vatican Press Office have been uncharacteristically cranking out the bolletinos today. As predicted.

Perhaps it is possible to backpedal in those skirts.

Good for him. Meeting with a gay couple is more in tune with his previous statements, which were a positive change from his anti-gay rhetoric and actions in Argentina.

Here's a video of that meeting (the man with the gray hair is the former student and the man with the dark hair is his husband):

However, he still needs to engage with gay Catholic groups, which he has still not done, and which he could do without compromising the hierarchy's continuing inconsistent position (gays good, gay sex bad).

He has met with representatives of SOMOSGAY in South America in the past. He has also met in-person with Diego Neria Lejárraga, a Spanish trans activist.

Representatives from Dignity were at the White House, although not for a private meeting. It would be a big step if he were to reverse the ousting of Dignity that occurred in 1986 but that's probably a long way off.

Shame that Rome can't be changed in a day.

Or the Vatican, for that matter.