So you are not claiming a "spiritual" experience, you are claiming a secular, actual fact. A factual god presumably does not require a church, faith, or the faithful to exist.
Why should we accept that claim of secular fact without proof?
The same fallacy I started the thread about: you claim that God be measurable by science, which is BTW arguably contrary to the definition of God.
You claim that Mikey's position is a "claim of secular fact". Why should we accept that claim concerning secular fact... when it is contrary to the definition offered?
At least how I was raised, faith requires no evidence at all, and seeking evidence is not faith, evidence destroys that very value of faith. Faith is the mechanism by which we demonstrate to god our sincerity.
Is that not so?
IF that is what you were taught, and they claimed to be Christian, then those who raised you were fools. That's not the Bible's definition of faith; it's contrary to numerous passages -- such as the one I cited earlier to disprove your assertion that no one has ever seen.
Nor is faith a mechanism by which we demonstrate anything at all; that's also contrary to the Bible, because it basically means God can be bought -- which even in the Old Testament the Prophets tried to explain is not the case. No, Mikey is right; faith is a gift of God, not something we do, but something He provides/generates, "that no man may boast".
So why are all of you who are religious not simply telling the rest of us that you believe because you have faith, and that faith in and of itself is the valuable thing?
I will not agree with you, I will think you are - well - silly, but that can't possibly touch your faith if you have it, and you don't need to justify your faith in terms of the world because it's between you and god. At least that's the way I was taught, maybe Catholics are different.
As I said, those who taught you were fools, if they claimed to be Christians -- though there are a lot of such fools out there.
To say "I believe because I have faith" is a tautology: the word is essentially the same one in the Greek, one being the verb form and the other being the noun. It's very much like answering the question "Why are you naked?" by saying "Because I have no clothes on". While it may be true, it is an answer with no meaning, because it merely states the subject of the question.
Mikey posted the Apostles' Creed in his thread. It makes the point, but the Nicene does it more thoroughly:
Πιστεύω είς ενα Θεόν, Πατέρα, παντοκράτορα, ποιητήν ουρανού καί γής, ορατών τε πάντων καί αοράτων.
Καί είς ενα Κύριον, Ίησούν Χριστόν, τόν Υιόν του Θεού τόν μονογενή, τόν εκ του Πατρός γεννηθέντα πρό πάντων τών αιώνων. Φώς εκ φωτός, Θεόν αληθινόν εκ Θεού αληθινού γεννηθέντα, ού ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τώ Πατρί, δι’ ού τά πάντα εγένετο. Τόν δι’ ημάς τούς ανθρώπους καί διά τήν ημετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα εκ τών ουρανών καί σαρκωθέντα εκ Πνεύματος ‘Αγίου καί Μαρίας τής Παρθένου καί ενανθρωπήσαντα. Σταυρωθέντα τε υπέρ ημών επί Ποντίου Πιλάτου καί παθόντα καί ταφέντα.
Καί αναστάντα τή τρίτη ημέρα κατά τάς Γραφάς.
Καί ανελθόντα είς τούς ουρανούς καί καθεζόμενον εκ δεξιών τού Πατρός.
Καί πάλιν ερχόμενον μετά δόξης κρίναι ζώντας καί νεκρούς, ού τής βασιλείας ουκ εσται τέλος.
Καί είς τό Πνεύμα τό ¨Αγιον, τό Κύριον, τό ζωοποιόν, τό εκ τού Πατρός εκπορευόμενον, τό σύν Πατρί καί Υιώ συμπροσκυνούμενον καί συνδοξαζόμενον, τό λαλήσαν διά τών Προφητών.
Είς μίαν, αγίαν, καθολικήν καί αποστολικήν Έκκλησίαν. ‘Ομολογώ εν βάπτισμα είς άφεσιν αμαρτιών. Προσδοκώ ανάστασιν νεκρών. Καί ζωήν τού μέλλοντος αιώνος.
Άμήν.
(That's the way I had to memorize it.)
The English goes like this (reasonably literal translation):
I believe in one God, Father, all-powerful, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things seen or unseen;
and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the unique Son of God who was begotten/generated from the Father before all worlds/ages; Light from Light, true God out of / from true God, begotten/generated, not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things were made -- the one who for us humans (and for our salvation) came down out of the heavens and was enfleshed from (the) Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary and was 'enhumaned'. He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate and suffered and was buried.
And on the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven and was seated at (lit. from) the right (hand) of the Father. He is coming again with glory to judge living and dead. Of His kingdom will not be an end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Life-giver, the One proceeding from / out of the Father, the One Who with the Father and Son is worshiped and glorified, the One who spoke through the prophets.
And in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I confess/declare one baptism into remission of sin. I look forward to resurrection of dead (ones) and life of the coming age/world.
Amen.
Clive Staples Lewis wrote a poem where my point is made:
No Beauty We Could Desire
Yes, you are always everywhere. But I,
Hunting in such immeasurable forests,
Could never bring the noble Hart to bay.
The scent was too perplexing for my hounds;
Nowhere sometimes, then again everywhere.
Other scents, too, seemed to them almost the same.
Therefore I turn my back on the unapproachable
Stars and horizons and all musical sounds,
Poetry itself, and the winding stair of thought.
Leaving the forests where you are pursued in vain
--Often a mere white gleam--I turn instead
To the appointed place where you pursue.
Not in Nature, not even in Man,
but in one
Particular Man, with a date, so tall, weighing
So much, talking Aramaic, having learned a trade;
Not in all food, not in all bread and wine
(Not, I mean, as my littleness requires)
But this wine, this bread ... no beauty we could desire.
--C.S. Lewis
He makes the point that Christianity is grounded in history, in details pinned to mundane lives in a particular place and time. And that leads to a small theme in the Bible, expressed nicely in the invitation, "Now come, let us reason together" and "taste, and see that the Lord is good", and "test all things". I'm not saying it as well as I could (and ought), but what God says is to
not jump blindly into faith, but look at the evidence and decide.
So the answer is "I believe because I considered the evidence". It may not be evidence one might test in a lab, it may be evidence one considers insufficient, but it is evidence.
