The "Right" to be Fat

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

sure .. everybody has the right to be fat. but if someone deliberately chooses to live extremely unhealthy, any insurance or public healthcare company should have the right to deny you payments/membership.

Wow, I really can't believe how much I disagree with that. Who gets to decide what constitutes and extremely unhealthy lifestyle? I've never met an obese person who was completely happy with themselves and now we want them to go broke or die in the gutter as well? I agree with Just Believe, this is the same argument people used against gays in the 80's and it kind of sickens me when I hear crap like "Why should MY tax dollars have to go to blah blah blah...."

We live in an advanced civilization where taking care of those who are less productive and less able is a mark of that civilization and to those who want to earmark their own "tax dollars" let me enlighten you that it doesn't work that way, never has and never will.

Why should you have to subsidize someone else's life decisions? Because you always have and you always will and guess what, other people are subsidizing YOURS as well. It always easy to point at the vice's of others (especially vices in which you don't share) as the culprit while ignoring your own (as vulgar newcomer eloquently put it.)

Now, you REALLY want to do something about the unhealthy lifestyle choices? STOP selling cigarettes. Don't tax them out the ass and CLAIM it's because you want people to quit while you are collecting said tax and using it to balance your own budget. The "we want people to be healthy" line rings very hollow when you are financially rewarded for the sale of the very same cigarettes you are demonizing.

The stupid soda law is nothing more than a bullshit attempt to LOOK as though we are dealing with a problem.

 

[JayQueer]

sure .. everybody has the right to be fat. but if someone deliberately chooses to live extremely unhealthy, any insurance or public healthcare company should have the right to deny you payments/membership.

I agree with Corny

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

I agree with Corny

Wait a minute, you're always saying that you're obese and yet you are giving a thumbs up to the idea that you should be denied health insurance because of it?
That makes no sense.......

oh, or are you one of the "good" obese people who DIDN'T get there through any fault of his own?

 

[Kabluey]

If you were to walk down the street with a 64oz coke almost anywhere else in the world, you'd be a freak show - that's two litres.

Looks like perceived value for money gone crazy.
Is it just as easy and cheap to buy non-soft drinks - and if so is there as much variety?
If not then perceived consumer choice is being channeled by the sellers anyway, they must be trying to normalize higher margin novelty size serves.

 

[Corny]

Note that I said "deliberately". I am *not* talking about denying healthcare to all fat people. I am talking about denying healthcare to those people who say "fuck that, i am obese but i do want my 5 litres of soda every day, just because". The kind of people who protest against measures where their already obese children won't get extra fries in school anymore.

Oh and being gay, I wouldn't consider an "unhealthy lifestyle". Being someone who says "Oh I bareback, 'cause it's so much more fun .. and bug-chasing is a thrill" .. now that's a different kind of deal .. and yes, actually someone who does that doesn't deserve any healthcare, either.

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

Note that I said "deliberately". I am *not* talking about denying healthcare to all fat people. I am talking about denying healthcare to those people who say "fuck that, i am obese but i do want my 5 litres of soda every day, just because".

But in this plan, how do you determine who is who?

"Tell me sir, are you fat because you said fuck it I want my big sodas?"

Who in their RIGHT mind would say yes?

"Mr. x, this is the insurance company and we are denying your HIV meds because you were overheard by a coworker in June of 2009 claiming that you liked barebacking"

How are they to determine who are the "good" gays who should be covered and the "bad" gays who should be left to fend for themselves?

Oh and being gay, I wouldn't consider an "unhealthy lifestyle".

You're assuming you get a say. On right wing forums we are routinely referred to as "death worshipers" so what makes you think your definition trumps theirs when it comes to splitting the hairs between the gays.

Should all these people who are left out of health coverage because "it's their own fault" also be turned away from emergency rooms? THAT'S more expensive to the taxpayer so should they be turned out to teach them a lesson and validate that gym membership we bought? Where has our humanity gone?

 

[Just_Believe18]

Ok then.

Then you would surely be in favor of a law that mandates that all gay men should be required to submit to regular HIV testing, and all gay men must use a condom when having sex with another man. All openly gay men who are sexually active should be required to show proof that they regularly purchase condoms, and provide the government with regular HIV test results.

In addition, the government should shut down all gay bathhouses, saunas, and "spas", like they did during the early years of the HIV/AIDS crisis in the 1980s.

You would be on board with this idea?


Basically you want the government out of your bedroom when it comes to gay sex and preventing HIV transmission, but you surely want big government when it comes to controlling obesity.

No, that is not correct to what I am saying. In that same paragraph I am disagreeing with Corny in punishing an individual for the decisions they make about their own life. We have regulations to protect food and how it is processed and distributed already. Our food is safer than most countries in this world. You worry about "big government" controlling our food supply, but that is already happening. The federal government subsidizes high fructose corn syrup that goes into a majority of just about everything Americans drink. Our federal and state governments serve pizza, french fries, and other fattening foods to growing and developing children in schools. The control is already there. It's just going in the wrong direction. Regulation and protections should be made to protect the consumer from becoming obese, not contributing to it. Your tax dollars should not subsidize making people fat. Here's an example of what I mean:

I hope this post clarifies what I am trying to say here.


@Corny.
I still disagree with you there, Corny. By what standard should the government or insurance agency deny coverage to a gay man with HIV because of how he contracted it? Does he have to verbally say he loves to bareback with anonymous strangers to deny coverage? Who makes that call? Everyone deserves health care.

 

[Spiff]

Why doesn't anyone start a thread about the fact that gay men suffer from eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia at comparable levels than that of women??

Instead of expecting someone to do it for you, why don't you start it if you are so passionate about that topic?

 

[justdra]

The intent is good but won't work in my opinion. I will just order 2 of the largest sizes I can get and call it a day. Also most people working the counters could care less what you buy, especially at convenience stores. And then wait for the day where someone buys a 44 ounce refill mug and can't get it filled, all he'll gonna break loose, then the lawyers will show up.

 

[Benvolio]

You are all exaggerating the extent to which being over weight increases medical risk. Some, yes, but I have never heard of an insurance company denying coverage for overweight. Perhaps in the extreme range. Other conditions involve more risk, which may or may not be accompanied with overweight: hypertension, diabetes, coronary heart disease, and many more. The additional risk from overweight does not justify the loss of freedom.

 

[Kabluey]

We don't grant people the right to severe anorexia, in fact you can be committed to a psych ward for treatment in many places.
Should severe obesity be treated in the same manner? Should severe obesity be treated as a psychological disorder?
Both are destructive behaviours.

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

Both are destructive behaviours.

It's just funny to me that, in these scenarios, it's always the OTHER guy that has the problems while our own behaviors we always consider to be above reproach.

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

You are all exaggerating the extent to which being over weight increases medical risk. Some, yes, but I have never heard of an insurance company denying coverage for overweight. Perhaps in the extreme range. Other conditions involve more risk, which may or may not be accompanied with overweight: hypertension, diabetes, coronary heart disease, and many more. The additional risk from overweight does not justify the loss of freedom.

I don't know WHAT the fuck is going on but this makes like, five of your posts today that I've read and actually AGREED with!!!**



**although I must admit I'm not agreeing that we have a "right" to large sodas, I'm speaking more figuratively

 

[Just_Believe18]

You are all exaggerating the extent to which being over weight increases medical risk. Some, yes, but I have never heard of an insurance company denying coverage for overweight. Perhaps in the extreme range. Other conditions involve more risk, which may or may not be accompanied with overweight: hypertension, diabetes, coronary heart disease, and many more. The additional risk from overweight does not justify the loss of freedom.

Every doctor and scientist just cried out in a tinge of unexplainable pain at such a baseless rejection of scientific study and empirical observation.

I cannot even begin to respond to this. Will you tell us all next that the world is flat?

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

Every doctor and scientist just cried out in a tinge of unexplainable pain at such a baseless rejection of scientific study and empirical observation.

In benvolio's defense (words that shock ME as much as they shock you) I don't think he is saying that obesity does NOT increase medical risk, just that obesity ALONE has become the "new" scapegoat for all that is wrong with our society without including other factors. At least, that was my initial read of it.

 

[Just_Believe18]

The other factors he's included have all medically been linked to obesity itself: Hypertension, diabetes, coronary heart disease are all medically proven consequences of obesity.

That's what obesity does. It causes heart problems. It causes hypertension. It also increases the likelihood of someone becoming diabetic. Where is the exaggeration or separation here?

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

That's what obesity does. It causes heart problems. It causes hypertension. It also increases the likelihood of someone becoming diabetic. Where is the exaggeration or separation here?

I get that, and I don't THINK anyone is claiming that obesity isn't an issue (and I'm not trying to come across as pro-obesity which I don't think is even a thing) but "overweight" just becomes an easy to see thing that we can wag a finger at while discounting the dangers of things that aren't as easy to spot.

Addition: And I'm all for your idea of holding restaurants and food providers accountable for the amount of fat, calories and sodium (among other things) that they are feeding us. I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of always blaming the end-user and calling it a day. Fat people have enough troubles without me telling them they deserve what they get.

 

[JayHawk]

I doubt anyone has pushed it and I am seriously tired of proving obesity is epidemic in America whenever the random fat thread rolls into CE&P. How is it difficult to understand that going from one state in 1972 that has >30% obesity (Mississippi) to having almost the entire country having >30% obesity is not increasing the physical consequences on Americans?

So if that is agreed which i will assume any ration human being can agree THEN you must develop a solution. That solution cannot be to ask doctors to violate their own oaths to help all. It also cannot morph this society into a giant death panel using insurance. If that was the case then we wouldn't have drug rehab. Just let em die off from OD, right? No obesity is a cultural norm spurred on by a society that believes that if it deosnt hurt anyone else then you should go ahead an do it if you like.

The problem is obese people do affect those around them. They end up on Disability more often and at younger ages. They die and leave there spawn for me to care for out of government dollars. They clog the hospital so i can't get there when i have an issue. So what is the fix?

You cant mandate health. Won't work and is morally reprehensible.

You can't leave the status quo. It isnt working.

So you can penalize the behavior to pay for the solution. If tubby tubby would like a 172oz sugar filled death soda then let him pay ten dollars a refill for it. Alter the subsidies so that our veggies and fruit have a better fighting chance over the cattle industry. Incentivize the desired behavior and you will get it over time.

ANyways. vent complete. Carry on.

 

[Benvolio]

The other factors he's included have all medically been linked to obesity itself: Hypertension, diabetes, coronary heart disease are all medically proven consequences of obesity.

That's what obesity does. It causes heart problems. It causes hypertension. It also increases the likelihood of someone becoming diabetic. Where is the exaggeration or separation here?

Look again. I said they may or may not be accompanied br overweight. Many who are not overweight have hypertension, diabetes, heart disease. Not all fat people have any of those conditions. Type 1 diabetes is not associated with over weight. For that matter, not all people who drink soda become fat. Those who do eat other things as well and do not become fat because they drink pop alone. Don't be in such a hurry to submit to authority. It is not like government agencies don 't make big mistakes, and they alway seek ways to extend their regulation.

 

[LuvFindsAndyHardy]

They die and leave there spawn for me to care for out of government dollars. They clog the hospital so i can't get there when i have an issue.

WOW! Spawn? That is a really ugly post.

They clog the hospitals with their "issues" huh? Make it hard for you to get seen about your (perfectly acceptable and, I'm sure, far above reproach) issue? What "issues" to do you have, because I would like to know so that I can determine whether or not I think the "issue" that causes you to clog the hospital in front of ME is one of which I approve (and one for which I will decide whether is or isn't your own fault.)

Thanks