The Secret-Gender Baby

[BlondeCanadian]

Sorry I started a new thread about this not seeing this one.... I am pretty ashamed of some of these comments made on this thread just going under my assumption that the gay community would be more understanding that societal norms are not necessarily beneficial to society.....


The way I see it is
A) This child is an infant. This is all beyond its grasp right now and there is no harm coming to it atm. The parents said they do not know how long they are going to continue doing this.
B) As of right now I think they are almost protecting this child from societies pressing of gender norms on the child and at the same time are protecting it from persecution. by not telling anyone its sex will anyone know it is a boy in girls clothes or vice versus and persecute it?
C) I know they will not be able to keep this up for ever and so do they they just seem to be trying to keep outside factors from influencing the childs gender.
D) some people should have done a better job reading the article. These parents are not pushing any agenda on these children accept probably acceptance.. The other two sons are completely aware of their Gender and make choices on their own about what they want to wear.. The article said the one boy liked dresses because he liked the way they felt. perfectly valid and if I was a braver man I would agree and wear one too because I am sure it would feel good. or perhaps if my parents hadnt raised me to confirm to societal norms I would wear a dress and have had a whole lot more of an easier time accepting myself as gay.

 

[BlondeCanadian]

Re: Parents keeds childs Gender a Secret

sorry i switched back and commented on the one hotboy linked.. still pretty disapointed on the comments made ont he previous one and hope that the discussion will keep going.

Jayden they dont want society pushing gender norms on their child. The article is very interesting you should read it.

 

[MyReply]

These people are idealistic kooks. Everyone's gender plays a significant part in their identity as a person…and there's nothing wrong with that. This child's parents are robbing him/her of that very basic structure, all for the sake of being radical new ageists who have an obnoxious desire to step outside of the box of conformity. They don't live on an island by themselves; they live in society. And their take on this is abnormal and counterproductive.

 

[BlondeCanadian]

"abnormal and counterproductive"
Wow, considering those are some of the very most basic critiques lobbied at the gay community I find this remark astonishing.
Have you ever studied Sociology or Psychology at all because gender is socially constructed and is not a natural process resulting in kids with penises liking to play with trucks and girls playing with barbies? These parents are not denying their kids gender identity they are merely allowing their kids to decide for themselves what gender if any they want to associate with and how much gender of a role that is going to play in their own identity...

Persecution from mainstream society may be a problem for these kids but the article mentioned there theory that these while they may be persecuted on the playground would likely be bullied sometime regardless and if brought up like this might be more likely to handle it better and more likely to stand up to bullying than the other poor children who feel like they are wrong by not being able to conform 100% to social norms.

 

[pat grimshaw]

… I am pretty ashamed of some of these comments made on this thread just going under my assumption that the gay community would be more understanding that societal norms are not necessarily beneficial to society.....…

I can't understand how you could be 'ashamed'. You can't be held responsible for other people's opinions in our diverse, multicultural and pluralistic society…unless you believe in PC.

 

[BlondeCanadian]

I would have just hoped that those of us who have been on the other side of the track of social norms would be more accepting in nature to those who do not buy into the ideas and do not try to push them on their children.... But this thread has gotten more hate than the article comments

 

[pat grimshaw]

… But this thread has gotten more hate than the article comments

I'm sorry to say there as many gay haters and gay idiots as there are heterosexual ones. I reckon it's better to face reality rather than be in a cocoon like this child who's being used as someone else's guinea-pig.

 

[BlondeCanadian]

How would you suggest doing it differently? There is always a first and it is not easy but who are we to say this is wrong or unnatural especially considering we are considered wrong and unnatural by many..

 

[bankside]

I don't think they're imposing anything on him. From what I understand the parents have fairly conventional modern notions of gender. They're just giving the kid a different introduction to those concepts. I'm sure of all parents they will be better positioned to help the kid develop his or her authentic gender identity. Which will probably look much like yours or mine or anybody's.

I get the impression that if a couple of parents decided to raise their kid without assuming the kid was straight that there would be just as much whining about that. "How will the kid develop if you don't tell him he's straight? He'll grow up without rules! What do you mean the kid might be gay? What are the chances of that?"

 

[blackbeltninja]

I don't think they're imposing anything on him.

This is the problem in a nutshell.

-d-

 

[yummylongsword]

I have to say, independence is great, but conforming to society does have its benefits.

Would wearing dresses be more comfortable? Probably, I'm sure they're quite breezy and soft. However, is wearing a dress really worth the struggle and antagonism and weird looks and lack of friends that I would experience? Nope, I don't think so.

I think it's important that children are taught what's "normal," and also taught that you can deviate from that if you want to. If a child really wants to make the effort to deviate from what's normal, they need to know the costs associated with that choice. Some things, such as favorite colors or toys, don't really matter that much. Really, the only things that are entirely "off-limits" for men are dresses, skirts, and make-up.

So if your boy likes wearing make-up, dresses and skirts... I would tell him that most boys wear pants and no make-up, but if they really want to, they can.

 

[yummylongsword]

^

You do realize the child will learn this anyway regardless of how the parents handle his/her gender early on, right?

Yes, they will... once they start school (at what, 5?) when they've already developed a sense of self and of identity. He'll go to school wearing a dress, and he won't understand why the boys hit him and the girls laugh at him and he'll be confused, because he doesn't know what gender is, or what role gender plays. The first five years of your life are really, really important, and having no gender structure at that age can change your brain in ways we don't really know; like I said, making your child into an experiment is not okay, in my opinion.

It's like letting the kid make whatever sounds he wants, to "explore his vocal freedom"; so what if he doesn't know how to speak or communicate when he goes to school? He's doing what feels RIGHT to him, not what society says he has to do (speak).

 

[yummylongsword]

If he wants to wear a dress at age 5, and the boys hut him and girls laugh at him, aren't they the ones with the problem, not the boy?

This is similar to saying "don't let your child be gay, he'll be oppressed!"

We've been through this. YES, they are the ones with the problem, but there's nothing we can do about that. It comes down to the choice between being accepted and doing what you dislike, or doing what you like and being rejected.

Once you're old enough to make the decision to face the harder life of going against the norm, then you should feel free to. But children don't have the ability to make good choices for themselves, and so it's important that a parent makes choices for them that will best allow them to be successful later in life. Like I said, the kid needs to be fully aware of his options. Hiding him away from society's expectations completely will not prepare him for the rest of his life.

Every parent indoctrinates their child into what society says is correct. Should children say please and thank you? I personally think they're erroneous and unnecessary formalities, but society says that you should use them; therefore, children should be taught to say please and thank you. The same thing goes for yelling in public, or for running around in small places; you COULD allow your child to do that and face the negative attention, but why would you? It's not setting them up for success.

 

[xseeker69]

I consider myself to be liberal, open minded and sometimes pretty far out but these parents come across as idiots. if a child is born with a vagina, it's a girl. If the child is born with a penis, it's a boy. And that simply is that.
I could understand if a boy wants to play with dolls and dresses and letting him do that or if a girl plays with cars and guns. Me, I liked spaceships and robots! But not telling a kid if it's a boy or a girl? Total rubbish, in my opinion.
I wonder...do the parents practice what they preach? Does the father have pink hair in doggie ears (think Cindy Brady) and wear a dress? Why not?
BTW, this would be a perfect episode for Southpark.

 

[Jack Springer]

If he wants to wear a dress at age 5, and the boys hut him and girls laugh at him, aren't they the ones with the problem, not the boy?

This is similar to saying "don't let your child be gay, he'll be oppressed!"

What if the kid wanted to play with matches? put forks in the electrical outlet? Should the parents accept that because he/she wanted to express themselves?

What if the boy/girl insisted that his father wear a pink dress and paint his nails pink when he went to work -- the kid wouldn't understand why his father couldn't feel "free" to express himself.

All this is stacking up to make this couple's children a bunch of weirdos that will have trouble adjusting to the real world.

Very sad. And just plain crazy.

 

[bankside]

This is the problem in a nutshell.

-d-

Not imposing things is a problem?

Maybe this will be clearer in another context:
In Saudi Arabia, a person is born, then they check to see if there is a penis or not. From that moment the future is set in stone. Based on that one quirk of nature, in a split second, it is decided whether you will ever drive a car or not, what your testimony will be worth in court, where you will be allowed to shop, how much and what kinds of education you will be permitted to obtain, whether you can travel in your own name or whether you will need the permission of someone who does happen to have a penis, whether you can divorce at your convenience, and who will get subsequent custody of the child.

If the pendulum had swung to the other extreme, instead of forcing that kind of future on their kids, these parents would be refusing to allow their child to develop any kind of gender identity at all. Every time Pat plays with a barbie, hshe then has to play with a truck. Every time Pat imitates a Karate move on TV, hshe then has to practice a ballet move. Hshe would be punished inside a "gender neutral" straightjacket simply for not sitting on the fence.

But they are not swinging that pendulum to the opposite of the Saudi extreme. They're just giving the kid a chance to figure it out without the imposition. That's a good thing. These parents are not proposing to "correct" the child who naturally takes an interest in something stereotypically male or stereotypically female.

Do they need to mask the gender to achieve all that? I don't think so; to me it is obvious that pretty much all of what life has to offer is available to men or women equally. But even if it is not to the same extent, Saudi Arabia is not the only place where a child's future is decided on a word. And I can't blame them for taking this approach.

If and when the kid develops a trend, I'm 100% certain they'll be a positive support for this kid's own natural development. That would make them better parents than those who would impose something possibly when the kid is fine with it, but also possibly against the grain of what the kid actually feels.

 

[blackbeltninja]

Yes, not imposing things is a problem.

You want the kid to figure everything out for itself? Some things are instinctive and or driven by necessity, which is why some animals which get lost in the wild or get abandoned don't always die (but are not always "successful" in joining another herd/pride/troop), and some things need to be learned or at least guided.

This is how society has evolved over the last few hundred thousand years since Australopithecus. Given where we are now I'd say the system works well enough to advise that it ain't broke so don't fix it.

If you want to not correct the child when it makes decisions "inappropriate" to its gender, just don't correct it. But there's no harm in telling the kid what the norm is and stressing that it does not need to always conform, and no point in sending it out into the world all naive and innocent like Bambi.

I understand what they think they're trying to do, but it's not something which can work in isolation. Whatever merit this little experiment has - and it IS an experiment, regardless of what the parents say - would be best done in a group of like-minded people in a semi-isolated environment. You can get no meaningful data from this one-shot thing. In terms of making a statement if the parents did have a secondary aim to do just that, this one-shot thing would be far better executed in Saudi Arabia than out in liberal Canada.

-d-

 

[sixthson]

This thread has taken the inevitable leap from parents not disclosing the sex of their child to a 5 year old boy going to school in a dress, so let's take it from there.
We hear alot about the negative side of peer pressure, the kind where kids have to "conform" to be acceptable, especially to be a part of certain clicques. Or perhaps having the latest and coolest toys, gadgets or electronics (like an 8 year old needs a cell phone??) is a requirement to fit in.
There is, however, a good side to peer pressure. Most kids want the approval of their peers because they want to fit in and not be an alien. I don't know many adults who haven't benefited from correction or rebuke from their friends. Why would children be any different? Usually their friends tell them their actions are just not cool.
I think home schooling is a good thing, but one of the things most often commented about when referring to kids who have been homeschooled is that they are lacking in social skills or they haven't been socialized. Parents cannot teach their children everything. Social skills are mostly learned from interacting with their peers.
A 5 year old boy wearing a pink frock to school is likely to have no peers right from the get-go. You can argue all you want that the response he gets from others is their problem, but it is just not true. It's just inviting trouble.
What if the little boy wanted to dress in a Nazi uniform and paint on a Hitler moustache and go to school? How long do you thing that kind of individual uniqueness would be tolerated? Why should it even be encouraged?

 

[fetaby]

Three things...

1. Millions of years of development.... It's differentiation and experimentation that afforded us a path forward. That's true then and now.

2. Hitler was not a woman...

3.

What if the little boy wanted

I know you'll say that in your hypothetical, the child is a boy. In the case of the OP, we do not know this. What if the little girl wanted to wear a t-shirt and blue jeans?

The superficiality of these double standards is what is being questioned here.

 

[blackbeltninja]

^These are all valid points.

But what happens on that day where the kid meets a wall of fan-hitting shit from its peers? One little kid vs The World is most likely only going to end one way, and I doubt it's going to be with all the other little (and bigger) kids running home wanting to be gender-free. This kid will be completely bewildered having met zero resistance from parents (and presumably older siblings will not be allowed to interfere) and will not have the faintest idea how to respond.

And if it has the misfortune of going to school with the kind of shitty misanthropic sociopaths I went to school with, this will carry on for many, many years as "haha, that's the boy who came to school in a dress!" right up through high school and beyond. As I said earlier, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and that's all well and good. As long as it doesn't kill you.

-d-