The truth of Jesus.

[Willie Boy]

And what are these facts you claim to have?

 

[bankside]

I am equally willing to believe in Wotan. Or unicorns. Welcome aboard, minty.

 

[FirmaFan]

reminds me of this:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrNRU3n2h_o&feature=PlayList&p=B7FCAC58E451C067&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=101"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrNRU3n2h_o&feature=PlayList&p=B7FCAC58E451C067&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=101[/ame]

 

[Kennylingus]

You guys are so offensive to me as a Christian.

Ad you don't even care.

Unless I say the word nigger or spic I can't get any real attention for the cause I believe in.

 

[miguelfukt]

thanks for trying to spread the word! he stated all the facts in his post!

 

[lambdaboy]

The minute Jesus Freaks even hint at Homosexuality being a problem they loose me.

I was created by what ever created the rest.

If Jesus existed as is written he would have been killed byhis own people before he was 22 for not being married. It did not happen back then ever. I repeat ever.

As to the bible what a crock!

 

[opinterph]

If you choose to participate in this thread, please discuss the topic in a constructive manner. Do not disrespect those with whom you may disagree.

This forum is for the discussion of religious, spiritual and philosophical issues. All are welcome to post their opinions here.

You are gently reminded that this is a NO FLAMES zone. Disagree with each other, yes. But you are asked to be respectful of each other.

Thanks...

 

[poolerboy]

[...]
I am deeply encouraged by people who argue against christ because it shows that they are willing to believe as soon as they get the "facts" that he is real- AND he is.


1.God sent his only son (Jesus Christ) to die for all of us he did not just die for a certain group of people or "normal people" Romans 3:23 (New International Version)

23.for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
(www.biblegateway.com ( its a nice website to go too for scripture lookups!)

2.The reason is that Of course many know this story- Adam and Eve. Satan deceived us. Genesis 3:1-6 (New International Version)
Genesis 3:1-6 (New International Version)

[...]

All you've done is cited passages from the Bible. You have yet to show that said Bible is telling the truth and how we can know this. Please do not, in the process of doing this, appeal to faith or point to anecdotal evidence as these do not constitute realiable and objective support.

 

[miguelfukt]

its called faith.

 

[TX-Beau]

its called faith.

Poolerboy asked you a perfectly logical question, your answer was faith. He even told you that wasn't going to cut it.

Cop out.

Why should we have faith in your mythology as opposed to someone else's mythology? Why is yours true, and not Bhuddism or Islam?

Because you have "faith."

Onto the merry go round we step:

...God exists - how do you know - because I have faith - why do you have faith - because I prayed to god...

And around and around we go.

Why is it that religious people so much of the time insist that saying "faith," makes something intrinsically true?

It's nice for you I suppose that you have faith, but that means nothing to the rest of us. It certainly doesn't inspire the rest of us to believe in your god.

If you want us to take your religious claims seriously, you're going to need a better argument.

 

[TX-Beau]

You guys are so offensive to me as a Christian.

Very Christlike there.

Perhaps instead of telling us how offensive you find us, you might try some of that humility and compassion that Christ kept harping about.

 

[TX-Beau]

Also our human knowledge is so limited that we cannot say things and prove that it is right. The bible was also not written all at the same time by some random man. It was written all at different times, that is why every chapter of the bible is important. For that reason.

Ok, welcome! I'm not really sure where you're going with this.

If you aren't a Christian the whole notion that there's something intrinsically wrong with being gay falls right off the radar. I never have to have that conversation with myself.

Second, human knowledge is finite, but there are still things we can prove are true. For example we can prove that water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen, we can prove a whole lot of things that make your modern life work.

What we can't prove is religion, because religion is explicitly set up as an unprovable philosophical proposition.

Regard:

...God exists, he wants us to believe in him and follow his book, OK, but he requires that we believe in him without any kind of evidence. This is called faith, and it's so important that without it you can't be saved, so don't ask for proof, just believe, and you'll get your proof after you're dead...

HUH? We can't prove god exists because he won't give us any proof. Catch 22 - and if you ask for proof, your faith is lacking and you can't know god. Which casts this question back down here on the ground, into the realm of probabilities.

how probable is it really that there is an invisible super person keeping naughty/nice lists on my life, all the while telling me to follow his book just 'cause?

This isn't just Christianity, it goes for most god based religious practice. I'm sure you think it's highly improbable that multiple armed Indian goddesses are any kind of real or ever were. I'm sure you look at them and wonder how anyone could believe in them.

But you'd never apply that kind of critical thinking to your own God, who looks a hell of a lot like Shiva from the outside.

 

[poolerboy]

its called faith.

How does faith establish truth exactly? I'm sure faith can give one the feeling of truth, but I fail to see how it would be a reliable way of looking for truth, let alone serve as a tool for establishing it.

 

[Royal Heart]

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.

Mark 16:17 - 16:18

So according to Jesus himself, Christians can drink deadly poison and it will not hurt them. So, tell me, mintyfresh and other JUB Christians - how strong is your faith? Strong enough to render Drain-o harmless?

 

[TX-Beau]

How does faith establish truth exactly? I'm sure faith can give one the feeling of truth, but I fail to see how it would be a reliable way of looking for truth, let alone serve as a tool for establishing it.

I have faith that I'm going to win the lottery. It's why I keep buying tickets.

I never have won, but I have faith that I will.

So it's not a pointless drain on my income to spend all that money on lotto tickets. I'll be repaid when I win. It's an investment really.

Faith - it doesn't create 6 winning numbers, it just let's me feel good for believing despite the odds, and gives me permission for basing my actions around the unlikely.

 

[FirmaFan]

Faith - it doesn't create 6 winning numbers, it just let's me feel good for believing despite the odds, and gives me permission for basing my actions around the unlikely.

Nice post, because it wonderfully illustrates the biggest problem I have with faith, specifically that last part. People's faith gives permission to base actions around the unlikely. This is what comes to my mind when I hear that:

The promise of heaven may be unlikely, but faith gives permission to kill abortion doctors to ensure that reward.

The reward of 72 virgins may be unlikely, but faith gives permission to fly planes into buildings.

Because faith isn't based upon any real world evidence, faith allows a person to believe whatever they want to believe...the possibilities are literally infinite. And if that faith is so sternly believed that it is used to justify real world actions, ANY action can be justified, and regard to consequences or other people is all but completely eliminated.

The lottery analogy is good but slightly flawed, and further demonstrates the danger of faith. People do not REALLY have "faith" that they might win. Faith does not actually factor into lottery. Lottery is based upon probabilities. They have only a slight probability of actually winning, but that slight probability does exist. It does not require faith. It may be a waste of money to bet on something with such a low probability to some, but to some it is not, because a chance of winning does actually exist. Faith in spiritual beliefs is based on something far less than that. It is based upon something that has absolutely NO evidence of actually existing at all. Yet some of people's most important life choices are probably made based upon faith...far bigger a gamble than any lottery game could ever be.

 

[poolerboy]

So according to Jesus himself, Christians can drink deadly poison and it will not hurt them. So, tell me, mintyfresh and other JUB Christians - how strong is your faith? Strong enough to render Drain-o harmless?

Dr. Bart Ehrman on this issue:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m2vW22NRjE[/ame]

 

[cyravance]

"Faith in spiritual beliefs is based on something far less than that. It is based upon something that has absolutely NO evidence of actually existing at all."

Well, of course. That's the definition of faith, an assured expectation of something unseen and unproven. If you knew for a FACT that the thing existed via hard evidence, it wouldn't require faith to believe in it.

 

[NotThatCreative]

The problem with proselytizing is that you are asking us to believe in something against logic and evidence. That may very well be the definition of faith. Which is all very well. But what I would love for one person to answer satisfactorily is this question I have on that: What about faith is so desirable? Why is that such a desirable thing?

To believe in something in the absence of or against evidence and logic is not, in my view, a virtue. Why is it a virtue to this deity? Why is faith such a desirable trait that it's worth the majority of people suffering eternal damnation and torture (hell) for not having?

Why is faith so valuable that it's worth suffering all we suffer here on earth without knowing for sure if there's anything for us after death? That'd be a comforting thought. I would really like to believe that after I die I go to a place of eternal paradise. But it doesn't make any logical sense, so I don't. Why can't God provide us with comfort?

If all people existed as souls in heaven before they entered an earthly form (as I was taught by the methodist church when I was little), then why were we put here to experience suffering at all?

It all ties back to the virtue of faith. All we experience on earth, all the pain, all the suffering, and most of us will (according to Christian theology) end up in a place of eternal damnation and torture at the end of it. All for "faith." What no one ever explains, though, is why belief against logic and reason is so desirable.

 

[bankside]

The thing is, it is far more compelling if you don't "share" what is true, but you demonstrate it instead. That is a far different, and far more difficult challenge.