The truth of Jesus.

[Royal Heart]

Dr. Bart Ehrman on this issue

Wow. Christianity is so confused, no wonder it attracts the more colourful segments of humanity.

 

[poolerboy]

Uh... I don't want to force anybody to believe. I am just sharing what is true.

No one here suggested you were forcing us to believe. Rather, we were holding you accountable for your assertion that what you are sharing with us is the "truth." Now you want to hide behind the garb of faith. If we didn't believe before, don't you think it was because we had a lack of it? Why would you think citing parts of the Bible would change that? If I cited parts of the Qu'ran or Dianetics (from Scientology) would that make you start believing in their "truth" claims?

As bankside aptly put it:

The thing is, it is far more compelling if you don't "share" what is true, but you demonstrate it instead. That is a far different, and far more difficult challenge.

___

"Faith in spiritual beliefs is based on something far less than that. It is based upon something that has absolutely NO evidence of actually existing at all."

Well, of course. That's the definition of faith, an assured expectation of something unseen and unproven. If you knew for a FACT that the thing existed via hard evidence, it wouldn't require faith to believe in it.

And is why a lot of us (rightfully) don't take faith claims seriously.

 

[hotatlboi]

If you choose to participate in this thread, please discuss the topic in a constructive manner. Do not disrespect those with whom you may disagree.

Well the OP disrespected everyone here imo by stating that homosexuality is a "problem".

 

[hotatlboi]

Hi! Uh I just want to start with a short intro. I known this forum for a while but the reason was that I was unable to register because of my age. This year I guess I finally hit 18!

I'm guessing in that case that you grew up in a very religious home, and have not had much time away from your family yet.

I can only hope that as your physical independence increases that your mental independence will increase as well and you will objectively evaluate the religion you have been taught and decide FOR YOURSELF if it makes sense.

 

[opinterph]

Well the OP disrespected everyone here imo by stating that homosexuality is a "problem".

It is certainly a problem for many Christians to reconcile homosexuality with various other aspects of life and existence that they traditionally associate with their particular system of belief. Nonetheless, my post is intended to emphasize that, in the context of this sub-forum, disagreement with such an understanding or characterization of homosexuality does not license disrespect directed toward the individual who is presumably attempting to honestly communicate or discuss that POV.

 

[Ambrocious]

mintyfresh418: Don't let them get you down man. Your doing something good. Keep your faith in Jesus Christ! Never let go!

 

[poolerboy]

mintyfresh418: Don't let them get you down man. Your doing something good. Keep your faith in Jesus Christ! Never let go!

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusions about its condition is the demand to give up a condition that needs illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo. Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers from the chain, not so that man will wear the chain without any fantasy or consolation but so that he will shake off the chain and cull the living flower." —Karl Marx

 

[Ambrocious]

"Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusions about its condition is the demand to give up a condition that needs illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo. Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers from the chain, not so that man will wear the chain without any fantasy or consolation but so that he will shake off the chain and cull the living flower." —Karl Marx

Ahh yes, coming from a quote of one of the founders of modern Communism. Shall we allow Hitler to educate and sway us on how we aught to treat people as well? If you think so, go read Mein Kampf

 

[poolerboy]

Ahh yes, coming from a quote of one of the founders of modern Communism. Shall we allow Hitler to educate and sway us on how we aught to treat people as well? If you think so, go read Mein Kampf

Way to conjure up a Guilt By Association fallacy. In any event, I was unaware that Marx was a mass murder and megalomaniac, but feel free to enlighten me. Much of the discourse here in the West regarding subjects like socialism and communism have become so taboo that instead of presenting reasoned argument and fair critique, people resort to these knee-jerk reactionary appeals to emotion.

But regardless of what you may feel about Marx, his remark about religion is rather tame and sympathetic. Did you even understand the remark he made or did you close your shut your eyes, plug your ears and yell "I'm not paying attention" as soon as you read the name?

 

[Ambrocious]

Way to conjure up a Guilt By Association fallacy. In any event, I was unaware that Marx was a mass murder and megalomaniac, but feel free to enlighten me. Much of the discourse here in the West regarding subjects like socialism and communism have become so taboo that instead of presenting reasoned argument and fair critique, people resort to these knee-jerk reactionary appeals to emotion.

But regardless of what you may feel about Marx, his remark about religion is rather tame and sympathetic. Did you even understand the remark he made or did you close your shut your eyes, plug your ears and yell "I'm not paying attention" as soon as you read the name?

Let's just say hypothetically that Jeffery Dahmer decided to philosophize about religion and how pointless it is, I may very well not pay a lot of attention because I know the explanations of people who see life as frivolous and how they are void of compassion and love. Naturally I tune out people who refuse to learn to love and love to hate. Call it the "beaten dog syndrome" if you will; if every day you beat your dog JUST AFTER feeding him a really tasty tea bone steak...how apt would this dog be to come back without flinching when you place the steak down for it to eat the next couple of times?

People who do not value life and spit in the face of hope and piss on the dreams of those in love of something greater than all of humanity have an utter failure and a large disconnect with reality. You may call me cruel for not paying a lot of attention to his words. Karl Marx is attempting to dissect religions and profile them scientifically when MOST religions are not founded on a firm scientific basis upfront; usually it is spiritual. He disconnects from the realm of spirituality and inserts crude explanations which demoralize a firm foundation of hope. Without hope there is little to live for. Seeing humanity as a spec of dust is dehumanizing and it takes the adventure out of life and strips hope of it's grace.

We should all be careful at what we philosophize about because you may be talked about in the future and it could very well be molded by your words for the better or for the worse.

I think your anger towards religions is based on an absolute spiritual disconnect and Karl Marx perhaps described how you feel inwardly. Have some hope poolerboy!

 

[poolerboy]

Karl Marx is attempting to dissect religions and profile them scientifically when MOST religions are not founded on a firm scientific basis upfront; usually it is spiritual. He disconnects from the realm of spirituality and inserts crude explanations which demoralize a firm foundation of hope.

Most claims regarding UFO, magic healing, clairvoyance, fairies and the like are also not "founded on a scientific basis" and yet because they are claims about the nature of reality, they trespass on the turf of science overtly. If you want to argue that a Divine Being X exists in an inaccessible realm of reality is either an attempt to argue for either the impossible or the unknowable.

When Marx says, "Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers from the chain, not so that man will wear the chain without any fantasy or consolation but so that he will shake off the chain and cull the living flower," he wishes to express his own love and hope for reality and that people may embrace it (i.e. cull the living flower). Isn't a garden beautiful without needing to believe that their are fairies at the bottom of it too?

Seeing humanity as a spec of dust is dehumanizing and it takes the adventure out of life and strips hope of it's grace.

Couldn't you do that while still finding value in your life through the love you've fostered with your family and friends, love of nature, the joy you get from helping others, etc.?

Moreover, do you ever consider the possibility that reality could be less rosy than whatever belief you may hold that can make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?

I think your anger towards religions is based on an absolute spiritual disconnect and Karl Marx perhaps described how you feel inwardly. Have some hope poolerboy!

Oh I can very much have hope without the need for superstition. Hope and belief are not bilaterially symmetrical.

 

[TX-Beau]

Sorry, It's been a while.

- I cannot demonstrate this faith to you. I can't even do that for myself so how can I do that for you guys.

-If I ever said anything that gave a pinch of offence or pain, please forgive me because that was not what I wanted. Really...


...Uh other than that I , I really hope that I can communicate a bit better, I know I am bad with english-I only wanted Christ to be mentioned here. I only gave a little sense of my self here just cuz I wanted to say that I am not a robot but an actual human being. Haha XD

...PLEASE uh a side not IF there is any insults or hatred that you want to say personally to me - please personal message me it or atleast quote it and refer it to me. Other than that please feel free to personal message me, I hope you guys see me as a little brother and not that guy who is trying to talk to you in the same level as you guys. I'll rather feel like I am talking nonsense like a baby instead of that guy who is trying to piss you off.

Well here is the issue – and it’s almost always the issue in debates between the non-religious and the religious.

Words mean things. You didn’t ask us to accept your lack of or excess of faith. You presented something that you said was true.

Again, words mean things. You presented a religious philosophy that you believe is true. But unfortunately belief isn’t enough to actually MAKE something true.

If you make a statement of belief, people may argue, but there’s nothing inherently falsifiable about that, if you make a statement of truth however. Well, that’s a a horse of a different color, and people are going to expect you to defend that. When you then run to faith as proof, you draw fire. Because unlike you, a lot of people don't accept faith as enough, there must also be reason.

Don’t take this as personal. Unless you get into a personal flame war with someone, what people are generally doing is questioning your philosophy, not your person, and I think we cal all agree that a healthy debate is a good thing.

 

[jeraldjamescapao]

guys nothing will be lost of you will believe in Jesus. If there is no creator & redeemer... Where are we? *a thought to ponder on*

 

[poolerboy]

guys nothing will be lost of you will believe in Jesus.

Try integrity, critical thought and untold hours to empty ritual for starters.

If there is no creator & redeemer... Where are we? *a thought to ponder on*

The same place we're in right now.

 

[FirmaFan]

Mintyfresh,

If I had the patience, I could write out pages and pages of text copied from the Lord of the Rings. It does not make it fact, nor does it provide evidence for it as fact.

 

[NotThatCreative]

The Gospel- Mankind was created to live peacefully, and joyfully, but unfortunate things keeps happening. People continue to suffer from feeling empty,depressed and have all sorts of diseases. Including mental disorders as well with alcohol and drug addictions. Due to the unexplainable repetition of failure in their lives. People who have pouring riches, fame and power are committing suicide. Acts of murders and wars arise because of greed and hatred.
Why do these problems come?

Whether we know it or not, we too are lost in the midst of these problems. There is nobody that can escape from these problems. There is only one way to be set free from this problem.

The day no Christians advocate the death of anyone for things they can't control (like homosexuality), the day Christians don't suffer from diseases/disorders, the day the Catholic Church has fixed the pedophilia problem, the day we discover the Crusades were in fact not about religion, the day there are no rich or greedy Christians, the day there are no Christians anymore who contemplate or attempt suicide, that will be the day when you can use this argument. Until then, your argument falls on its face in the face of logic and evidence. Keep in mind just how many people have killed or died in the name of the Abrahamic God. Or even more specifically in the name of Christ.

Also, given the genocide and ethnic cleansing that goes on in the Old Testament at God's command, I wouldn't be hasty to suggest murder and war arise from only greed and hatred. Unless you meant the greed and hatred of God. In which case, why would I want to bow down and worship Him? Sounds more like someone I'd make my enemy.

This is a God who approved of slavery, the murder of "rebellious" children, genocides and ethnic cleansing, thought of women as property, had all sorts of horrible things happen to one of his most devoted servants to "test" him, and has (in the New Testament) a place of fire where all those who don't believe in him absent logic and evidence go, which is the majority of the population (only 1/3 of the world is Christian).

Don't forget the numerous times he punished innocent descendants and relatives of sinners. In fact, the whole Original Sin concept is God punishing us for something no one alive had anything to do with. How does that jive with modern conceptions of morality? Do you believe it's okay to punish the son and grandson for the sins of the father and grandfather? I don't.

If the Bible were accurate then I'd consider God to be my arch enemy and would actively seek to undermine the efforts of his followers (I'd give their charities a free pass though). As it stands, hard to make an enemy out of someone you don't believe in.

 

[AsianDream]

The Gospel- Mankind was created to live peacefully, and joyfully, but unfortunate things keeps happening.

Unfortuantely Mankind was actually forged by the "undirected" process of evolution - and religion is no more an answer to our problems than any other belief system is.

I'm not sure that lengthy "chapter and verse" quotes from the holy book of your particular religion actually contribute much to debate and logical discussion of these ideas.

 

[slnattak]

Well see I believe in the Law of Attraction. We do have a vibration that we give out. Therefore, when a christian homophobe expects to see the worst in a gay person that's what they see when interacting with us because that's what they want to see. Because they intrinsically view homosexuality as disordered. So they see the side of us that's cruel, selfish, materialistic, overly hedonistic and shallow with sex. All the negative aspects of gay culture.

But when a psychologist who wants to see the best in gay people, when they see us they want to see a very ideal and caring person who was persecuted from society and so we show them our more human side. How we're empathetic people, great with art and fashion, all the positive stereotypes.

The real truth is we're all (well most of us) a gray muddy up in-between. We're neither saints nor sinners. We just are human. There's a shred of soul in the heartless gay sex addict who lives only for his next orgasm, and there's some darkness in the gay activist that does everything right and tries to be a good person.

 

[poolerboy]

Well see I believe in the Law of Attraction.

Oh jeeze don't get me started on this nonsense. This blogger said it better than I can:

Leaving the Secret Magical Church of Oprah

Magical thinking makes no one wiser.

You're in your attic. Water's rising and the attic's far apex is knocking your head as the water laps into your mouth.. The impossible is going down. You're gonna die. Your children are gonna die. And it's got nothing to do with your ability to envision success.

They rescued the family next door yesterday. If you're an Oprah true believer, you must be thinking your visualizations of perfect linens and running water need juju. Obviously, your Power of Intention isn't worthy, if it were, everything would be fine..

I don't know about all y'all, but this is wrong from every which way. That water does not give a shit about anything. It's nature, and it's careless like a distracted second grader with a hot poker. Your life is as incidental to that water as a bloated swine carcass.

If you still believe there's a loving creator attending to your personal outcome, then that creator is doing a bait and switch on the folks that are already dead. Talk about falling down on the job.

It about makes me heartsick to hear survivors thank God or Jesus or Yawheh or Whoever for saving their lives.

It avoids the obvious question of just how Jesus must have felt about the babies and daddies who drowned in an airless horror story of warm oily water that just kept on coming. Were they not as worthy? Did they not see Oprah the day she did "The Secret"?

Get Whatever You Want For Thinking On It Real Hard.

Oprah has been all over this "envision your best life" notion as spelled out in best-selling book and movie, "The Secret." Essentially, it goes, if you wish for a red convertible with enough mental energy, then it's practically in your garage.

Positive thinking is great stuff. I use it in moderation from time to time myself. But, that mansion on the hill will not be mine in exchange for any amount of hard pondering. Hard thinking for personal gain is beyond absurd. And beneath this pillow sham of hooey, everybody knows it. Why else do people consistently credit their own success to hard work, tenacity, great people, education and determination? Because working, acting, learning, going, being, doing—these are the only way to create success. Thinking in your own head about selfish things makes you stupid, credits all the wrong things, and blinds you to your fellows.

This newest brand of selfish-help-through-visualization ripens us to subtly aim a finger at the non-visualizing poor, the ill, the ugly, the fat, the pimply, et al. for being the author of their own suffering. Why, it's practically criminal in some circles.

We absolve ourselves of any moral involvement because it's their fault, not our problem to fix. Now off to yoga and smoothies with ginseng and studying our own pretty princess selves 24/7.

Time was, we were our brother's keeper, when Americans weren't so magicky in their thinking. Barbara Ehrenreich reminds us vividly of the not so long ago in this bit from a larger article on Alternet:

Americans did not start out as deluded optimists. The original ethos, at least of white Protestant settlers and their descendents, was a grim Calvinism that offered wealth only through hard work and savings, and even then made no promises at all. You might work hard and still fail; you certainly wouldn't get anywhere by adjusting your attitude or dreamily "visualizing" success. Calvinists thought "negatively" as we would say today, carrying a weight of guilt and foreboding that sometimes broke their spirits. It was in response to this harsh ethos that positive thinking arose -- among mystics, lay healers, and transcendentalists -- in the 19th century, with its crowd-pleasing message that God, or the universe, is really on your side, that you can actually have whatever you want, if the wanting is focused enough.​

I predict as financial fortunes smile upside down more widely, we'll find fewer people wanting to be held morally responsible for their balance sheets.

It's become criminal to struggle, even when so much is stacked against the marginally moneyed. Not long ago, poverty was everywhere and there was no sin in it—my dad slept head-to-toe with his brother on the bottom bunk while my aunt slept up top. Fine old family, nobody thought a thing. They were well off compared to many, but took no moral superiority for their fortune.

We're in for some tough times that need sober visage and steady hands from some unlikely quarters-- like business and government--to navigate. We no longer have the luxury of fudging the numbers or changing the subject when the problem is unpopular, hard, or just hard to explain.

We certainly can't visualize our way out of the Wall Street bailout and its fallout. I'm sick and tired of being reassured falsely. Do not pat my head. I want a bunch of hardheaded realists who feel the weight of the times, tell the truth, and get us all working together to make things right for everybody.

If winter hits and reality is not the new black, I fear a dearth of smoothies, chai tea lattes, and Spanx.

Pretty princesses-- petulant princes-- the times they are a'changin', and you won't know what it is.​

 

[AsianDream]

Oh jeeze don't get me started on this nonsense.

Not sure I can follow your point - but is it fair to say that you see serious problems in "The truth of Jesus" or that of any other similar religions?