This Forum is full of hate

[EvilForce]

What are ya then? If you are agnostic, then that's like a few baby steps from being an atheist anyway

A.) Agnostic is not "baby steps" away in most opinions.
B.) I'm a Taoist.
C.) Yes, I know the bible forwards, backwards, and inside out.

But when people attack you and your beliefs and religion like a pack of attack dogs, that's when they have gone too far.

Attack dogs? On these JUB forums I haven't seen barely a post or two by the x-tian contingent defending their faith via well reasoned, thought out, logical debate, but rather "OMG, stop the hate!" posts.

If you can't defend your position, that doesn't mean you are being attacked, it means you simply can't or able to defend your position.

 

[Giovanni]

A.) Agnostic is not "baby steps" away in most opinions.
B.) I'm a Taoist.
C.) Yes, I know the bible forwards, backwards, and inside out.



Attack dogs? On these JUB forums I haven't seen barely a post or two by the x-tian contingent defending their faith via well reasoned, thought out, logical debate, but rather "OMG, stop the hate!" posts.

If you can't defend your position, that doesn't mean you are being attacked, it means you simply can't or able to defend your position.

If you really think that, then you are either blind or ignoring some posts. I don't have all night to argue with somebody who thinks what you thinks.

 

[sabot3ur]

(to marley, I obvi respond slow)
"crazy" christians = supported by the bible, no matter how minimally. I get that it's not all christians at all, I'm not saying it is. what about 50 years back and on? yep, it pretty much was all of them. being gay was considered fire and brimstone worthy, for all of religious and social history until pretty much now. it wasn't just supported by a book, it was supported by THE book that most influenced this country, even possibly the world!

pedophiles = genuinely mentally ill, and not members of any so called gay or straight community as far as I'm concerned. I'm not writing them off just because I'm ashamed of them in the gay community or something, I really feel that it's mental illness and terrible manipulative, underdeveloped personalities and not just "gay men who wanna fuck kids"

 

[reverb285]

To refer to pro-gay Christianity as "the twilight zone" you reveal your bias, insisting that if there are tolerant Christians they must be weird somehow.

Boy, you sure like to make shit up. Weird? No, I was very clear about what I thought of such a divergence on that theological issue. I believe I said they are not following the religion authentically. Hence, in that context, their indignation about "their" religion being bashed, strikes me as odd.

The more you talk, the less sense you make, and the more you reveal your biases and prejudices.

Ditto.

 

[reverb285]

I hate when someone claims I'm cherry-picking.

Ok..........

 

[Giovanni]

Again, I think your grievance should be more with those who MISINTERPRET the book. Again, the bible references homosexuality briefly, it CONSTANTLY reinforces themes of love and acceptance and condemns judgment and malevolence. That book your bashing is, again 2% anti-gay, 98% pro-tolerance.



Mentally ill is a man-made term to take away the responsibility of what these people are doing. Killers can claim they're mentally ill and get lightened sentences. Pedophiles know good and damn well what they're doing is wrong, otherwise they wouldn't cover it up, swear the child the secrecy, and do what they do in private. Molesting a child is no more a result of mental illness than stealing. You choose to touch the child, you choose to take the items.

It's agreeable that there are pigs in the gay community, and pigs in the religious community. Instead of acknowledging both, you label the majority of the Christian community as pigs, and put as much lipstick as you can on the gay pigs. I'm still waiting for it to sound less like justified hatred around here. Then the real discussion can begin.

Are you saying there is no such thing as mental illness? Because I know many people who suffer from it badly. Have you ever seen a schizophrenic episode?

 

[sabot3ur]

Again, I think your grievance should be more with those who MISINTERPRET the book. Again, the bible references homosexuality briefly, it CONSTANTLY reinforces themes of love and acceptance and condemns judgment and malevolence. That book your bashing is, again 2% anti-gay, 98% pro-tolerance.



Mentally ill is a man-made term to take away the responsibility of what these people are doing. Killers can claim they're mentally ill and get lightened sentences. Pedophiles know good and damn well what they're doing is wrong, otherwise they wouldn't cover it up, swear the child the secrecy, and do what they do in private. Molesting a child is no more a result of mental illness than stealing. You choose to touch the child, you choose to take the items.

It's agreeable that there are pigs in the gay community, and pigs in the religious community. Instead of acknowledging both, you label the majority of the Christian community as pigs, and put as much lipstick as you can on the gay pigs. I'm still waiting for it to sound less like justified hatred around here. Then the real discussion can begin.

point me in the direction of where I bashed the bible. I'm just saying that those "crazy christians" you keep mentioning aren't so damn crazy afterall, it's just a different interpretation from the same base of your interpretation. they'd say the same of your side, I'm sure, but neither side is pulling their shit out of thin air. I don't believe that they're always hateful people corrupting the word of your religion, they just choose that part to focus on, contrary to the part that you choose to focus on. who am I or anyone else to say who's right, who's crazy on the topic of religion?

and I'm not saying choosing to molest a child is mental illness alone, the desire and the fascination with children puts it in a whole other category. pedophiles aren't just horny motherfuckers who'll try kids, they really are sick people! just as rape isn't really just to get someones rocks off; it's a crime of power and domination, and comes from a different place than normal human sexuality.

 

[Giovanni]

There is a such thing as mental illness, I never said there wasn't. My best friend is schizophrenic (runs in his family on the dad's side) and is convinced that he's an arch-angel sent from the devil to destroy the Earth. Don't ask him about it, he'll go on for days. I've got some bi-polar people in my family so I'm well aware.

Since we were discussing pedophiles, I was referring to mental illness in the context of crimes. Mental illness and crimes is usually clever wordplay by lawyers to take away the responsibility of the criminal they're defending. Even if pedophilia is a mental illness, it's only the desire that's a mental illness. The entire process is premeditated. You pick a child (pedophiles usually befriend the parents), you find a time and place where you can be alone, you commit the crime, you tell the child not to tell anyone. There's LOTS of planning and thought involved, and it often happens over a period of time with multiple victims.

I can hardly imagine anyone, upon the discovery that their little brother or nephew has been molested, begging the judge for lenience because "the defendant was mentally ill."

Well, when you said it was man-made, I took it as you saying as someone made the term up and it doesn't actually exist. I apologize then

 

[JackFTwist]

Just about ever religion that concerns itself with procreation and transcendence, appears to have something bad to say about homosexuality, albeit many of the "adherent" ignore and cherry pick. I suppose it's a good thing that there is some cherry-picking, but at the same time, the people doing so can't be said to be following the religion authentically.

and by what right do you have to judge whether other people follow their faith traditions "authentically" or not? I suggest you have no right to just the authenticity of others. Especially when your judgmentalism steams from you think "appears" to be what various faiths have taught historically. From an appearance (on which you are, in fact, wrong) you judge the private integrity of others.

Ok, Professor of World Religion, what is your take on Boswell's discourse on same sex unions in premodern Europe, and how that may speak to Wink's work on the same from before the common era?

What are ya then? If you are agnostic, then that's like a few baby steps from being an atheist anyway

That's not fair to agnosticism, which is a whole and valid belief set in its own self. But the answer to your question may be: people who like to taunt others

A.) Agnostic is not "baby steps" away in most opinions.
B.) I'm a Taoist.
C.) Yes, I know the bible forwards, backwards, and inside out.



Attack dogs? On these JUB forums I haven't seen barely a post or two by the x-tian contingent defending their faith via well reasoned, thought out, logical debate, but rather "OMG, stop the hate!" posts.

If you can't defend your position, that doesn't mean you are being attacked, it means you simply can't or able to defend your position.

A. I disagree - it is not baby steps away in all opinions.
B. That is interesting as there has been no witness to that in anything you have ever posted.
C. I doubt that. What era do you date Third Isaiah? What are your thoughts on Cyrus as the anointed one in Second Isaiah?

Not as judgment - alas I condemn judgmentalism - could you rephrase your middle paragraph in a Taoist perspective? Your mock seems to be at great odds with taoist belief. As well, you demand of others something that taoism would never ask for nor give - western intellectualism ("well reasoned, thought out, logical debate") which taoism would take as just an impossibility because that is not how approaches tao - or any set of faith beliefs.

And then your last sentence/paragraph falls into the same pit, being quite contrary to taoist teaching, which understands that there are such things as attacks and there are many responses, and the only responses consistent with wu wei are without the same resorting to the empty meaninglessness of failed western intellectualism - in taoist thought as well as in post modern thinking.

I have never seen tao confused with western empiricalism as you have so conflated it in your post. I suppose it can be done, but I don't see how since as taoism teaches, the tao cannot be named so using western constructs violates the tao and taoism. The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Nothingness' is the beginning of heaven and earth. Oneness' is the mother of everything. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery. (You surely know the source of that quote and its applicability here...

Why you demand from others western ontologicalism rather than live in tao metaphysicalism is a mystery to me, and perhaps you can enlighten.

I would so hesitate to suggest yours is a barnes and nobl;e taoism just to be in opposition to the faith traditions from you were raised - I'd actually love to hear you discuss your teachers and which schools they follow, your meditative practices, etc.

 

[sabot3ur]

I am not a bigot.

this is redundant.

it is currently 1:35 in the am, and I do not have any illegal substances on my person to hold me off.

my main points to say in this post- you calling other christians "crazy" and them calling you the same is the same old pot kettle nonsense. neither are crazy according to your belief system. this reminds me of when I argued against real vs. fake christians in another past thread, but I'm not tryna follow any religion so what the fuck everrr for me. you say I already have my mind made up? you seem unwilling to consider that the anti-gay xtians are JUST as founded in their beliefs, in the bible, as you!

pedophiles are fucked up, dangerous people who I am/was not trying to defend in any way. I still don't really consider them gay or straight, more like monsters.
and forgive me if I got anything twisted during this routine long ass net discussion, it's unbelievably easy to do.

lastly, I don't like law. I don't like rules. I don't like concrete. I don't like circumcision...
I'd rather *!DREAM!*
so goodnight all!

 

[reverb285]

and by what right do you have to judge whether other people follow their faith traditions "authentically" or not?

Apparently, the same "right" as you, as you just verbosely examined the integrity of Evilforce's perspective. Who are YOU to say how a Taoist is supposed to think? See, it cuts that way too.

 

[The_Reaper]

Well; allow me a member of the rather radical left, to try and explain things.

As a fellow Canadian, I think I can add a few things here that may have been missed. I'll get to Conservatives, and in particular Mr. Harper, in a moment; but first let me do a quick overview on the Christians.

I think in the case of the Christians; it's very much returning what we receive from them as a community. There are radical examples, like 'preacher' Fred Phelps; and some not so bad examples of say United and Anglican churches that are more welcoming to homosexuality.

On the whole; I do believe that given time, the Churches will eventually open themselves up to the reality that we're not going away, and will at some point give up this little crusade they are on when it comes to same-sex marriage and the like. However; change in any faith is slow, so I doubt I'll see this in my life time.

The reason why; perhaps Christians in particular are singled out, is the aversion to same-sex marriage. (I'll touch more on this when I talk about the Conservatives.) But essentially, to some groups of people, to identify as Roman Catholic and be gay, is seen as a hypocrisy, as faith denies a right to part of who you are.

Then of course, there's the practice what you preach. "Judge not lest yea be judged" seems to have been abandoned, as it's condemn what you think is wrong because God probably hates it too...And don't get me started on Leviticus; keep in mind, that's the Old Testament, which is essentially Judaism, which last time I checked; wasn't Catholism.

Now, that's about all I've got to say on the Christian perspective.

As for the Conservatives; where do I begin?

There's more reasons than just Conservative stances on gay issues; although, for many that's a selling point. Just look at the track record Mr. Harper and his government has in office:

Ran for: More accountability and transparency in government

Canadians Got: An accountability act that doesn't work; a Montreal man appointed to the Senate and given TWO, as of today, plum Cabinet positions despite being unelected; the M. Bernier Affair; and a gagging of Conservative MPs so much to the point that none are allowed to speak without permission from the PMO.

There there's of course the slashing to the social programs: the women's offices that the PMO closed; the destruction of a low income legal defense fund, etc, etc, etc...

Conservatives in general; even without using their anti-gay stance; are bad in so many ways. And anyone familiar with political science, will know true conservatives don't exist anymore. In fact, the idea of a minimalist state is actually a Liberal, classical, idea. Conservatives are just neo-Liberals, in terms of economic and social policy.

Personally, I'm a fan of moving ahead into the future; not moving back into the past, which is why this ideology just doesn't work.

So, that's my attempt at an explaination as to WHY there's so much 'ill-will' towards Christians and Conservatives; simply because of the hypocrisy of both groups.

And on a side note; I'll front you that just because you belong to a group doesn't mean you agree with ALL of their policies. Just because I'm a borderline Marxist; doesn't mean I agree with all of Marx's conclusions, but I do think he got some facts right.

But yes, I do hope at least one person actually reads all this.

 

[reverb285]

Now you know good and damn well he can't answer that shit.

Where is your answer to it, wise-ass?

 

[Chalchalero]

I definitely agree that fundamentalist Christians have some serious issues when it comes to dealing with pretty much everything; if I wanted to point out most of the problems with any group, I would generally lay it at the feet of the most conservative members of that group, and when it comes to Christians, those are the fundamentalists. Any time that Christianity has run inquisitions and gone after scientists, you can usually bet that the fundamentalists have somehow taken the reigns of power.

However, as others have noted, in the long run, the fundamentalists aren't as powerful as you would make them out to be. Slavery, last time I checked, had been abolished, mostly thanks to various Christians (such as Harriet Beecher Stowe) and Christian groups (such as the Quakers helping the Underground Railroad). You even have various groups to thank for the rules of war throughout the ages, something that other groups simply don't have. Let's not ignore the concept of sanctuary, where someone in trouble could hide in a church (well, to a degree (there are plenty of examples where searchers of sanctuary were taken out of a church)). And that's ignoring the money that the Church itself has spent towards scientific
research throughout the ages, or the archiving of important works that the monks have done by copying important works.

For every Torquemada, you have a dozen St. Francis of Assisi's (and note which one has the sainthood).

Without the majority of Christians, it would be impossible for gay marriage to happen; if gay marriage was such an important thing for it to not happen, then it wouldn't and there would already be a constitutional amendment for it. However, last time I checked, there isn't. In fact, it seems that homosexuality has been given some tacit approval, at least in terms of recognizing that the gay community needs some. Also, a lot of people are recognizing that King James version has a lot of interesting translation issues; I think that one of the easiest ways to recognize a fundamentalist is the degree to which they go by that version, as opposed to the Living Bible version.

I guess what I'm saying is that you need to recognize that any group has those members that embarrass the group; consider NAMBLA, bug chasers, and barebackers before you say that the gay community has no one to be ashamed of...

RG

You raise such very interesting points, and I hope that others will read what you write, because it is important that everyone become aware of the contributions that religion has made to the world and not only the sins it has committed against it.

For every Torquemada, you have a dozen St. Francis of Assisi's (and note which one has the sainthood).

This is such an amazing line that I had to repeat it! Thank you for making this point.

consider NAMBLA, bug chasers, and barebackers before you say that the gay community has no one to be ashamed of...


On this one, I would be careful, though, because there are a great many gay people who, while judging others is not a problem for them, would take great umbrage at you judging their sex lives.

Just a thought...

 

[Chalchalero]

Say what you will, there is no single person, place, thing, or idea that has damaged the view of homosexuality more than religion. Period.

You want to know why I hate Christianity? Try and deny it and say it isn't true if you will, but I am firmly convinced that we, homosexuals, live our lives as second class citizens because of a little black book that condemns us (and it's equivalent in some other religions). Before Christianity came to many parts of the world, homosexuals weren't persecuted and it was widely accepted; mainly in the Americas and Europe.

NOBODY is going to tell me that I'm corrupt in the eyes of some made-up deity, and then they rule the world with an iron fist over the world governments, corrupting people's minds with fairy tales and hypocritical dogma. NOBODY is going to deny me my basic human rights and then tell me my actions are immoral and unclean, then try to save me.

This forum is full of hate? You start spouting Christian ideals and your damned bigoted opinions and bible thumping and expect people that are persecuted, executed, and denied their rights because of your beliefs to just roll over and play nice? Bullshit.

I literally have tears of frustration running down my face right now because of your stupid religious beliefs and the constant pushing of it into our faces. It's my damn right to hate and be angry at people and ideas that tell me I'm less of a human being because of who I choose to show my love to. Fuck your bigoted religion.

I don't care if I'm banned for saying that, and to hell with it; it needed to be said.

Excuse me I have to go calm myself down.

I do believe that would be best, because that rant was not only highly inexcusable, but painted a very ugly bigoted and hateful picture of you.

I am sorry that you are unhappy with religion and religious adherents. But do not blame us for your unhappiness. The fact of the matter is that your "basic rights" are not denied you. You have, according to the Constitution the right to life (which you obviously have), liberty (which is the only thing that would permit such a hateful diatribe to have been written) and the pursuit of happiness (which none of us is stopping you from and which would be a far more positive use of your time than writing hateful posts such as this one.)

I'm just saying...

 

[Chalchalero]

This forum is full of hate. All groups need a bogeyman to be against.

The Gay population's bogeyman is Christianity.

I joined this forum to learn more about the Gay Culture and Gay Issues and hopefully, make coming out a easier time for myself.

But what I found was I was wrong about a few things.

Gay people aren't always the innocent victims as portrayed on the news and Gay people can be just as hateful as any straight person.

What a kick in the teeth, eh? Gay people are human just like everyone else. They also have their hateful ignorant pompous bigots and idiots just like every other group.

I would recommend that you not judge all gay people by the radical freaks on the threads I have seen you participate in, but rather on your personal experience with people you actually meet and have met. That is the only real way to know what gay people are like.

The hateful people you have encountered (thankfully) are the minority and the extreme. Pay no attention to them.

 

[Chalchalero]

Maybe it's time the "poor persecuted x-tians" on this board petition JUB for a new forum, a "No X-tian Bashing, Non X-tian critical, All Things X-tian".

That way no one can say anything bad, critical, true, false, or indifferent about x-tianity.

Those of us with a more realistic view of it, can just avoid it then, instead of it spread across 14 forums.

Just a thought.

Maybe it is time for you to simply participate in threads that are more amenable to your intellect, instead of spreading your bigoted hatred everywhere throughout this particular thread. I don't know, maybe the Fun and Games threads, for instance.

 

[Chalchalero]

Well; allow me a member of the rather radical left, to try and explain things.

As a fellow Canadian, I think I can add a few things here that may have been missed. I'll get to Conservatives, and in particular Mr. Harper, in a moment; but first let me do a quick overview on the Christians.

I think in the case of the Christians; it's very much returning what we receive from them as a community. There are radical examples, like 'preacher' Fred Phelps; and some not so bad examples of say United and Anglican churches that are more welcoming to homosexuality.

On the whole; I do believe that given time, the Churches will eventually open themselves up to the reality that we're not going away, and will at some point give up this little crusade they are on when it comes to same-sex marriage and the like. However; change in any faith is slow, so I doubt I'll see this in my life time.

The reason why; perhaps Christians in particular are singled out, is the aversion to same-sex marriage. (I'll touch more on this when I talk about the Conservatives.) But essentially, to some groups of people, to identify as Roman Catholic and be gay, is seen as a hypocrisy, as faith denies a right to part of who you are.

Then of course, there's the practice what you preach. "Judge not lest yea be judged" seems to have been abandoned, as it's condemn what you think is wrong because God probably hates it too...And don't get me started on Leviticus; keep in mind, that's the Old Testament, which is essentially Judaism, which last time I checked; wasn't Catholism.

Now, that's about all I've got to say on the Christian perspective.

As for the Conservatives; where do I begin?

There's more reasons than just Conservative stances on gay issues; although, for many that's a selling point. Just look at the track record Mr. Harper and his government has in office:

Ran for: More accountability and transparency in government

Canadians Got: An accountability act that doesn't work; a Montreal man appointed to the Senate and given TWO, as of today, plum Cabinet positions despite being unelected; the M. Bernier Affair; and a gagging of Conservative MPs so much to the point that none are allowed to speak without permission from the PMO.

There there's of course the slashing to the social programs: the women's offices that the PMO closed; the destruction of a low income legal defense fund, etc, etc, etc...

Conservatives in general; even without using their anti-gay stance; are bad in so many ways. And anyone familiar with political science, will know true conservatives don't exist anymore. In fact, the idea of a minimalist state is actually a Liberal, classical, idea. Conservatives are just neo-Liberals, in terms of economic and social policy.

Personally, I'm a fan of moving ahead into the future; not moving back into the past, which is why this ideology just doesn't work.

So, that's my attempt at an explaination as to WHY there's so much 'ill-will' towards Christians and Conservatives; simply because of the hypocrisy of both groups.

And on a side note; I'll front you that just because you belong to a group doesn't mean you agree with ALL of their policies. Just because I'm a borderline Marxist; doesn't mean I agree with all of Marx's conclusions, but I do think he got some facts right.

But yes, I do hope at least one person actually reads all this.

I read it. And while I disagree with your characterisation of Catholicism (being a Catholic myself, I do NOT consider myself to be a hypocrite, thank you very much), and I do not live in Canada so cannot comment on those observations you made, I am pleased that you were able to contribute a reasoned and logical addition to the discussion for which I thank you very much!

I agree that the Church asks a great deal of homosexual observants when it requires chastity of us, but only those of us who truly believe and are truly convinced that this is God's will are going to follow that mandate anyway. The rest of the gay Catholics will simply ignore it and do as they please, so there is no way that we as a Church are preventing anyone from doing anything.

I wish someone could show me where they were not able to do as they pleased because of Christians. I have asked this before and no one has yet responded. I would love to see what the response would be.

 

[EvilForce]

Maybe it is time for you to simply participate in threads that are more amenable to your intellect, instead of spreading your bigoted hatred everywhere throughout this particular thread. I don't know, maybe the Fun and Games threads, for instance.

Is "bigoted" and "hatred" the biggest words you can use? Cause you sure like to use them a lot, and when called to task for their use, run away or cry "hate, hate, hate".

Expecting, and demanding that a group, people, organization, corporation, religion, or club stand up and take responsibility for their current and past actions isn't hate.

Disagreement is not hate.

 

[Chalchalero]

The answer will be like someone saying they're afraid to sleep with the light off because of the boogey man. They'll have some indirect truthinesses to back it up, but anyone with half a brain will see that the dots don't connect, but they'll feel better for having posted it.

Haha! Truthiness...

It's funny 'cause it's true...