This greasy piece of shit is going to tell me that being gay is wrong?

[yummylongsword]

I'll show you mine, when they show me theirs... What justification do they have for hating us? What do they hope to accomplish with their hate?

Blame game is old.

What do they hope to accomplish? They want to convince as many people as possible that gays are terrible people. Using hate is actually pretty effective for this goal, and that's why they've been succeeding for so long.

Yeah, of course they're wrong. Of course they need to cut down on the hate, too. But at least their hate is straightforward and goal oriented. They say they hate gay people, and they back it up with their actions.

Gay people SAY they're all inclusive and they just want equality and happiness, but then they discriminate and spew hatred too. If we really want to make change, perhaps we should live it instead of whining about how life is unfair and expecting others to make life easier for us with no effort on our part. I'd rather spread kindness and end up happy than refuse to be kind and end up unhappy because I've perpetuated the stereotypes that make people hate us.

 

[fetaby]

What do they hope to accomplish? They want to convince as many people as possible that gays are terrible people. Using hate is actually pretty effective for this goal, and that's why they've been succeeding for so long.

Yeah, of course they're wrong. Of course they need to cut down on the hate, too. But at least their hate is straightforward and goal oriented. They say they hate gay people, and they back it up with their actions.

Gay people SAY they're all inclusive and they just want equality and happiness, but then they discriminate and spew hatred too. If we really want to make change, perhaps we should live it instead of whining about how life is unfair and expecting others to make life easier for us with no effort on our part. I'd rather spread kindness and end up happy than refuse to be kind and end up unhappy because I've perpetuated the stereotypes that make people hate us.

So where is the justification for hating us?

When really anything you write will be moot, as there is no justification for hate. It matters not where it comes or who harbors it.

Meanwhile this circle of hate bullshit has red herring the situation. Blame game and ducking and dodging.

Anonymous boners espousing the virtue of forgiveness to the victims of hatred. It's laughable.

The only thing that can be agreed upon is a need for change. The disagreement begins with who is at fault. I suggest watching the vids, again...

EDIT:

The disagreement begins with who is at fault and what is to be faulted. That they believe being gay is a sin is the fault. It is not a sin. It is not wrong. Any movement from that belief is wrong.

 

[gsdx]

But... what about marriage and equal rights? I'm pretty sure it won't bring you that.

Ah, but it is the religious wingnuts who have devoted their time and money and lives to preventing American homosexuals equal rights and marriage. Such is the strength and power of their hatred toward us.

 

[yummylongsword]

So where is the justification for hating us?

When really anything you write will be moot, as there is no justification for hate. It matters not where it comes or who harbors it.

Meanwhile this circle of hate bullshit has red herring the situation. Blame game and ducking and dodging.

Anonymous boners espousing the virtue of forgiveness to the victims of hatred. It's laughable.

The only thing that can be agreed upon is a need for change. The disagreement begins with who is at fault. I suggest watching the vids, again...

I don't quite understand. So are you agreeing with me, that there's no justification for hate? What is your point then?

 

[borg69unimatrix]

In my opinion, I think the fundamental difference is that I would live, and let live, where they would not. I'm able to let them live their lives, without hate, or condemnation.

They are not. They want to change me to their way of thinking, or in extreme cases, wipe me off the planet cause I don't fit into their scheme of what they think is 'right'.

My 'hate' is more of a self preservation mechanism that keeps me on guard against them, because you never know when they're going to attempt something.

And just stopping hating can't work, because there ARE groups out there (like terrorists/extremists) who will NOT stop their agenda, simply because we're all of a sudden 'nice' to them.

Most religions are SO two-faced between what they preach ( Love thy neighbor, Love thy fellow man, Don't cast stones, Do unto others...) and how they actually ACT.

 

[fetaby]

I don't quite understand. So are you agreeing with me, that there's no justification for hate? What is your point then?

That you need to readjust your aim.

You want to end the circle of hate, simba? You need to find it's cause.

If a chain of hate can literally be traced from Aggressor A (christians) to Aggressor B (gays), chasing the tail end of it and begging for a higher road to be taken is not only futile but insulting.

 

[yummylongsword]

In my opinion, I think the fundamental difference is that I would live, and let live, where they would not. I'm able to let them live their lives, without hate, or condemnation.

They are not. They want to change me to their way of thinking, or in extreme cases, wipe me off the planet cause I don't fit into their scheme of what they think is 'right'.

My 'hate' is more of a self preservation mechanism that keeps me on guard against them, because you never know when they're going to attempt something.

And just stopping hating can't work, because there ARE groups out there (like terrorists/extremists) who will NOT stop their agenda, simply because we're all of a sudden 'nice' to them.

Most religions are SO two-faced between what they preach ( Love thy neighbor, Love thy fellow man, Don't cast stones, Do unto others...) and how they actually ACT.

That's true. I think you're totally justified in being defensive, it's necessary. But really, there's a difference between being cautious and wary of religious people and straight out hating them. I know gay people that refuse to talk to anyone who's religious, no matter how nice or accepting they may be.

And you're right. There are plenty of people out there who will never change, no matter what we do, and too many religions preach one thing and act another. That's why we should take it upon ourselves not to lower ourselves to that standard, yeah?

That you need to readjust your aim.

You want to end the circle of hate, simba? You need to find it's cause.

If a chain of hate can literally be traced from Aggressor A (christians) to Aggressor B (gays), chasing the tail end of it and begging for a higher road to be taken is not only futile but insulting.

Ohh, I see. You miss my whole point. At no point did I justify the actions of religious haters, nor did I say that it's our responsibility alone to end the "cycle". However, I was arguing that just because we didn't start this war, we are NOT justified in continuing it with more hatred. People that feel justified in their anger and prejudice just because they're a victim are just as bad, in my opinion, as those who were angry and hateful in the first place.

 

[fetaby]

That's why we should take it upon ourselves not to lower ourselves to that standard, yeah?

I hereby solemnly swear to never donate a large sum of money towards a political campaign to deny the civil rights of a group of people...

 

[Blk_Thickness]

Stuff like this I just ignore. Those people jsut want attention!

 

[Telstra]

Stuff like this I just ignore. Those people jsut want attention!

but they brain washing and abusing children. Police should get involved.

 

[gsdx]

but they brain washing and abusing children. Police should get involved.

They can't. It's their right as a religion to do whatever the hell they want.

 

[fetaby]

People that feel justified in their anger and prejudice just because they're a victim are just as bad, in my opinion, as those who were angry and hateful in the first place.

Tell that to a rape victim.

Really though, the whole idea that hate is bad is bullshit. It serves it's purpose.

 

[borg69unimatrix]

Maybe if we went door to door, recruiting like they do, they'd get a better understanding of what they put us through.

 

[yummylongsword]

So, now you have come to the conclusion that religious people are predominantly not homophobic? Do you realize how many people are "in the closet" about being homophobic? Not everyone who is is openly so. People have told me that they love me to my face while talking about me behind my back. Many people(including Christians) are capable of being kind to one's face and stabbing them in the back. Aren't you familiar with Jim Bakker's scandal involving PTL?

I don't see why anyone would bother being "in the closet" about being homophobic when it's perfectly socially acceptable to be so. Obviously, no matter what evidence I bring you're just going to disagree with me (I mean, it basically doesn't get any more conclusive than this). You're just aching to let everyone know that Christians are evil, and they all hate you, and they're the scum of the Earth, despite plenty of evidence that says otherwise.

Ask your boyfriend.

Perhaps, if you had, you would have learned something from such an experience instead of underestimating how much homophobia exists in the church.

The missing piece of the puzzle...

I think one already has.

That is all I'm doing? Excuse me?

Justifying my hatred? You are making assumptions again but this discussion is over. Good day.

You seem so personally offended by what I'm saying about religious people. I think we need to take a step back and examine what's going on here:

I'm asking people to attempt to find a different viewpoint, consider the fact that people are not simply "Christian" or "not Christian", and see that perhaps a moderate and friendly approach to the other side might be a good thing.

You're telling me that 76% of the American population (http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf) is inherently homophobic and should therefore be despised and hated. So 3 out of every 4 people you meet hates your guts.

I have a seriously hard time believing that, and if you truly DO believe this, I'm not sure how you get through your daily life thinking that everyone you meet hates you.

 

[todwod]

I couldn't watch the whole video. I had to go back a page out of disgust and laughter =/

 

[curiousguyUNT]

I don't see why anyone would bother being "in the closet" about being homophobic when it's perfectly socially acceptable to be so. Obviously, no matter what evidence I bring you're just going to disagree with me (I mean, it basically doesn't get any more conclusive than this). You're just aching to let everyone know that Christians are evil, and they all hate you, and they're the scum of the Earth, despite plenty of evidence that says otherwise.



When all someone experiences is hate and intolerance from a group of people, they tend to think/believe that all of those in that group think/act the same. You do the same thing but in reverse, you have never experienced homophobia or hate so you do not think it is as bad or widespread as everyone else says. Most of the people here are not basing their opinions on polls, or facts, or even the knowledge that not all Christians are the same, but on their daily experiences.

For example, I owned two rottweilers who were nothing but big babies their entire lives. Anyone who would come over were immediately afraid of them because they have a reputation of being out of control and vicious. I told them there was nothing to worry about and showed them how gentle they were, but some people refused to be near them. They told me that they might seem nice but would probably turn on me at any minute. This is how both sides of this debate are: some will overcome their initial views and see reason, some will always wait for the other turn on them, and some have "been bitten," so to speak, and will always see the other as a threat.



You seem so personally offended by what I'm saying about religious people. I think we need to take a step back and examine what's going on here:

I'm asking people to attempt to find a different viewpoint, consider the fact that people are not simply "Christian" or "not Christian", and see that perhaps a moderate and friendly approach to the other side might be a good thing.

You're telling me that 76% of the American population (http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf) is inherently homophobic and should therefore be despised and hated. So 3 out of every 4 people you meet hates your guts.

I have a seriously hard time believing that, and if you truly DO believe this, I'm not sure how you get through your daily life thinking that everyone you meet hates you.

Again, these are facts, not experiences. Experiences will always trump facts, no matter how accurate they might be. Why do you not call on Christians to act on their faith and show tolerance and acceptance for everyone? Why should people who have done nothing wrong be expected to bend over backwards for people who are not even following their own beliefs? Did you know that there have been studies done that show that when people who are entrenched in their beliefs, whether religious or political, are presented with proof that they are wrong, they only hold to their beliefs stronger?

 

[yummylongsword]

Again, these are facts, not experiences. Experiences will always trump facts, no matter how accurate they might be.

That is the silliest thing I've ever heard. No, experiences will not trump facts. Do you hear yourself talking? Besides, I've had plenty of experiences, and they weren't negative.

Why do you not call on Christians to act on their faith and show tolerance and acceptance for everyone? Why should people who have done nothing wrong be expected to bend over backwards for people who are not even following their own beliefs? Did you know that there have been studies done that show that when people who are entrenched in their beliefs, whether religious or political, are presented with proof that they are wrong, they only hold to their beliefs stronger?

Yes, people obviously will hold onto their beliefs even when they're presented with evidence otherwise. You know, like how I just presented people with evidence and they brushed it aside.

I understand the whole "both sides of an argument" thing. But I'm definitely not on either side: I don't hate all religious people, but I don't blindly put my faith in them either. I'm just trying to calm down the extremists that fuel this stupid hate war, both gay and religious (not that they're mutually exclusive).

 

[curiousguyUNT]

That is the silliest thing I've ever heard. No, experiences will not trump facts. Do you hear yourself talking? Besides, I've had plenty of experiences, and they weren't negative.

Yes, people obviously will hold onto their beliefs even when they're presented with evidence otherwise. You know, like how I just presented people with evidence and they brushed it aside.


Why is it silly? If someone is constantly discriminated against, or hated, or constantly surrounded by negative, bad things it doesn't matter that a poll or study or research shows that the opposite is true. They will believe what they experience. Just like you. You have no bad experiences so you can't imagine anyone else having them either. You have brushed aside their knowledge and experience (their personal evidence) just because it wasn't written down by experts.


I understand the whole "both sides of an argument" thing. But I'm definitely not on either side: I don't hate all religious people, but I don't blindly put my faith in them either. I'm just trying to calm down the extremists that fuel this stupid hate war, both gay and religious (not that they're mutually exclusive).

You say that, but you have greatly defended the religious, and mostly condemned anyone who speaks against them. I always try to see both sides (I'm not perfect at it but I do try) but I have many times when I calmly, rationally, and factually presented my side of things with Christians (at least those who tell you every five minutes that they're Christians, like it excuses something) and it's not only on the topic of homosexuality either. I don't hate Christians by the way, I just strongly dislike anyone who displays obvious hypocrisy. One of my best friends, who I actually think of as a brother, is one of the most caring, tolerant, understanding, and accepting persons I know and is a Christian. I wish more of them were like him, because we would never have a problem with them again.

 

[malarcus909]

O' come now...


These children that they "heal" will eventually break from the spell and be infested with psychopathic thoughts and land themselves in prison after a series of rather gruesome homicides.

All kidding aside, I really do hate that what I believe means that I'll never get the satisfaction of these nuts dying after all of this and finding out it was all for naught. I can't help but wonder what exactly their parents were thinking when they chose to put them through this...because you know it wasn't the kids that wanted to do it in the first place.


There's really nothing I can say about this that would truly be constructive. I just...want to strangle something now. There's a dog sleeping behind me! No! No, hands...NO!!!

 

[yummylongsword]

You say that, but you have greatly defended the religious, and mostly condemned anyone who speaks against them.

Well no one else is defending them, are they? The overwhelming attitude of "religion is evil!" that is present here at JUB makes a moderate like me seem radical. Honestly, I just am arguing against that radical stance that "all people involved in any way with religion are evil and deserve my hatred," which has actually been said many times throughout this thread. It baffles my mind that people who are discriminated against can feel this way, really.

I always try to see both sides (I'm not perfect at it but I do try) but I have many times when I calmly, rationally, and factually presented my side of things with Christians (at least those who tell you every five minutes that they're Christians, like it excuses something) and it's not only on the topic of homosexuality either. I don't hate Christians by the way, I just strongly dislike anyone who displays obvious hypocrisy. One of my best friends, who I actually think of as a brother, is one of the most caring, tolerant, understanding, and accepting persons I know and is a Christian. I wish more of them were like him, because we would never have a problem with them again.

Good. That is EXACTLY how I think you should feel about religion. You'll probably notice that you only experienced that kind of idiocy from those that are reeeeally entrenched in their religion. I'm sure there are many people that you didn't even know were Christians, but were more the brand that your friend is.