This man should die!

[JackFTwist]

You'd be having Germans in the generation after WW II "in no position" to condemn Nazi Germany, Americans once the 'Indian' wars were over "in no position' to criticize those... etc. etc.

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Anyone with a conscience not only is in a position to speak up, but has a duty to do so.

Come on, Kuli, that's a ridiculous, foolish argument. That my friend is a bullshit twisting of what I am saying.

You have two totally different situations there anyway.

The German resistance was in a place to condemn amongst their own.

The Americans who waited (and why did they wait?) until "once the 'Indian' wars were over" sure did a good job of cultural destruction and maltreatment of human beings for the next century plus.

Those with a conscience will feel. But the answers must come from those impacted, not from the very source of the exploitation - and in southern Africa the west is that source. Do not suggest a new round of colonialism by sitting at a distance dictating what victims of the west should do next as they still reel from prior colonialism.

 

[JackFTwist]

Excellent insight!

Moral cowardice is not a justification for refusing to act with moral courage, nor are moral failings. And to wallow in moral failings as an excuse not to act is moral cowardice.

oh if life were as easy as the cliches!

if reality was only impacted by our best platitudes!

Stalin continued evil only over a far wider geographical area, so all that was done there was to swap the evil doer and extended the reach of evil. If that's what you support, then say so.

To the people of eastern Europe, your acceptance of Stalin for Hitler is obscene in every way.

And that's what you get when you choose evil to fight evil.

Which is why our faith suggests a very different mind set, a statement germane to some of us, Kuli my friend.

 

[Kulindahr]

oh if life were as easy as the cliches!

if reality was only impacted by our best platitudes!

Stalin continued evil only over a far wider geographical area, so all that was done there was to swap the evil doer and extended the reach of evil. If that's what you support, then say so.

To the people of eastern Europe, your acceptance of Stalin for Hitler is obscene in every way.

And that's what you get when you choose evil to fight evil.

Which is why our faith suggests a very different mind set, a statement germane to some of us, Kuli my friend.

You're telling us to sit silently.
I'm sure Jesus would appreciate that.

As for Stalin, he spread evil over a greater area because of moral cowardice on our part. Patton was ready to go straight to Moscow, and should have. Instead we sat and did nothing and let the monster swallow its neighbors.

You seem to be arguing that if we just let evil alone, things will get better. Our faith says nothing about sitting on our asses while evil is being done.

 

[Kulindahr]

Moral cowardice is almost an insulting term to people with morals. It's a pretty ideal concept when you're typing about it at your computer, arguably less applicable when a large force that's caused the murder of thousands is at your throat with a machete and you've got two kids in the living room who need feeding and a wife who needs your support.

Boy, was that ripped out of context!

I don't think Jack has any kids sitting in a living room worrying about having food, nor is he facing anyone threatening him with a machete. I'm certainly not facing those things, and I doubt anyone on JUB is.

To sit over here and plead that we should do nothing, just remain silent in the face of injustice, is moral cowardice. That charge was aimed at people sitting here at their computers and wailing that because of the sins of our fathers, so to speak, we should commit more sins.

 

[Dobson73]

Also, the people of Zimbabwe want a democratic country whereas Iraq is having democracy imposed upon it.

Q'est?

Are you saying Iraqi's DON"T want a democracy but they're having one imposed? These two points seem to be quite exclusive.

Every nation deserves democracy and every person deserves their say in who governs them.

 

[JackFTwist]

To sit over here and plead that we should do nothing, just remain silent in the face of injustice, is ...

let me finish that sentence: "... is not what Jack and others have done."


I am unaware of any response given by the "we porn board posters are tough on Mugabe and love western imperialism" other than posting. That's a real problem solver.

No one has said 'do nothing because of the sins of the fathers.' Those are your sexist words, not mine. I have spoken of what one culture has done to another. I never reduce things to simplistic sexist phrases and never advocate what you have created as the straw dog to attack.

In fact the cultural imperialism is (as has been my constant methodological presupposition) of the present, not only the past. So your reductionism fails at all points.

Any child with a knife at its throat is my child, and and hungry person is my kin. The solutions will come from a different source than western imperialists who created the cesspool damning the consequences of their creation.

And in fact, when you are in the place where you when you condemn others for their moral failings, it would be a good idea to look around and locate the actual response that you have suggested that will involve you doing more than posting here.

 

[Spazer181]

And I just now look at the BBC news website to find the top story is Mugabe's sixth innaguration - while I'm not surprised, I am saddened that they bothered with the charade of this sham of an election.
I guess at this point it is just wait and see what happens between Mugabe and the MDC Parliament.
I am pleased, however, to see Archbishop Tutu ask for international involvement (going so far as to suggest force if need be) to insure peace in the country. I think most of us can agree that the Archbishop is an African leader who has the people's best interests at heart.

 

[falconfan]

Who cares what happens there.

I care about people wherever they live. I'm not going to be happy letting a holocaust happen anywhere in the world.

 

[AsianDream]

You're telling us to sit silently.
I'm sure Jesus would appreciate that.

As for Stalin, he spread evil over a greater area because of moral cowardice on our part. Patton was ready to go straight to Moscow, and should have. Instead we sat and did nothing and let the monster swallow its neighbors.

You seem to be arguing that if we just let evil alone, things will get better. Our faith says nothing about sitting on our asses while evil is being done.

Patton would never have got to Moscow - the Russian view of history was (and still is) that they defeated Hitler with the US and British efforts being merely a sideshow.

As the majority of German casualties and resources used were on the eastern front there is probably a lot of truth in this idea.

The Yalta outcome of WWII is neither due to the Ill health of Roosevelt or senility of Churchill - but probably accurately reflected the balance of military force at the time.

Actually Christianity says a lot about sitting on your asses while evil is being done. How else can "turning the other cheek" be interpreted?

Zimbabwe is just another example of how "self determination" can go disasterously wrong - and allow evil people to gain control of a country.

This is not to say that this is endemic to Black Africa or justifies any ideas of racial or cultural superiority. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Mussollini, Franko etc tell us that evil can flourish in almost any society if given the chance.

 

[falconfan]

It is up the Africans to solve their own problems. I believe they are capable of solving it.

South Africa is a regional power, it has the ability to solve the crisis by itself.

Like the Europeans should've taken care of their own problem in hte 40s?

South Africa is a regional power, it has the ability to solve the crisis by itself.

It chose not to.

But you think America should.

More Iraqis were kill under Saddam than were killed under Mugabe. Yet, you think that war was a mistake.

Let Africa take care of its own problems.

OK where do I even begin....

A. The Iraq war was arbitrarily picked war that was little more than a fairly blatant political move that was bound to take thousands of life for the sake of one mans political career and/or the economic stimulus for a small group of millionaires. It was impossible to say we should go in because the information was unreliable at best and in all likely hood cherry picked.

B. Furthermore calling for intervention is not the same as calling for punishment. All I kept hearing time and time again was what Saddam DID in the 90s and late 80s not what he was currently doing that required international intervention to stop. By which I don't mean that this man was by any stretch of the mind a good leader or a good man. But one thing that kept popping up was the gassing of the Kurds. Now to intervene someone to STOP using biological weapons is far different than removing someone because in the late 80s they may or may not have done so.

C. Calling for intervention is a long shot off of calling for war or even military force. Nowhere on this forum will you find I advocated either of those things. In actuality I feel that I don't know enough about this situation to full make an informed statement about the specifics of what should or should not happen. If you look most of my replies have dealt with broad over arching principles such as that a good perpetuated by a wrong person is still a good or that people are people regardless of where they live.

D. Where on Earth did you get teh statistic that Mugabe has killed less than Saddam. I'd like to see the source please.

E. May I just say that I constantly see you bitching about taxes on this forum but when there's a thread about people being slaughtered your response is why should I care. The fact you care more about the tax rate in the highest brackets than the lives of men, women, and children around the world is shame to say the least.

 

[falconfan]

Let Africa deal with it. There is a regional superpower right next door. They could easily topple Mugabe.

Why is it always the United States??

You know that's so true. I often ask myself why it is Superman always has to stop the villians of metropolis. I mean really Batman or someone COULD do it. He should just sit there on principle one day and let crime run rampid.

 

[JackFTwist]

You're telling us to sit silently.
1. I'm sure Jesus would appreciate that.

2. As for Stalin, he spread evil over a greater area because of moral cowardice on our part. Patton was ready to go straight to Moscow, and should have. Instead we sat and did nothing and let the monster swallow its neighbors.

3. You seem to be arguing that if we just let evil alone, things will get better. Our faith says nothing about sitting on our asses while evil is being done.

I missed this

1. Your ability to twist what has been said is remarkable.

2. Other than Patton wanting to do any fool thing, your grasp of history is very weak.

3. Your ability to twist what has been said is remarkable.

4. Your ability to twist what has been said is remarkable. But Jesus did say a great deal about non violence. God's triumph is not rooted in human acts of violence.

Again - other than angry postings on a pron message board, what solutions have you offered; and, what solution has you offered that involve you do doing anything?

 

[falconfan]

Yes. I would gladly join the army if I felt it would make a difference. In the state of our government, there's no way in hell I would. I trust neither the judgement nor the intentions of the modern American military

And attacking me personally instead of my arguments really is a poor way of addressing my arguments because it doesn't.

 

[opinterph]

Yes. I would gladly join the army if I felt it would make a difference. In the state of our government, there's no way in hell I would. I trust neither the judgement nor the intentions of the modern American military

And attacking me personally instead of my arguments really is a poor way of addressing my arguments because it doesn't.

NOTE: The post immediately preceding this quoted statement has been removed from this thread.

EDIT: An earlier post has now also been removed. Please use the Post Report feature to alert the moderators to possible problem posts. Do not assume that someone else’s indiscretion permits you to add more of the same.​

 

[falconfan]

Same exact things have happened in Cuba, Burma, North Korea, China, Iran, Syria, etc.

I dont get why anybody thinks Zimbabwe is the worse. It is not.

So some dictator ruins his economy and tortures his people. Big deal, happens all the time in numerous countries.

Should we invade Cuba, Burma, North Korea, China, Iran and Syria. I say no except Cuba.

Why? Because Cuba is in our backyard.

That's the least logical thing I've ever heard. Cuba is in a period of transition and from the looks of it it seems to be a positive transition. Not to mention the Bay of Pigs debacle

That being said why is everything an invasion? There's a number of things between indifference and full blown invasion.

 

[Giovanni]

Leave Zimbabwe alone.

Who cares what happens there. I certainly dont.

Let them kill themselves. Doesnt matter one iota to me.

I would not support any invasion or sanctions.

Zimbabew is not threatening us like Iraq was.

Leave Zimbabwe alone.

If the world was as selfish as you, then the whole world would go to hell in a handbasket.

If we can save lives, then why not save them. Only a selfish man says " It's not my problem"

 

[falconfan]

That's the least logical thing I've ever heard.

Zimbabwe is in a period of transition and from the looks of it it seems it cant get any worse. Mugabe is 84 years old. Within the next six years, odds are he will be dead.

And you want to invade.

That's the least logical thing I've ever heard.

Oh my god man you don't read a thing people write do you??? You quoted my sentence that said I never called for in an invasion and then went on to saying I lacked logic for wanting an invasion.

I've made my position very clear. I don't know enough about Zimbabwe to call for military force but it seems very clear that this man had continues to terrorize these people much in the way he has been for years. The nation is not in a period of transition. Mugabe was just 'elected' for a sixth time and has shown no sign that he's going to be any less brutal. That is not at all comparable to the situation in Cuba which is under a new leader who seems to be gradually lowering the unfair restrictions put upon the Cuban people.

 

[falconfan]

Mugabe is 84 years old. He is dying. Zimbabwe will have a new leader within 6 years.

You don't know that. You keep stating it like it's a fact. You can't say for sure when this man will die.

 

[falconfan]

At age 85, life expectancy is 5.4 years.

That is under the six years term.

Dude I don't care. If you tell me people are suffering my response isn't gonna be ah they're only going to suffer for six years. Six years is not small span of time. A person can do a hell of a lot of damage in six years.

 

[Spazer181]

Yes, but then what? His choosen successor? Carrying on the disastarous policies imposed by ZANU-PF?

While I agree with you that South Africa (along with the SADC and the AU) has (have) an important role in solving the crisis, this does not preclude the West (the US/ Canada/ England/ France/ ...) and the rest of the world (Russia/ China/ ...) from trying to place pressure on the regime. Since when is it a bad idea to place political pressure on a regime bent on destroying its own people and country?