TIPPING on VACATION

[Hellax24]

I'm pretty sure you did like 4 posts before this one. You were hella butthurt over the concept of tipping someone 15%. You were taught 20% was the standard and then it just applies to everyone else in the world. I used to work in a tipping industry and the only worse than a bad tipper are servers who bitch about tips. These people don't have to leave you any money, whether it's socially acceptable or not there are no true rules. This fact alone should make people gracious when they get anything at all. Sure it sucks to work your ass off and not get tipped like you would expect but there really IS a 'get over it.'

I used to work in coffee where the standard isn't even a percentage, it's a dollar. One dollar. You could order a 30 dollar order with five drinks, a toasted bagel with the cream cheese spread on it because they are too lazy AND a custom made sandwich, people will still just tip you a dollar. It's still a free dollar for doing my job. I know that serving is hard work, very fast-paced, stressful, adaptive... Nonetheless I have done harder work in industries that don't tip me. Tips are nice but you can't let them spoil you or ruin your day.

Just because people SHOULD do things doesn't mean they will, quit getting your panties in a twist over it. There's a lot of things people SHOULD do - have you ever driven a car? Do people EVER do what they're supposed to do, like pay attention to other people on the road?

In my opinion, it's really easy to read a customer from the very first interaction and see if they are worth that extra mile you want to go to get a nice tip. If you don't, then learn from the experience. Getting upset over it doesn't help anyone. Some overzealous jaded server bitching about how you should give them more free money is not exactly a convincing reason. Each one of your posts I read made me want to tip servers less and less.

IN OTHER NEWS

My serving pet peeve is a server who won't ever refill my water glass.

I agree that an on point server deserves more than 15% tip, anybody who has served people understands that. Your approach is all wrong, though. You are far too expectant. Expecting people to go above and beyond just leads to disappointment. I really do understand getting frustrated over it but that's when I realize you have the wrong attitude about the whole thing.

Hey Thanks for the post. I appreciate you taking the time to tell me about your take on my posts it makes me feel special. I understand you chose to work at a coffee shop and the way you describe it it seems it was a franchise. A Starbucks like company pays more then minimum wage and offers benefits so getting a free dollar is not much to you. However, when going out to a restaurant people know that tipping is part of the experience. Period. How people tip is the main point of my posts. Starting at 15% to me and many others is just ridiculous.

There are many customer service jobs out there, not many that include providing a tip to the person providing you service, going to a restaurant is one the few that does include tipping. I have worked in retail and would not work in that area of customer service again. Have i been offered tips for walking packages to a customer's car? Yes. Did i take it ? No. Because when i took the job i knew what it included so i did not expect it. When i took a job as a server i knew that it included getting tips. That's one of the reasons i took the job(s). I knew that because i was taken to restaurants as a kid and went with friends when i got older. I was taught to tip(well) so it is a matter of manners.

I am no longer a server i am an LMBT where is some places it is customary to tip such as in a spa setting. Sure, it's my job to do the best job i can so that people will come back and give the client the best possible Massage with the most benefits of getting a Massage. It that way it is like serving. I have been given passes and offered tips while in school but i could not accept tips as i was not licensed. I chose to work in the medical field which i would not expect a tip because i am being well compensated for my time.

As i mentioned in earlier posts 20% is the standard(since i was a server mine is 30%, it goes either way depending on the service). There is a lot more that goes into serving to give you the best possible experience. That should be taken into account when tipping. It's not just about taking a food order and bringing it to your table. If a server is good they ask questions about your likes, takes their time in explaining the menu and dishes that are offered. You have to know the menu backwards and forward and then learn new dishes when they are added. A lot of people think it's easy to work as a server, trust me it's not. I have seen a hostess who thought they knew it all breakdown at work because she couldn't handle it.

Most all knowing self righteous 15% tippers think that they shouldn't have to tip because they are owed great service for dining at a restaurant yet pay a reasonable price for a meal. Just because you don't make a fuss doesn't mean you should tip less. If you cannot afford to tip, don't think you should tip or don't want to be taken care of stick to Wendy's, McDonald's, etc, etc, etc. The thing about cheap diners is that there are a hell of a lot more people that know what is customary about dining out and show there appreciation for a job well done. They go out want a good time and when they do they show their gratitude. Cheap people never do because then believe that they deserve for people to kiss their ass and make them feel better about the world that shits on them for all the hard work they do and are never shown any gratitude.

POINT: Show your appreciation for a job well done. If you are not satisfied tip below 20%. As Elvin pointed out it's also about generosity, people who feel they shouldn't tip or that 15% is adequate fall towards the opposite side of the scale.


This is my final post here. Don, Have a great trip and enjoy yourself.

CXXX

 

[TickTockMan]

It comes down to work ethics. Someone with them will do their job because it is their job. Those without them will do their job for their wage +. It has nothing to do with being cheap.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Of course.
I just say we should switch to a system like in Japan or China, or parts of Europe, where you just don't tip and that additional revenue is automatically part of the bill (either in the charge for the meal itself or as an additional, nondiscretionary service charge).

Unclean, it's plain you see the different angles. That's nice, and I won't really disagree with you about the possible downsides to your program. But since this thread is elsewhere so full of venality and ineptness, I'd like to shine a little light on the good side of things.

Contrary to the uproar I believe most people really *like* to tip. In one way, it allows the fun of being an amateur critic. Generally speaking, how were things? It gives the customer a voice to vent their displeasure...or indifference...or show their admiration and delight. I think it may even crystallize the experience of gratitude in a way that simply paying a bill doesn't. There are times when people leave a tip and you can just tell they are leaving it with gladness. In an industry with so many possible negatives surrounding the exchange, that is truly appreciated.

And yes, receiving a tip is a pleasure too. Not simply for material reasons (and fuck knows I don't discount that) but because there's real pride in creating a good, or even wonderful, experience for someone else. Many people put a lot of time and effort into their jobs, learning and refining and expanding their skills. They generate knowledge about their goods, and practice precise techniques in executing their craft. A concrete acknowledgement of all that effort is, well, sometimes the only thing that can take away all the pain involved. No small thing! No small thing at all.

 

[zoltanspawn]

It is obvious you don't have the simple intelligence of a tree slug so I am not going to explain my post. I will suggest you learn to understand written English and then reread my post. You will then learn quite a bit, most specifically that I never suggested doing away with tips and tipping. What I did suggest was that employers start paying their employees for doing the job. Maybe then the custom of tipping can get back to its original purpose as a form of appreciation on the part of the customer, and a mirror of the quality of service that was provided to them, not as a subsidy of the employer's pocketbook.

You would be one of those servers who's thumb would slip into the soup which you would spill as you attempt to set it on the table. Then, upset that you were required to clean it up, you would not pay attention and knock the cups and glasses over. From there, your quality of service would go downhill. At the end of the meal, you would be irate with the customers for not enjoying your poor service and not offering you a tip that you would argue with them, demanding that they pay you a 200% tip as well as paying their own dry cleaning (for the clothing you spilled so many different items on) as well as covering the cost of all the dishes you destroyed providing your service. Please do the world a favor and get out of the service industry as you are NOT cut out for it.

Willie Boy, your subtlety has outdone me. Bravo.

Prints post for merriment of coworkers.

But you do know your signature contains a mis-spelling, right?!?

 

[zoltanspawn]

I use to be a boss of a large crew and if my crew didn’t do their job, they didn’t have one for much longer. You’re saying if you want it done right and all the way pay me more. Why should we, it’s your job?

Thynight, it's not really that you prefer to account for the cost of labor indirectly through the employer. It's that you are an admirer of obedience and the exactitude of the stick.

That’s a good way to get them fired. They would be better off without the tip.

What would be better for them is to not have to work in such a fuckhole in the first place.

 

[Willie Boy]

I think they ha it correct in the 16th century. If the service wasn't up to speed, smack 'em.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word tip originated as a slang term, and its etymology is unclear. The term in the sense of "to give a gratuity" first appeared in the 18th century. It derived from an earlier sense of tip, meaning "to give; to hand, pass", which originated in the rogues' cant in the 17th century. This sense may have derived from the 16th-century tip meaning "to strike or hit smartly but lightly" (which may have derived from the Low German tippen, "to tap"), but this derivation is "very uncertain".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_(gratuity)

 

[TickTockMan]

Thynight, it's not really that you prefer to account for the cost of labor indirectly through the employer. It's that you are an admirer of obedience and the exactitude of the stick.

Actually I was the most laid back supervisor there. I had people beg me to get on my crew. As long as they did their job everything was fine. Once they started to slack off on a regular basis they were fired. I was a hard ass, but we also had fun.

You’re trying to be insulting, but really you are just show your work ethic.

What would be better for them is to not have to work in such a fuckhole in the first place.

YEAH! So lets give them a tip and get them fired. That helps them out a lot.

 

[zoltanspawn]

You’re trying to be insulting, but really you are just show your work ethic.

Rather, I'm quite insulted by the idea that people should labor "because it is their job." It reminds me of not much less than casteism and worse. Unlike you, I believe in the virtues and pleasures of rewards.

Let me put it somewhat differently. Why do you feel it's extortion to account for the cost of labor directly by leaving a tip for a worker, but somehow not extortion to do the exact same indirectly through the employer?

 

[Spiff]

I suppose the people who clean the toilets are also paid with pocket change, so I guess I should leave money on the toilet every time I relieve myself.

 

[zoltanspawn]

I think they ha it correct in the 16th century. If the service wasn't up to speed, smack 'em.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_(gratuity)

Ha! Those were the days!

 

[Willie Boy]

Rather, I'm quite insulted by the idea that people should labor "because it is their job." It reminds me of not much less than casteism and worse. Unlike you, I believe in the virtues and pleasures of rewards.

Well then. Next time you go to your local grocery store, leave a tip. The product doesn't just magically appear on the shelves for you pick from. Next time you go to the dentist, make sure you tip your dentist (on his head if he provided poor service! ). Why not open it up across the board. Why not be equal? Or is it just your field that should be tipped because you just want more money.

Let me put it somewhat differently. Why do you feel it's extortion to account for the cost of labor directly by leaving a tip for a worker, but somehow not extortion to do the exact same indirectly through the employer?

Because it is the employer's job to pay the employees, plain and simple. Why do you think its ok to extort money from customers instead of insisting that your employer pay you a proper salary? As I said before, let us return the tip to what it originated as: a gift of appreciation for quality service.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Well then. Next time you go to your local grocery store, leave a tip. The product doesn't just magically appear on the shelves for you pick from. Next time you go to the dentist, make sure you tip your dentist (on his head if he provided poor service! ). Why not open it up across the board. Why not be equal? Or is it just your field that should be tipped because you just want more money.

Willie Boy, I think I've stated a few times that the reason I believe tipping works well in my field is because it provides incentive for excellent performance. I'm not sure the labor performed in grocery stores or doctors' offices is quite the same. Do you think the work a server performs is truly similar to the work a grocery clerk or a dentist does?

My personal motive, if you want me to make it explicit, is not that "I just want more money" in the way you seem to think. It's that I want the customer to receive superior service.

Because it is the employer's job to pay the employees, plain and simple. Why do you think its ok to extort money from customers instead of insisting that your employer pay you a proper salary? As I said before, let us return the tip to what it originated as: a gift of appreciation for quality service.

Because it is the customer's job to pay for labor, plain and simple. Why do you think it is it ok for the employer to extort money from customers instead of insisting that the customer pay the server directly for the services they enjoy?

This is hardly a question of self-evident principles.

But let me seriously try to answer your question. If we returned to those halcyon aristocratic norms, when good manners still let gentlemen air their graces by indulging the help with a few coins, when tipping was "only" a show of appreciation, we would nowadays still be paying for the labor, right?

The price of Wieners In Cream, at $6, would include the cost of labor. A Duchess might throw in a pittance to show her lack of indifference, but the work is paid for. And most importantly, the suggested insult of paying $5 + 20% (not $6) is done away with.

Here is what I have been trying to contend throughout: the $6 service of the Wieners In Cream that The Duchess enjoys will be diminished. The staff, though they are well schooled in subservience, have still never found the reward in labor in and of itself that they are supposed to. All they see is the whimsy of their masters, the dirty dishes, their aching feet and fingers and another night with lesser sustenance. In addition, because their wages are guaranteed, there's not much reason for them to try so very hard. Indeed, The Duchess' Wieners often are served cold and flaccid as a result. The staff sneaks off to the wine cellar to smoke cigarettes and count the wages they've already earned.

Luckily, The Duchess brandishes a mighty rod...

 

[Willie Boy]

Willie Boy, I think I've stated a few times that the reason I believe tipping works well in my field is because it provides incentive for excellent performance. I'm not sure the labor performed in grocery stores or doctors' offices is quite the same. Do you think the work a server performs is truly similar to the work a grocery clerk or a dentist does?

My personal motive, if you want me to make it explicit, is not that "I just want more money" in the way you seem to think. It's that I want the customer to receive superior service.

Then by all means provide that superior service. But do not demand more money for it, becoming nothing more than an extortionist. Take pride in your work like everybody else. Don't do your best just so you can demand more money from your customers than their bill would indicate. Let them offer you that extra as appreciation for your service, not because you emotionally twist their arms and demand it.

Do you tip stewards and stewardesses when you fly? They deliver your meals and drinks, provide pillows and blankets, answer questions, and generally make every effort to make your flight as comfortable. And they have to personally deal with irate idiots who should never be allowed on planes in the first place.

They provide more service than restaurant servers and they tend to have more "customers" than their landbased restaurant counterparts. And I have yet to see one of them offered a tip.

Your whole issue is that you feel your employer doesn't pay you enough. Deal with him, don't extort the money from your customers. Its his job to pay you, not ours.

Because it is the customer's job to pay for labor, plain and simple. Why do you think it is it ok for the employer to extort money from customers instead of insisting that the customer pay the server directly for the services they enjoy?

This is hardly a question of self-evident principles.

But let me seriously try to answer your question. If we returned to those halcyon aristocratic norms, when good manners still let gentlemen air their graces by indulging the help with a few coins, when tipping was "only" a show of appreciation, we would nowadays still be paying for the labor, right?

The price of Wieners In Cream, at $6, would include the cost of labor. A Duchess might throw in a pittance to show her lack of indifference, but the work is paid for. And most importantly, the suggested insult of paying $5 + 20% (not $6) is done away with.

Here is what I have been trying to contend throughout: the $6 service of the Wieners In Cream that The Duchess enjoys will be diminished. The staff, though they are well schooled in subservience, have still never found the reward in labor in and of itself that they are supposed to. All they see is the whimsy of their masters, the dirty dishes, their aching feet and fingers and another night with lesser sustenance. In addition, because their wages are guaranteed, there's not much reason for them to try so very hard. Indeed, The Duchess' Wieners often are served cold and flaccid as a result. The staff sneaks off to the wine cellar to smoke cigarettes and count the wages they've already earned.

Luckily, The Duchess brandishes a mighty rod...

You seem to think that the employer hasn't already included the cost of labor in the price of the meal. That is sheer idiocy. He just wants to keep it for himself. Tips were never intended as a way to pay for labor. The employer pays his employees for their labor. This is why they work for him. That is the plain and simple of it. The employer just doesn't pay his employees what they feel they deserve. And the employees, instead of being smart and dealing with the problem, extort money from their customers, making us feel like going elsewhere.

In the long run the employer will lose customers, causing him to cut back on expenditures (lower pay and or fewer workers). This in turn will cause the employees to demand even more money from their customers... Hey wait, that has been happening.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Then by all means provide that superior service.

Although I take a great deal of pride in my work, I'm not a server. You have simply assumed that I am. I do, however, have a professional interest in good service.

Do you tip stewards and stewardesses when you fly? ...... And I have yet to see one of them offered a tip.

I don't think this is a good comparison, either. It would be interesting to calculate the impact on the final bill, though, if servers were paid similar wages!

Its his job (the employer's) to pay you, not ours.

And where, again, will he get the money to pay the server their wage? Does he have a magic bag filled with money?

You seem to think that the employer hasn't already included the cost of labor in the price of the meal. That is sheer idiocy. .

I must be an idiot, then, because I don't just seem to think that. I do think that. Employers ONLY include minimum wage (for servers) in the cost of a meal.

 

[TickTockMan]

Rather, I'm quite insulted by the idea that people should labor "because it is their job."

You’re right. They should just sit down and take a load off. How dare we expect someone to work for their pay.

Let me put it somewhat differently. Why do you feel it's extortion to account for the cost of labor directly by leaving a tip for a worker, but somehow not extortion to do the exact same indirectly through the employer?

Because the cost of labor has already been paid. If you go out to eat the price of service is within the price of your order.

My personal motive, if you want me to make it explicit, is not that "I just want more money" in the way you seem to think. It's that I want the customer to receive superior service.

It’s not “superior” if one has to bribe someone to get it. Besides I am sure most servers just want the money.

 

[Willie Boy]

Although I take a great deal of pride in my work, I'm not a server. You have simply assumed that I am. I do, however, have a professional interest in good service.



I don't think this is a good comparison, either. It would be interesting to calculate the impact on the final bill, though, if servers were paid similar wages!



And where, again, will he get the money to pay the server their wage? Does he have a magic bag filled with money?



I must be an idiot, then, because I don't just seem to think that. I do think that. Employers ONLY include minimum wage (for servers) in the cost of a meal.

And you have just proven your greed. Servers are already paid for their work, but they insist on DEMANDING more money from their customers. Don't you understand that THIS is the reason that many customers are less likely to offer tips? We feel like our arms are being twisted because the servers are not happy with the wage they originally hired on for. If they would just do their job to the best of their ability in an attempt to provide quality service we would be more appreciative and therefore more willing to offer a tip.

If the server feels his/her boss isn't paying enough he/she should either take it up with his/her boss, or get a better paying job. But don't make demands of your customers.

I'm tired of beating this dead horse. Your greed has eroded your common sense far enough that you just can't grasp even the simplest thoughts. I will no longer waste my time trying to help you understand the facts.

 

[TickTockMan]

One cannot argue with greed.

 

[zoltanspawn]

How dare we expect someone to work for their pay.

Ah! So at least you admit that people work for some reason other than the joy inherent in labor! Pay, people work for pay! That's a more reasonable formulation, I think. But what about pay?

Because the cost of labor has already been paid. If you go out to eat the price of service is within the price of your order.

No. You have ONLY paid the cost of labor within your order in the amount of *minimum wage*. Repeat: ONLY minimum wage. Perhaps you believe that is fair compensation for a server?

It’s not “superior” if one has to bribe someone to get it.

My opinion is obviously different, that the incentive of a tip motivates excellence of service. Of course I've dined out, well, quite a lot indeed. So I have a strong grasp of the pragmatic ways in which a tip helps insure superior service. And of course, restaurants are my field, so I've also seen firsthand from behind the scenes how tips motivate excellence of service.

Let me see again if I can get you to explain your "not superior" claim. Why? Why is it inferior to pay the employee directly, and superior to pay the employee indirectly?

Besides I am sure most servers just want the money.

Shame on them.

 

[zoltanspawn]

And you have just proven your greed.

If you think it's "greed" to expect that people should earn more than minimum wage we are indeed at an impasse.

However, since you are done with this thread and since it's about the dignity of labor which I think is important, I don't mind making a few more comments.

Servers are already paid for their work,

Minimum wage.

but they insist on DEMANDING more money from their customers.

One thing we shall never learn is how you feel so "compelled" to pay a tip? Certainly, it's not threads like this one! These should only make you more parsimonious. Do servers brandish pepper grinders menacingly at you? Does the sommelier snap her tasting cup demandingly in your direction? Or maybe that dragoness Emily Post visits you at night, her suggestions terrifying as a succubus' sighs that you must, you mussst, you must tip 35%! Oh God!

Don't you understand that THIS is the reason that many customers are less likely to offer tips?

Many? Ha ha! There is absolutely no shortage of people happy to leave a generous tip. Quite the opposite, its penury like yours which is rare.

We feel like our arms are being twisted because the servers are not happy with the wage they originally hired on for.

Servers are always hired with the understanding that they will earn tips. This is the "custom." It's such a commonplace idea that I don't think I've ever seen it stated formally. No server would accept a service job in the first place if all they were going to earn was minimum wage! (Unless forced to work in the hellfired fastfood joints you haunt.)

Here's to generosity!

 

[Ranchman]

I still say 15% is plenty!!