"Torture" at Club Gitmo

[chance1]

Confusing also is the great esteem they hold for Senator McCain but then completely ignore his knowledge and advice on the unreliability of torture as an effective method of interrogation ..... it just doesn't make any sense!

confusing?

how so?

I like many candidates - and agree on some issues/disagree on others

that's the way life is

u don't agree with everything

that would be boring wouldn't it?

I have the utmost regard for John McCain - just disagree on this

that's what makes the world go round

anything but confusing smelter

 

[NickCole]

Just shooting the bastards is certainly more humane.

Just shooting the bastards, eh?

People who have not been charged, much less tried or convicted.

Just shoot the bastards, he says.

This is what's wrong with BushRepublicans and they cannot be allowed to remain in power because they are ruining the United States of America.

Just shoot people because they are a certain religion or look a certain way or live in a certain country; just shoot them without charging them, trying or convicting them. The United States I love is better than that.

 

[HenryReardon]

30 Nov 04
NY Times

The International Committee of Red Cross charges in confidential reports to United States government that American military has intentionally used psychological and sometimes physical coercion 'tantamount to torture' on prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; report follows monthlong visit to Guantanamo by Red Cross inspection team last June; it claims some doctors and other medical workers at Guantanamo participated in planning for interrogations, calling this 'flagrant violation of medical ethics'; Bush administration and military officials sharply reject report's charges; Red Cross has been conducting visits to Guantanamo since Jan 2002; this is first time it has asserted in such strong terms that treatment of detainees, both physical and psychological, amounts to torture.

Seems every claim you've made in this thread is wrong.

As I said, the International Red Cross found no evidence of actual torture.
Thank you for confirming my point.

 

[smelter]

As I said, the International Red Cross found no evidence of actual torture.
Thank you for confirming my point.

Another example of the BushRepublican 'clamp hands over ears and scream la la la' defense.

You know Henry, if you close your eyes real tight the whole world magically disappears. Remember doing that when you were about 3 years old.

 

[HenryReardon]

"tantamount to" and "amounts to" are very carefully chosen phrases that stop short of calling it torture.

Not being able to prove actual torture, the Intl Red Cross used those phrases, knowing full well that the anti-American crowd would pick up on and run with them.

 

[smelter]

confusing?
how so?
I like many candidates - and agree on some issues/disagree on others
that's the way life is
u don't agree with everything
that would be boring wouldn't it?
I have the utmost regard for John McCain - just disagree on this
that's what makes the world go round
anything but confusing smelter

That's very deep Chance, but I'll see your Yin and raise you two Yangs.

 

[smelter]

"tantamount to" and "amounts to" are very carefully chosen phrases that stop short of calling it torture.

So now we've reduced the torture argument down to a semantic exercise! Kind of a weak defense, dontcha think?

tantamount
adjective
Agreeing exactly in value, quantity, or effect: equal, equivalent, even 1, identical, same.
Idioms: on a par, one and the same. See same
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/thesaurus/entry/tantamount

Not being able to prove actual torture, the Intl Red Cross used those phrases, knowing full well that the anti-American crowd would pick up on and run with them.

Is this your opinion or is it documented somewhere?

 

[NickCole]

As I said, the International Red Cross found no evidence of actual torture.
Thank you for confirming my point.

Why pretend you'd care one way or the other?

BTW - as a lady said in a letter to the editor of our local paper a couple of years ago "I don't care what they do with Muslin prisoners." Most people I know feel the same way.

 

[chance1]

That's very deep Chance, but I'll see your Yin and raise you two Yangs.

I see ur attempting to up the comedy/tap dance part of ur act

but the bottom line is VERY CLEAR

agreeing with a candidate/person 100% of the time is very rare

thinking that you should is what's confusion

that's my tit

for ur upcoming tat

 

[HenryReardon]

Is this your opinion or is it documented somewhere

Their actions speak for themselves.

 

[chance1]

I agree, however, how is it that McCain's position against torture, having been a PoW and tortured, is wrong?

McCain's position is to be valued and respected - especially because of his personal history

He feels that it doesn't work
He feels that it is against our principles
That we should not stoop to that level

I understand this

And if we were still in a pre 911 world I would probably agree. The idea that u don't do it to them because u don't want it done to u - I get. But the terrorists we are dealing have no problem with torture - and will do so regardless. So the question is, if ur not preventing it against ur people - and u feel u can derive important info, why wouldn't u do it? If it is for the greater good, to save lives.

I for one don't believe in 24-like TV show torture - but things like water boarding - I'm cool with

I think forcing someone to tell what they know to save lives is worth it

The semantics of what is and what isn't torture is dicey

Not looking to stab someone 30x, just enough to inflict pain, not enough to kill them

I could go on an on

the greater good

I dig McCain - think he's wrong on this one

But he makes me pause on it

 

[opinterph]

The NY Times got hold of a confidential report from the [ICRC] to the Bush administration …

Does anyone know how findings from the confidential reports came to published by the New York Times?

International Committee of Red Cross charges in confidential reports to United States government … have provoked stormy debate within Red Cross committee, some of whom say they should make their concerns public or at least aggressively confront Bush administration. [Link]

​

"tantamount to" and "amounts to" are very carefully chosen phrases that stop short of calling it torture.

Not being able to prove actual torture, the Intl Red Cross used those phrases, knowing full well that the anti-American crowd would pick up on and run with them.

Confidentiality:

Wherever the ICRC visits places of detention, its findings and observations about the conditions and treatment for detainees are discussed confidentially with the authorities in charge. Guantanamo Bay is no exception.

Confidentiality is an important working tool for the ICRC in order to preserve the exclusively humanitarian nature of its work. The ICRC is concerned that any information it divulges about its findings could easily be exploited for political gain. Moreover, the policy of confidentiality ensures that the ICRC obtains and, importantly, maintains, access to tens of thousands of detainees around the world. [Link]

 

[SixPackInBoxers]

Well the US is not just a party to the Geneva Convention. The act of signing it made it the law of the land. It is the US Law.

If it is ignored when seems convenient for the US because of fear, it will be ignored in the future by others and used against US citizens and US forces and the US will have no moral argument as to why it should not be.

The US also has a Constitution. Ignore that and what has the country become?

The United States was a founder of the United Nations to help extend civil rights around the world.

Civil rights and the rule of law are at the heart of what America has been all about. It is what was embedded in its Constitution and in so doing extended these rights further than any nation in the world. For that it has in the past stood as a beacon to those denied those rights. Or are you saying it has now become as nothing?

Those of you who are supporting arbitrary measures - and redneck solutions - are simply doing the enemy’s job for them. Where Al Qaeda has failed to take away the liberties enshrined in the US constitution you are, unwitting perhaps, collaborating with them, as Bush has done, beyond their wildest expectations. You are doing the job that they could not do to the United States by spreading the intolerance that they have failed to do.

This is what can happen when unreasoned and unreasoning fear is allowed to take over. It is what happened in Nazi Germany. It is what is happening now to part of our population because of lack of leadership and the unbelievable spectre of Americans - I take it you are - condoning torture and "saying I don’t care what happens to Muslim prisoners." I suppose that means if they were gassed you wouldn't care?

If the people listen to those of you who would abandon any moral high road and simply want to mimic ones adversaries, how are you different from them? We have become them.

Surely if you think about it, you guys cannot really mean what you have written. It is very disturbing stuff to read – and even more so when a kid, like Chance, gets caught up in it and thinks they are "the finest series of posts" that he has "ever read". Pull yourselves together guys, for goodness sake!

 

[Txgoodoldboy]

Why did the Bushies set up the camps at Gitmo? They did it to get around the rule of law.

I thought the Bushies had admitted to "water boarding"?

Waterboarding is a form of torture[1] or more specifically water torture or water cure. It is used to obtain information, coerce confessions, and for punishment and intimidation. Waterboarding consists of immobilizing an individual and pouring water over his face to simulate drowning, which produces a severe gag reflex, making the subject believe his death is imminent while ideally not causing permanent physical damage. "The threat of imminent death" is one of the legal definitions of torture under U.S. law [2]. The UN Convention against Torture prohibits the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering [3][4] In November 2005, anonymous sources told ABC news that the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency uses waterboarding, but does not deem it torture.[5] However CIA Inspector General John L. Helgerson has said the techniques "appeared to constitute cruel, and degrading treatment under the (Geneva) convention." (ibid.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding

I hope the Bushies are brought up on war crimes.

 

[White Eagle]

Just shooting the bastards is certainly more humane.

They came for the Communists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Communist;
They came for the Socialists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Socialist;
They came for the labor leaders, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a labor leader;
They came for the Jews, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a Jew;
Then they came for me - And there was no one left to object.

- Martin Niemoller, German Protestant Pastor, 1892-1984

I think you could add this line just before "Then they came for me"

Then they came for the terrorists, and I didn't object - For I wasn't a terrorist.

Eventually the people responsible for shredding our Constitution will get to you. You will not believe it when one of them says, "Just shoot him it is certainly more humane."

 

[jackoroe]

Just shooting the bastards, eh?

People who have not been charged, much less tried or convicted.

Just shoot the bastards, he says.

This is what's wrong with BushRepublicans and they cannot be allowed to remain in power because they are ruining the United States of America.

Just shoot people because they are a certain religion or look a certain way or live in a certain country; just shoot them without charging them, trying or convicting them. The United States I love is better than that.

I suppose your conferring rights on to people who are not entitled to them makes us a better country. Wish it all you want. It simply isn't so as a matter of law. Change the law if you want. But don't throw tantrums if you don't get your way.