Twitter has been overtaken by a narcissistic weirdo.

[cityboy-stl]

What you are calling for is censorship of people you don't agree with and for things that could happen or already are happening. In what world is that free speech?

We are not talking about the first amendment and government censorship in this thread. We are talking about Twitter and the potential impact of Elon Musk's takeover of it. The first amendment does not apply to Twitter, it applies to Congress. We are talking about the consequences of unrestricted, abuse of free-speech. Abuse of free speech with the intention of sedition, insurrection, hate, violence, disinformation, treason, and overthrowing the U.S. government. That's not just disagreeing with someone.

The U.S. is sitting on a fascist powder keg of Nazi rage and hate. We are the on the doorstep of a fascist apocalypse that could make Nazi Germany, with all its accompanying horrors, look like an afternoon garden party. States are already adding links, one-by-one, to enslave and strangle the people in the far-Reich fascist chain. Look at what Florida is doing, and Texas, look at the similar laws now being proposed in many states. Twitter provides a common base for all the proponents of this ideology - all the disgusting stuff I mentioned earlier - to tether all the links together in one big giant fascist network that lights the fuse to take down this country. Trump tried to do it, until they cut him off.

If they are successful, you will no longer have free speech. They are using and abusing free speech to destroy free speech, just like state legislatures are using democracy to destroy democracy. Anyone who opposes them will end up - think Germany, 1942. Obviously, Twitter can't do all that by itself. But Twitter becomes just one powerful tool in the ultimate goal of turning the U.S. into a fascist, plutocratic, authoritarian dictatorship. Welcome to the Fourth Reich - The Fascist States of America.

That's the worst case scenario of Musk taking over Twitter and allowing anyone to say anything. It is not that far-fetched. That's what this thread is about.

 

[gsdx]

We are not talking about the first amendment and government censorship in this thread.

Indeed. The 'First Amendment' exists in only one place in the entire world. Twitter does not.

 

[TickTockMan]

You guys are doing mental gymnastics to justify blocking speech you don't like.

You warn of Germany when it is your side that is calling for censorship.

We have been "The Fascist States of America" for a long time. That is why Musk won't need to change things much. The ex-owners already have it the way you warn about, but they are doing it to those you don't agree with. And that gives you all the warm and fuzzies.

You are not worried Musk will do something new, you are worried he will go back to the way it was. You are scared of old Twitter because it was not regulated enough to control those you want controlled.

 

[cityboy-stl]

^ You are never going to understand the existential threat, the clear and present danger, to the very existence of the United States these fascist people pose. When your enemies are seeking to destroy the country, you're damn right I want them controlled. This is not like disagreeing on tax policy. It is defending against those who openly want you dead. Letting them have free rein is like lighting the fuse on the bomb that blows up your own house. Wait and see how far free speech goes when they gain real power and begin carrying people off to concentration camps because something was said that they don't like. They're a threat, not just an policy disagreement. But if you're OK with everything they're doing and want to do, that's your free speech too.

 

[TickTockMan]

^ You are never going to understand the existential threat, the clear and present danger, to the very existence of the United States these fascist people pose. When your enemies are seeking to destroy the country, you're damn right I want them controlled. This is not like disagreeing on tax policy. It is defending against those who openly want you dead. Letting them have free rein is like lighting the fuse on the bomb that blows up your own house. Wait and see how far free speech goes when they gain real power and begin carrying people off to concentration camps because something was said that they don't like. They're a threat, not just an policy disagreement. But if you're OK with everything they're doing and want to do, that's your free speech too.

I do understand though.

But all you say you fear them doing, is what I see you pushing for. You are out fascisting the fascists.

 

[cityboy-stl]

I do understand though.

But all you say you fear them doing, is what I see you pushing for. You are out fascisting the fascists.

No. That is wrong. How in the world could you possibly conclude I am pushing for what they are doing? HOW? Nothing I said, nothing I am pushing for, is calling for violent overthrow of the government, deceiving people with disinformation for dollars, hating people because of racism, misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia, anti-semitism, denying science reality, spouting insane conspiracy nonsense, or supporting foreign governments to divide and conquer our society. Free speech does not extend to hurting other people or hurting society. Hate is not free speech. A platform that advocates for real free speech does not allow a hate mongering free-for-all mob to seize and take control of the platform itself. It would descend into chaos. You cannot allow the trolls to take over.

But you have not once even acknowledged the harm that the content you are advocating for can cause. What you are pushing for is the freedom to lie, the freedom to hate, the freedom to organize and instigate violent insurrection, the freedom for Vladimir Putin to publish disinformation to divide the public, the freedom to inflict misery and pain upon other people with a few words, the freedom to spew every vile, sick, hateful, disgusting, evil, poisonous statement across the public media because you think it is somehow free speech. The freedom to say anything at all with no conscience and no consequence is only a masquerade for intolerance, ignorance, stupidity, falsehood, and out-and-out hate. Look at what Alex Jones did to those poor parents at Sandy Hook by saying the murder of their children was not real, but a media staged event. Look at how much grief that caused them. How can you defend what he said and call it free speech? Do you actually think that is right? That kind of speech is what is, and what will destroy us. But that is what you are pushing for, and clearly what it sounds like you want.

But, I doubt you're even reading anything I'm saying.

 

[TickTockMan]

No. That is wrong. How in the world could you possibly conclude I am pushing for what they are doing? HOW? Nothing I said, nothing I am pushing for, is calling for violent overthrow of the government, deceiving people with disinformation for dollars, hating people because of racism, misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia, anti-semitism, denying science reality, spouting insane conspiracy nonsense, or supporting foreign governments to divide and conquer our society. Free speech does not extend to hurting other people or hurting society. Hate is not free speech. A platform that advocates for real free speech does not allow a hate mongering free-for-all mob to seize and take control of the platform itself. It would descend into chaos. You cannot allow the trolls to take over.

But you have not once even acknowledged the harm that the content you are advocating for can cause. What you are pushing for is the freedom to lie, the freedom to hate, the freedom to organize and instigate violent insurrection, the freedom for Vladimir Putin to publish disinformation to divide the public, the freedom to inflict misery and pain upon other people with a few words, the freedom to spew every vile, sick, hateful, disgusting, evil, poisonous statement across the public media because you think it is somehow free speech. The freedom to say anything at all with no conscience and no consequence is only a masquerade for intolerance, ignorance, stupidity, falsehood, and out-and-out hate. Look at what Alex Jones did to those poor parents at Sandy Hook by saying the murder of their children was not real, but a media staged event. Look at how much grief that caused them. How can you defend what he said and call it free speech? Do you actually think that is right? That kind of speech is what is, and what will destroy us. But that is what you are pushing for, and clearly what it sounds like you want.

But, I doubt you're even reading anything I'm saying.

I have read every word you have posted.

I will break it down this way.

No. That is wrong. How in the world could you possibly conclude I am pushing for what they are doing? HOW? Nothing I said, nothing I am pushing for, is calling for violent overthrow of the government, deceiving people with disinformation for dollars, hating people because of racism, misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia, anti-semitism, denying science reality, spouting insane conspiracy nonsense, or supporting foreign governments to divide and conquer our society.

You are though and many like you are. Fascism is marked by a few tenets. From Wikipedia because it is easiest:

“Characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.”


The powers that be that call themselves the left are doing all three of those things on this topic and others. Musk taking over Twitter is a powder keg for all three. No one knows where Musk will fall so those in power are worried. They in turn are trying at every turn to suppress him. For something he has not even done yet, for something they fear. That is pushing a regimentation of thinking over people which in turn effects the economy. To me this is not left or right issue. Most people don’t even fully comprehend terms like fascism. To me this is a class issue of the rich and powerful keeping the rest of us busy.

We are being gas lit by those in power. I dislike the so called left and right. But if you look closely they both do the same things. When I see a half dozen news agencies use the same phrase to describe talking points it stands out to me. When I see it on the so call left and right news channels it stands out even more. When I see people such as yourself talk down about Fox News all the time and stay quiet on CNN, MSNBC, etc. It makes sense. It is what you have seen from your preferred news channel. However when the anchors start playing musical chairs between channels it standout a blazing sun that the channels are not so different. The anchors coverage tend not to really change, they still give out the same message. You may be surprised by how much the left and the right’s messages are the same, what is different is who the message is directed to and timing. I would give examples, but I know you would pay them no mind because we have been down this road before.

The talking heads that speak the loudest shouting the same as you do about Musk all have ties to the same people. No matter where you get your news it is coming from someone with an agenda. It is those people trying to force suppression of opposition. It is those people that get the same thoughts flying in from all news sources. It is their way to regiment all of us. Fascism is known for being reactionary. What is being mad at Musk for taking over Twitter, but reactionary?

Free speech does not extend to hurting other people or hurting society. Hate is not free speech. A platform that advocates for real free speech does not allow a hate mongering free-for-all mob to seize and take control of the platform itself. It would descend into chaos. You cannot allow the trolls to take over.

But you have not once even acknowledged the harm that the content you are advocating for can cause.

You are writing about something that has not happened. You are being reactionary. You know that because you even mentioned it in the last sentence. “Can cause.”

No system will be able to do free speech and protect from those you mention; trolls, hate mongrels, etc. 100%. However stopping people from doing things full stop before they could do them is censoring in the name of what could be.

What you are pushing for is the freedom to lie, the freedom to hate, the freedom to organize and instigate violent insurrection, the freedom for Vladimir Putin to publish disinformation to divide the public, the freedom to inflict misery and pain upon other people with a few words,

To a point, yes. I prefer to let people speak and show me who they are.

You are oversimplifying it though. You have already decided who gets to tell you things. They get to tell you who to believe, who to trust, who deserves misery and more. You seem to be okay with that as your comments tend to show you have the same talking points. My problem with that is the same from above. Who is saying and what is their agenda.

You mention lying, but many lies have grounds with truth. To me you are accepting lies (i.e.: reacting to what may happen) while calling out others for their lies. You mention hate and in a less strong sense what is hate, but reacting to something that has not happened? You mention organizing and instigating a violent insurrection; and here is the rub, but who gets to decide what “violent insurrection” is? It is the people the insurrection is against and I am not talking about just the politicians, but the money men. You mention Putin and disinformation, but again much Putin has said has ground in truth. Why are you so sure what you think is disinformation is the disinformation and not the truth? Some of the thing I have read people calling him out for lying about can be proven. Doesn’t mean he is not an asshole or not lying some of the time, but it seems you are pretty set on Putin bad others good.

the freedom to spew every vile, sick, hateful, disgusting, evil, poisonous statement across the public media because you think it is somehow free speech. The freedom to say anything at all with no conscience and no consequence is only a masquerade for intolerance, ignorance, stupidity, falsehood, and out-and-out hate. Look at what Alex Jones did to those poor parents at Sandy Hook by saying the murder of their children was not real, but a media staged event. Look at how much grief that caused them. How can you defend what he said and call it free speech? Do you actually think that is right? That kind of speech is what is, and what will destroy us. But that is what you are pushing for, and clearly what it sounds like you want.

I don’t think it is free speech and neither did the court that found Alex Jones liable for damages. Again I prefer to let people speak and show me who they are. And what do you me no consequence, he was held liable.

Being part neutral on Musk taking over Twitter is not defending nor saying what is free speech. It is saying lets not over react to something that has not happened.

Taking away people’s free speech before they can offend is rooted in fear. It is wrong if for no other reason than in time it will be used against you.

Like it or not the computer age has made it easier to cause grief. There is no good way to balance free speech and censorship prior to the offence without turning it into censorship.


We are closer together on this than you realize. It is the gaslighting that is making it hazy.

 

[Araucaria]

Let's for a moment imagine what it would be like to have the free-for-all that you seem to advocate. For illustrative purposes, imagine that instead of Twitter we are talking about JustUsBoys. Would you like to come on here and see, for example:

1. Homophobes posting memes that say "Y'all need to stop sinning and being gay and accept Jesus"

2. Extremists advocating taking up arms and committing acts of violence against the people who hate us

3. Russian bots posting lies and disinformation about LGBT+ rights organizations, to sow hostility and distrust in the community

4. Pedophiles advocating for and soliciting contacts with children

5. Spammers and scammers flooding the threads with get rich quick schemes and clever tricks and hyperlinks designed to trick you into giving personal information or installing malware on your computer

I'm afraid this site would quickly cease to be a fun place, and members would either get suckered into arguing with these people (or "people"), constantly blocking, or leave the site completely. Is that what you want?

 

[Cormac135]

Let's for a moment imagine what it would be like to have the free-for-all that you seem to advocate. For illustrative purposes, imagine that instead of Twitter we are talking about JustUsBoys. Would you like to come on here and see, for example:

1. Homophobes posting memes that say "Y'all need to stop sinning and being gay and accept Jesus"

2. Extremists advocating taking up arms and committing acts of violence against the people who hate us

3. Russian bots posting lies and disinformation about LGBT+ rights organizations, to sow hostility and distrust in the community

4. Pedophiles advocating for and soliciting contacts with children

5. Spammers and scammers flooding the threads with get rich quick schemes and clever tricks and hyperlinks designed to trick you into giving personal information or installing malware on your computer

I'm afraid this site would quickly cease to be a fun place, and members would either get suckered into arguing with these people (or "people"), constantly blocking, or leave the site completely. Is that what you want?

Oh God, yes please.

 

[cityboy-stl]

I have read every word you have posted.

I will break it down this way.

Look. You are just cloaking everything in ambiguity and playing the what-about, everybody-does-it game. Not buying it.

A one line definition of fascism from Wiki is inadequate. Fascism 101: Accuse the other side of what you yourself are doing. That is what the fascists try to moan and cry about when they are held accountable: "boo hoo, you are trying to suppress me, you fascist". BS. Remember the Paradox of tolerance? Did you understand it? You mention nothing about the whole list of isms and phobias also associated with these people, but none of that is coming from Democrats. What you copied from Wiki is a description at an authoritarian government level. No Democrat is advocating for that, but they are. It is a false equivalency to compare Twitter banning hate speech to a Fascist, authoritarian government.

Why do you think Europe has such strict hate speech laws now? It couldn't be, so they don't descend down the same path they went down in the 1930s, could it?

Musk has not done anything yet because he hasn't taken over yet. But, he clearly has said what he will do, and that's why everyone is reacting the way they are. People are reacting that way because Trump used Twitter and some others, to organize and to communicate with his Brown Shirts during the Jan 6 insurrection and that is why Twitter kicked him off. Opening the door again to Trump is an invitation for him to do the same. Another example is, the source of most of the anti-vaccine disinformation came from just a few people who used social media to lie to the people about Covid and the vaccines while selling them their books and quack preventatives and cures. The number of preventable deaths directly associated with vaccine disinformation is high. Do you want to give them an open platform on Twitter again? Musk does, at least from what he says, he does.

You keep saying I am writing about blocking people for something they haven't done. Not true, I've never said that. I am writing about those who already have a history, and who have already been banned for what they have said or done. I am writing about letting them back on to do it all over again. Because that's what Musk says he wants to do. People like Trump, like Roger Stone. Of course, you cannot ban people proactively, unless it is clear they represent an already banned group with a hateful agenda, like Proud Boys. Do you want to give the platform on Twitter back to Proud Boys? Musk does, at least from what he says, he does.

I am not getting into a discussion about the news channels because that is off-topic for this thread.

Who gets to decide what a violent insurrection is? You're not seriously asking that? You know darn well that means the violent, insurrection attempt to overthrow the government and constitution of the United States on Jan 6, 2021. Don't play dumb. That's the only one that has happened and, given a chance, it will happen again in 2025 if they don't get their way. Are we supposed to let those who planned and executed Jan 6 have free rein to do it again?

Don't be so naive about disinformation. You know what disinformation is. The election was stolen and Trump really won, is disinformation. The Covid vaccine makes you magnetic and injects a microchip, is disinformation. John F Kennedy Jr. is alive and is Trump's vice president, is disinformation. Hillary Clinton ran a pedophile ring out of a pizza parlor basement, is disinformation. Need I go on?

What, pray tell, do you think Putin is being truthful about? I can't believe you are actually defending Vladimir Putin. Really?

 

[TickTockMan]

Look. You are just cloaking everything in ambiguity and playing the what-about, everybody-does-it game. Not buying it.

“Accuse your enemy of what you are doing, as you are doing it to create confusion.” Karl Marx


I will just point out you are the one wanting to stop someone from doing something before they do it. Not me. That is as authoritarian as you can get.

You are so sure democrats are on your side you won't even look at their actions. You are fine with their friendly words. Words mean little. Actions mean everything.

Just because someone says they are on the left doesn't mean they are. Their actions show you who they are and if you were being honest you would see the campaign that is being run.

 

[TickTockMan]

Let's for a moment imagine what it would be like to have the free-for-all that you seem to advocate.

If that is what you got from post #47, read it again. How can I be for a free for all and holding people liable?

 

[cityboy-stl]

“Accuse your enemy of what you are doing, as you are doing it to create confusion.” Karl Marx


I will just point out you are the one wanting to stop someone from doing something before they do it. Not me. That is as authoritarian as you can get.

You are so sure democrats are on your side you won't even look at their actions. You are fine with their friendly words. Words mean little. Actions mean everything.

Just because someone says they are on the left doesn't mean they are. Their actions show you who they are and if you were being honest you would see the campaign that is being run.

You are responding just like the right wing trolls on Facebook. I CLEARLY said I was not trying to proactively stop anyone before they did something.

I am DONE WITH YOU.

 

[TickTockMan]

You are responding just like the right wing trolls on Facebook. I CLEARLY said I was not trying to proactively stop anyone before they did something.

I am DONE WITH YOU.

And what you say you are doing and what you are doing is not the same thing.


Or are you saying Musk has already did all the things you say he may? Keep in mind he has not taken over yet.

 

[cityboy-stl]

And what you say you are doing and what you are doing is not the same thing.


Or are you saying Musk has already did all the things you say he may? Keep in mind he has not taken over yet.

You didn't even read what I said. I know Musk has not taken over yet. It's about what he has said he wants to do.

You keep saying I am writing about blocking people for something they haven't done. Not true, I've never said that. I am writing about those who already have a history, and who have already been banned for what they have said or done. I am writing about letting them back on to do it all over again. Because that's what Musk says he wants to do. People like Trump, like Roger Stone. Of course, you cannot ban people proactively, unless it is clear they represent an already banned group with a hateful agenda, like Proud Boys. Do you want to give the platform on Twitter back to Proud Boys? Musk does, at least from what he says, he does.

 

[TickTockMan]

You didn't even read what I said.

I am not talking about just one of your posts. I have responded to everything you have wrote to this point. You say I am just like a right wing troll. Great reply.


This goes back to who gets to decide what is wrong or a lie. You are for life time bans for people you disagree with. With no irony you automatically defend the side you like.

You talked about consequences while ignoring your own example was found liable. You are all over the place, but it all sound pretty authoritarian to me.

 

[cityboy-stl]

And by the way...Alex Jones and Infowars have been banned on Twitter since September 2018.

Do you think Alex Jones and his hate mongering disinformation website should be back on Twitter in the name of "free speech"?

 

[gsdx]

You didn't even read what I said. I know Musk has not taken over yet. It's about what he has said he wants to do.

I read today that he's considering making Twitter a 'pay-to-link' website, not for the poster who posts the link but the website where the post is linked.

i.e. If you post a link here to a Twitter post, JUB would have to pay a fee.

Think of how many twitter posts you see. How well would that idea go over?

 

[TickTockMan]

And by the way...Alex Jones and Infowars have been banned on Twitter since September 2018.

Do you think Alex Jones and his hate mongering disinformation website should be back on Twitter in the name of "free speech"?

No, because he has shown who he is. He spoke and showed who he is. That is the point. Many that get banned is for what those currently in power dislike, but the swing of power changes. Full life time bans for people that go up against those in power is asinine.

 

[gsdx]

Just like JUB, Twitter is a private business. So is Walmart or McDonald's or any other private business. And just like JUB, they have the right to make their own rules.

How do you feel about all the JUB members who have been banned over the years for not adhering to JUB's Code of Conduct? Imagine JUB without the CoC.

Now, imagine Twitter without rules.