Universal vs. Market-Based Health Care

[HenryReardon]

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But your argument is "I don't support it unless it helps someone I know and then I do."

Not quite that. My belief system is mine, and I do not choose to force it on anyone else. I am responsible for myself, and accountable to nobody else.

Others are responsible for themselves.

If a friend asks for assistance . . . well, that's too rarified a concept for the left to grasp. The government is supposed to do everything. Can't have people helping themselves and/or each other.

 

[TheTalkingAsshole]

I dont' support drug abuse but I should help someone buy crack?

Where's the logic in that?

If you don't support public heath care, then no.. you shouldn't help your friend who was too lazy get get insurance get free care.

You should have reminded him that his situation was his fault and tell him it's not your problem. Why should your friend get better treatment than anyone else in your world?

So people who have no insurance are lazy? How progressive of you

 

[HenryReardon]

Um no... I don't think that.. I was repeating what Henry said in the past.

You gotta follow the trail of crumbs..

Actually, he was lying about what I've said in the past, but never mind.
Once one, always one.
Nuff said.

 

[TheTalkingAsshole]

Um no... I don't think that.. I was repeating what Henry said in the past.

You gotta follow the trail of crumbs..

Well, ya see, I did look back through all of your and Henry's posts...and he gave no reason why his friend had no insurance. And you said that he must be lazy, not Henry. And I did follow the crumbs...I posted after you.

 

[TheTalkingAsshole]

Ok, I guess I worked in the word "lazy," but it's certainly where he was going with that.

The point is that he says his friend didn't have insurance and that people who aren't insured are usually that way by choice. He says he doesn't believe in universal care but helps people get it if they need it.

Seems a bit.. circular, don't ya think?

So you're a mind reader? I didn't see him going there, but then again I don't have ESPN.

And he didn't exactly say he doesn't believe in universal health care. He said it's not a good idea, that it's not in the Constitution, and it many recipients are illegal aliens. Seems to me that oftentimes we are too busy getting ready to put down other people on here that we fail to read what they actually say. So sayeth the asshole (who doesn't have much room to speak).

 

[iman]

Clearly you neither read nor understood. I had insurance. He did not.

I read fine. Your friend did not get "free medical care", the rest of us paid for it. I'm shocked that a self proclaimed "libertarian" would find this situation acceptable. If you want to help your friend, maybe you should pay for his medical care?

 

[HenryReardon]

I read fine. Your friend did not get "free medical care", the rest of us paid for it. I'm shocked that a self proclaimed "libertarian" would find this situation acceptable. If you want to help your friend, maybe you should pay for his medical care?

asked, and answered, counselor. topic flogged to death.

 

[bankside]

We all know you're a legend in your own mind. That being said, you haven't trumped anything - all you've done is regurgitated the same old tired lefty crap.

If that makes you feel all smug and superior, knock yourself out. Self-delusion has its uses.

It is interesting that you don't mount an argument to the "tired lefty crap" but instead you change the subject or go all ad-hominem.

Self-delusion may have its uses for you; you're welcome to it. You just aren't welcome to delude me for one, and I hope not others either.

Canada has excellent health care that gives me my choice of doctor, my choice of specialist (at least for any of the specialists I've ever had to see), waiting times that range from 0 to reasonable depending on medical need, a system that on average surpasses the quality of care offered in the states, and unquestionably surpasses the breadth of coverage for the population, all while remaining far far cheaper than in the states, and all with out medical insurance salesmen. I'd gladly pay more for it. You have not even bothered to cite specific examples where the American system probably is better, relying only on general clichés, strawmen, and bogeymen to tar the whole system. If Canada did move to pay as much as the States, I would not only be able to defend it generally, I would guarantee that it would beat the mess in the states for every metric, including some obscure area where the States may currently be ahead.

Bottom line, the public system is a way smarter way to spend the same health care dollar.

 

[HenryReardon]

It is interesting that you don't mount an argument to the "tired lefty crap" but instead you change the subject or go all ad-hominem.

Self-delusion may have its uses for you; you're welcome to it. You just aren't welcome to delude me for one, and I hope not others either.

Canada has excellent health care that gives me my choice of doctor, my choice of specialist (at least for any of the specialists I've ever had to see), waiting times that range from 0 to reasonable depending on medical need, a system that on average surpasses the quality of care offered in the states, and unquestionably surpasses the breadth of coverage for the population, all while remaining far far cheaper than in the states, and all with out medical insurance salesmen. I'd gladly pay more for it. You have not even bothered to cite specific examples where the American system probably is better, relying only on general clichés, strawmen, and bogeymen to tar the whole system. If Canada did move to pay as much as the States, I would not only be able to defend it generally, I would guarantee that it would beat the mess in the states for every metric, including some obscure area where the States may currently be ahead.

Bottom line, the public system is a way smarter way to spend the same health care dollar.

1. Explain then, why Canadians living near the border purchase insurance that allows them to go to the US to receive care they either cannot get or cannot get in a timely manner.

2. Explain then, why some mothers-to-be in Canada come to the US because of the lack of facilities for neo-natal health care.

3. Explain then, why rationing of health car is beginning to be seen in parts of Canada.

BTW I have experienced the full horrors of the Canadian system - went to the emergency room at 5 aM in Quebec City about 11 years ago. One patient ahead of me - just one. They did give me a questionnaire, they did determine that I had funds to pay for services. But after three hours, I left in disgust. I have never seen so many people doing so little and with such a lack of enthusiasm.

 

[andysayshi]

The apparent reality is that the US pays more for health care per-capita, and more as a percentage of GDP, than any other nation on Earth. At the same time, a large number of Americans choose not to seek treatment because they can't afford it.

Americans pay more when they get sick than people in other Western nations and get more confused, error-prone treatment, according to the largest survey to compare U.S. health care with other nations.

The survey of nearly 7,000 sick adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost and more than one-third endured mistakes and disorganized care when they did get treated.

Although patients in every nation sometimes run into obstacles to getting care and deficiencies when they do get treated, the United States stood out for having the highest error rates, most disorganized care and highest costs, the survey found.

"What's striking is that we are clearly a world leader in how much we spend on health care," said Cathy Schoen, senior vice president for the Commonwealth Fund, a private, nonpartisan, nonprofit foundation that commissioned the survey. "We should be expecting to be the best. Clearly, we should be doing better."

Other experts agreed, saying the results offer the most recent evidence that the quality of care in the United States is seriously eroding even as health care costs skyrocket.

Full article here.

As I mentioned above, I've been sick in Australia, England, Denmark, Amsterdam, Saudi Arabia and the US. The US is the only country I truly felt my health was jeopardized by service or funds.

 

[HenryReardon]

The apparent reality is that the US pays more for health care per-capita, and more as a percentage of GDP, than any other nation on Earth. At the same time, a large number of Americans choose not to seek treatment because they can't afford it.


.

The operative word in your opening sentence is "apparent" reality.
The realty is that a large number of Americans choose not to seek treatment out of stupidity and/or ignorance. Health care is there, all one has to do is seek it.

We've all been down this same garden path some time in the past year, why in the world are we doing it yet again.

 

[thermodynamics]

Go Jasun! Run 'em into the ground!

 

[HenryReardon]

So wait a minute...

Maybe they could tell, as we can from the story, that you didn't really need urgent care and were busy with patients who needed real help?

You think?

Once again, you either failed to read or to comprehend.
There was only ONE patient. I watched him being escorted to the elevators while I sat, waiting.

What I had went unchecked, led to chronic bronchitis, and took two months to get rid of, because I didn't receive medical help until I got home several days later. A simple round of medication (about $10 or less today) would have nipped it in the bud.

 

[andysayshi]

Once again, you either failed to read or to comprehend.
There was only ONE patient. I watched him being escorted to the elevators while I sat, waiting.

What I had went unchecked, led to chronic bronchitis, and took two months to get rid of, because I didn't receive medical help until I got home several days later. A simple round of medication (about $10 or less today) would have nipped it in the bud.

You went to an emergency room at 5am for bronchitis? And the condition was SO serious that you managed to wait another 3 days before seeking medical attention in the US?

No offense, but that's what General Practitioners are for. People who use Emergency Rooms for conditions that that can be treated by GPs are actually what CAUSE Emergency Room delays.

 

[andysayshi]

The operative word in your opening sentence is "apparent" reality.
The realty is that a large number of Americans choose not to seek treatment out of stupidity and/or ignorance. Health care is there, all one has to do is seek it.

We've all been down this same garden path some time in the past year, why in the world are we doing it yet again.

My post cited a 7000 person study which found Americans MOST LIKELY to be left with at least $1000 of personal expenses when seeking medical care. More than half of those surveyed went WITHOUT medical treatment because they couldn't afford it.

All of the posts in this thread from you cite ... HenryReardon. This is really a one-sided argument unless you care to support your opinions with facts.

 

[HenryReardon]

You went to an emergency room at 5am for bronchitis? And the condition was SO serious that you managed to wait another 3 days before seeking medical attention in the US?

No offense, but that's what General Practitioners are for. People who use Emergency Rooms for conditions that that can be treated by GPs are actually what CAUSE Emergency Room delays.

That is not what I said.

I had developed a condition (hay fever and drainage from the massive amount of pollen in the air that spring) that I knew from experience would, if left unchecked, lead to bronchitis.

I was in a strange country, it was on the weekend, and as far as I knew there were two choices - go to the ER for a quick fix, or try to call American Express and see if they really had access to doctors abroad as their literature says.

In the event, we had to cancel our flight home and take the train back to Florida at horrendous expense - which involved a bus ride from Montreal to somewhere in the northern wilds of Vermont where an Amtrak train originated. From what little I remember of the journey, a train ride through the length of Vermont in spring reveals some great scenery, but I was too miserable by then to appreciate it.

At home, when the same thing happens - and it does once or twice a year - I call my GP, usually get to see him the same day or at most the next morning, and the problem is dealt with.

In any case, I now know why Canadians who can do so, come to the US for medical care they cannot obtain in a timely manner at home.

 

[HenryReardon]

My post cited a 7000 person study which found Americans MOST LIKELY to be left with at least $1000 of personal expenses when seeking medical care. More than half of those surveyed went WITHOUT medical treatment because they couldn't afford it.

.

Why bother - you've bought into a myth and swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker.

I think, if you were able to dig deeply, you would find that those surveyed chose to go without treatment because they couldn't afford it, which is not the same thing as saying that treatment was not available.

There are safety nets in place, ie., Medicaid etc.

 

[andysayshi]

I think, if you were able to dig deeply, you would find that those surveyed chose to go without treatment because they couldn't afford it, which is not the same thing as saying that treatment was not available.

But you're actually contradicting your own argument. The great advantage of universal medical care is to provide affordable care to those who otherwise cannot afford it. Health care in the US per-person, insured or not, rich or poor, is currently more expensive than anywhere else on Earth. The system as it stands is currently disadvantaging EVERY American, not just those who can't afford healthcare.

 

[HenryReardon]

You, of all people, shouldn't accuse others of buying 'into a myth'. I mean, your response to him is based on what? His was on a study... you just make it up as you go along.

Really, I don't understand people who decide sharing uninformed opinions on the internet, but it's cool. What's really bad are those same people who bash informed opinions because they believe their own uninformed opinion as fact.

So far, I have seen few, if any, informed opinions in this thread. Studies can produce statistics, and you know what they say about statistics.

I learned a long time ago in Stat 101 that any set of data can be manipulated to produce virtually any desired outcome.

My comments have been based upon personal observations and experiences over a period of years and therefore are hardly 'uninformed.'

 

[bankside]

Lots of Canadians travel for boob jobs or penis enlargements or tummy tucks. If you want something frivolous and purely cosmetic, you're on your own. Maybe you can get bargain boobs and a holiday to Texas out of the deal; then you'd go to the states.

I do recall news reports of Canadians travelling to the states for necessary medical care. I also recall that they were sent at government expense due to an unforeseen delay affecting their care at home.

I think it is fair to say that the system here takes delays seriously and the system itself does not tolerate delays, as shown in that they are willing to send you to a foreign country as an emergency measure to ensure you get timely medical care no matter what. Medical care you don't have to pay for.

They aren't in the business of providing holidays, so they have every incentive to ensure the system has the required capacity here. But it is nice to have as an option in the rare case that a backlog develops.

There are some problems. Hip replacements currently have a waiting list because they are too cheap to pay overtime. But a problem like that in the context of a system that works, I can handle. I haven't even heard anything about the problems the States has by comparison, from the "health care=communism league."